The occupy wall-street movement explained.

[Svettypoo]

I want to put this movement into perspective by telling a story so simple that even a liberal could understand it. [i’m just playing, don’t write hateful replies]

The names that are used throughout this narrative are purely fictional.

Three friends, Dumb, Dumber and Smart live in a three person democratic economy with access to internet education. They finish their high-school education and start thinking about what they want to study in university. Dumb decides to do fine arts, Dumber decides to do art history, and Smart decides to study culinary arts at college. They study very hard and finish their degrees with honors. They decide to test their skills in the market. Dumb decides to draw a painting of a shoe. He spends a lot of time and effort getting the exact details of the shoe. Unfortunately, when he is finished, he realizes that nobody is interested in purchasing his painting. There is not a market for such paintings and thus he doesn’t bring benefit to society. Dumber decides to write an editorial describing how dumb’s shoe was influenced by classical painters. Lets not kid ourselves, nobody gives a shit and he doesn’t make any money trying to sell the editorial. Smart makes a pizza eats one third, sells one third to dumb and sells the other to dumber. They can only afford it because they have left over trust fund money from their hard working parents. Next month, Dumb and Dumber are really discouraged by their lack of success selling their work. They decide to abstain from work and protest outside of Smart’s house because he has more money. They feel that they are justified because they went to university and worked just as hard at making the painting of the shoe and writing the editorial. They feel they are entitled to some of smart’s money and pizza. Since Dumb and Dumber don’t understand how culinary arts work, they think that Smart somehow cheated them out of their money. Thus they feel entitled to what Smart owns. Smart makes another pizza, however, this time Dumb and Dumber don’t want to buy it. Instead, they force an election, Dumb and Dumber vote for socialism, while Smart votes for Capitalism. Dumb and Dumber win the election and split up the pizza three ways. Smart says… fuck this… And moves to a fair free market nation. As Dumb and Dumber lay there feeling like victims and starving they think… If only we had BUILT A WALL to keep smart in… Maybe we wouldn’t have this problem…

This story is obviously an oversimplification of today’s economy. And I am in no way condoning letting hipsters starve to death. After all hipsters make excellent baristas and they wouldn’t starve in our economy. They just wouldn’t be able to afford I-phones, I-pads and designer clothes.

All I am trying to say is that most people protesting don’t have a clue at what kind of essential services bankers provide to businesses, corporations and individuals. Ignorance breeds intolerance and this is not an exception.

From a strictly economic sense… Money is like a commodity that you get in return for providing value to somebody. Later this money can be used to buy value from somebody else. Money is essentially a system that facilitates a transfer of value. In a free market, all money you make is directly proportional to the value provided. The only time that this fair value transactions can be disturbed or thrown out of balance is when the government intervenes and picks winners and losers (example: bailing out banks). In such a case, the government would collect funds through taxes and re-appropriate them based on what they feel is best at the time (or who contributed to their campaign). This re-appropriation of funds is inherently flawed since the appropriation is never exactly representative of who provided the funds.

Your have been convinced that republicans are pro bailouts and pro corporatism. If you would listen to any of the tea-party candidates instead of MSNBC you will find exactly the opposite. Republicans are absolutely against government picking winners and losers… like the government picked the banks. Also, if you paid any attention, or knew how the legislative process worked in the USA, you would know that the house of representatives and the senate legislate (not the president). If you paid attention, you would know that in 2006 the democrats took the house and senate by a storm and held onto it until 2010. You would know that all the “stimulus” (bailouts) was voted in by a democrat majority and republican minority, and that more democrats were in favor of the bailouts than republicans. If you paid attention, you would also know that since the republicans took the house in 2010 (not the senate yet), the democrats haven’t been able to pass any more bail outs… despite Obama’s best efforts.

Oh and something else… There is A LOT more to this than I am telling you right now. [I don’t have time to write a libertarian manifesto ATM… too busy with work ]. Do everyone a favor and do some research and stop feeling like a victim. There was a really good thread on here about victim mentality. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=164107 . Read up on it, educate yourself, don’t feel like a victim and help yourself! Good luck mates.

EDIT: Don’t get offended if you are studying art! This is a hypothetical situation.

[nameta9]

The problem with this is that Smart makes a pizza using fewer and fewer people through the huge economies of scale that a Technological Economy provides by optimizing processes, automation, technical advances, using cheap labor worldwide, you name it, because after all, Smart could have used Dumb and Dumber in his company to help out either in production or in marketing “writing nice advertisements” and things like that. But Smart can get along fine (even better!) without any help from Dumb and Dumber and anyone else because the Technological Economy makes it such that you need fewer and fewer people to produce the same products, fewer people to get the same Bang.

So Dumb and Dumber have no choice but to stay at home and watch TV and feel frustrated and angry and envious towards the winner, Smart, winner takes all and gets all, Dumb and Dumber remain simply pissed off losers, a failure, have no value (as in they provide no exchange value to society), are failed entities, should just go away and die. But they decide to fight and there you get your protesters.

But especially, there are two really big problems with your description:

1. Dumb and Dumber have been told since they were children that “going to college”, “studying”, etc. would land them a good job since we now live in an advanced “service economy”, “information economy”, we need thinking people, all kinds of fluff, etc. since technology has been eliminating the need for real labor. But at the end of their studies everyone tells them “guess what, the rules have changed, we no longer need you or anyone else, go fly a kite”. So they have been deceived, lied to, someone told a bunch of lies somewhere down the road.

2. There are only a few valuable things that people can do, you can make a Pizza, furnish Electricity, build a House, maybe 100 or 200 or 500 really useful, valuable, objectively valuable things that can been done, and only so many people can “work” in these really objective, valuable endeavors (worldwide maybe 500 million ? but the labor force is maybe 2 billion people …). What are all of the other hundreds of millions of Dumb and Dumber and even simply “obsolete computer programmers (since they are over 40 years old and in that field anyone over 40 who is still programming is considered a failure)” worldwide going to do ?

So, as I said in:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176846

They should ask for a very simple program:

1. Furnish Cheap Rents aligned with minimum salary all over the world but especially in New York City, Los Angeles, Paris, Tokyo, London, Moscow, etc. the real big cities where all the jobs are and where the real estate hogs, the rich, the capitalists and the pure aggressive people and market forces express all their power and all their desire to inflict pain and use their money and wealth as a weapon by pumping up the prices of real estate and rents disregarding the fact that a house is a basic right, a basic need, not an option: so in New York City there should be many apartments and houses available at 200 dollars a month since the minimum salary is 800 dollars a month, same all over the world.

2. Get rid of the profit motive, money doesn’t need to gain value as in profit, use it only for what you need.

3. Furnish a Free Salary to all until they find a “job” but mostly get rid of the concept of jobs, these are no longer needed, the Technological Economy has rendered work and jobs an obsolete concept so just give out Free Salaries of 800 dollars a month to all, end of story.

4. Build Skyscrapers and Rockets to Mars and such, keep people busy with huge large scale public - private projects.

Oh, I forgot, Man is a huge turd, is hopeless, is a total failure, understands only conflict, war and fight and status challenge, gets bored if the world is logical and equality between people is achieved, the very meaning and existence of money is an expression of power and the potential and desire to show how powerful someone is compared to another, money and wealth is a weapon the richer use to beat up the poorer, oh I forgot, there is no hope at all, just everyone kill each other off, end of story, turds.

Now, go on wall street and show the sign with all of the above written on it and fight and beat up anyone who disagrees…

[Svettypoo]

What I am saying is that government shouldn’t subsidize the bad decisions of Dumb and Dumber. By splitting up the pizza equally, dumb and dumber would have no incentive to actually make a contribution to society. If the government refuses to subsidize them and they see that what they are doing isn’t useful to anyone, Dumb could decide to re specialize and engineer the machines that smart uses in his pizzeria and dumber could do both of their taxes, thus allowing htem to specialize at what they are doing further.

Also, a profit motive isn’t inherently evil. You have to think of money as commodity. Imagine that the currency is bricks. Consider that Dumb is also in the business of producing bricks. (the action of producing bricks is not considered counterfeiting in this economy) Dumb produces 20 bricks a year. But in order to acquire the materials and cover all of his expenses he needs 25 bricks. By losing bricks every year he is reducing the total number of bricks in circulation and hurting the economy. However, if he were to run his business very efficiently and reduce his expenses to 15 bricks, he would be able to put an additional 5 bricks into circulation, thus benefiting the economy because everybody will be able to build houses for winter time.

Money was created to facilitate trade of commodities. At a certain point in time it simply became unconventional to carry around sacks of grain. All money represents is the transfer of value when you provide a service… maximizing your profit is essentially maximizing the value that you’ve created (dollars in our case, bricks in Dumb’s case.)

[Svettypoo]

@nameta9

They should ask for a very simple program:

1. Furnish Cheap Rents aligned with minimum salary all over the world but especially in New York City, Los Angeles, Paris, Tokyo, London, Moscow, etc. the real big cities where all the jobs are and where the real estate hogs, the rich, the capitalists and the pure aggressive people and market forces express all their power and all their desire to inflict pain and use their money and wealth as a weapon by pumping up the prices of real estate and rents disregarding the fact that a house is a basic right, a basic need, not an option: so in New York City there should be many apartments and houses available at 200 dollars a month since the minimum salary is 800 dollars a month, same all over the world.

2. Get rid of the profit motive, money doesn’t need to gain value as in profit, use it only for what you need.

3. Furnish a Free Salary to all until they find a “job” but mostly get rid of the concept of jobs, these are no longer needed, the Technological Economy has rendered work and jobs an obsolete concept so just give out Free Salaries of 800 dollars a month to all, end of story.

4. Build Skyscrapers and Rockets to Mars and such, keep people busy with huge large scale public - private projects.

Oh, I forgot, Man is a huge turd, is hopeless, is a total failure, understands only conflict, war and fight and status challenge, gets bored if the world is logical and equality between people is achieved, the very meaning and existence of money is an expression of power and the potential and desire to show how powerful someone is compared to another, money and wealth is a weapon the richer use to beat up the poorer, oh I forgot, there is no hope at all, just everyone kill each other off, end of story, turds.

Now, go on wall street and show the sign with all of the above written on it and fight and beat up anyone who disagrees…

I disagree with large scale public projects because I don’t think taxation without representation is fair. If an individual doesn’t want a certain service from the government I don’t think its fair to force him to pay for it. Or if somebody doesn’t believe that going to the Moon and Mars has any use, I don’t think they should be forced by the US government to pay taxes for programs that aim to do that. People that are interested in such endeavors should be encouraged and allowed to make contributions… but not forced.

[nameta9]

@Svettypoo

What I am saying is that government shouldn’t subsidize the bad decisions of Dumb and Dumber. By splitting up the pizza equally, dumb and dumber would have no incentive to actually make a contribution to society. If the government refuses to subsidize them and they see that what they are doing isn’t useful to anyone, Dumb could decide to re specialize and engineer the machines that smart uses in his pizzeria and dumber could do both of their taxes, thus allowing htem to specialize at what they are doing further.

But you are not addressing the two real problems, namely :

1. what are you going to do with millions of people “who studied the wrong stuff”, or were “too lazy or stupid to study engineering (although it seems that even engineers are not in great demand anymore, etc.)”

and

2. how many people can a highly efficient, Technological Economy really employ gainfully (since isn’t that what all the BS on “Increasing Innovation”, “Increasing Productivity” and “Increasing Competitiveness” is really all about since those three improvements mean doing more with less, doing more with less cost (hence salaries) getting the same or a bigger bang with the same or fewer inputs, hence less workers needed no matter how you look at it), not many from what I can see, so the Technological Economy simply doesn’t need many workers from the outset, “Structurally” no matter how you try to slice and dice it and convince yourselves or others that there are all of these new “service jobs” needed, all of these “manufacturing jobs” needed, all of these “Innovation and Information Workers Needed” (when actually the value and worth of Information is collapsing because it is all available, for free and in a never ending amount from the Internet, etc.). Sure you can create and invent Fluff Jobs by the boatloads, just like the banks and corporations still do (otherwise you would honestly have to lay off a few million more middle class jobs that aren’t producing anything anyways), but they are optional, just place holders, when the bank needs to make some extra cash simply lay off a few thousands of “workers” since they weren’t needed in the first place, (and then complain that they are simply doing fluff work, something that has “no value”) etc.

Now go on, tell the kids to “go back to college and study something useful” (only to be told 4 years later, once again, “the rules have changed, you guessed wrong again, Dumbo and Dumbero, (become a dentist or a lawyer ?)”) or tell them that it is “their fault” that they have “nothing valuable to offer” and not that it is the “system’s fault”, structurally, because the system is tuned to eliminate jobs and not create them no matter what.

And even if everyone became dentists and lawyers, those jobs would quickly saturate too, so then what ?

Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, Rockets to Mars, that is what.

[zacchaeus]

@Svettypoo

I want to put this movement into perspective by telling a story so simple that even a liberal could understand it. [i’m just playing, don’t write hateful replies]

The names that are used throughout this narrative are purely fictional.

Three friends, Dumb, Dumber and Smart live in a three person democratic economy with access to internet education. They finish their high-school education and start thinking about what they want to study in university. Dumb decides to do fine arts, Dumber decides to do art history, and Smart decides to study culinary arts at college. They study very hard and finish their degrees with honors. They decide to test their skills in the market. Dumb decides to draw a painting of a shoe. He spends a lot of time and effort getting the exact details of the shoe. Unfortunately, when he is finished, he realizes that nobody is interested in purchasing his painting. There is not a market for such paintings and thus he doesn’t bring benefit to society. Dumber decides to write an editorial describing how dumb’s shoe was influenced by classical painters. Lets not kid ourselves, nobody gives a shit and he doesn’t make any money trying to sell the editorial. Smart makes a pizza eats one third, sells one third to dumb and sells the other to dumber. They can only afford it because they have left over trust fund money from their hard working parents. Next month, Dumb and Dumber are really discouraged by their lack of success selling their work. They decide to abstain from work and protest outside of Smart’s house because he has more money. They feel that they are justified because they went to university and worked just as hard at making the painting of the shoe and writing the editorial. They feel they are entitled to some of smart’s money and pizza. Since Dumb and Dumber don’t understand how culinary arts work, they think that Smart somehow cheated them out of their money. Thus they feel entitled to what Smart owns. Smart makes another pizza, however, this time Dumb and Dumber don’t want to buy it. Instead, they force an election, Dumb and Dumber vote for socialism, while Smart votes for Capitalism. Dumb and Dumber win the election and split up the pizza three ways. Smart says… fuck this… And moves to a fair free market nation. As Dumb and Dumber lay there feeling like victims and starving they think… If only we had BUILT A WALL to keep smart in… Maybe we wouldn’t have this problem…

This story is obviously an oversimplification of today’s economy. And I am in no way condoning letting hipsters starve to death. After all hipsters make excellent baristas and they wouldn’t starve in our economy. They just wouldn’t be able to afford I-phones, I-pads and designer clothes.

All I am trying to say is that most people protesting don’t have a clue at what kind of essential services bankers provide to businesses, corporations and individuals. Ignorance breeds intolerance and this is not an exception.

From a strictly economic sense… Money is like a commodity that you get in return for providing value to somebody. Later this money can be used to buy value from somebody else. All money is essentially is a system that facilitates a transfer of value. In a free market, all money you make is directly proportional to the value provided. The only time that this fair value transactions can be disturbed and thrown out of balance is when the government intervenes and picks winners and losers (example: bailing out banks). In such a case, the government would collect funds through taxes and re-appropriate them based on what they feel is best at the time (or who contributed to their campaign). This re-appropriation of funds is inherently flawed since the appropriation is never exactly representative of who provided the funds.

Your have been convinced that republicans are pro bailouts and pro corporatism. If you would listen to any of the tea-party candidates instead of MSNBC you will find exactly the opposite. Republicans are absolutely against government picking winners and losers… like the government picked the banks. Also, if you paid any attention, or knew how the legislative process worked in the USA, you would know that the house of representatives and the senate legislate (not the president). If you paid attention, you would know that in 2006 the democrats too the house and senate by a storm and held onto it until 2010. You would know that all the “stimulus” (bailouts) was voted in by a democrat majority and republican minority, and that more democrats were in favor of the bailouts than republicans. If you paid attention, you would also know that since the republicans took the house in 2010 (not the senate yet), the democrats haven’t been able to pass any more bail outs… despite Obama’s best efforts.

Oh and something else… There is A LOT more to this than I am telling you right now. [I don’t have time to write a libertarian manifesto ATM… too busy with work ]. Do everyone a favor and do some research and stop feeling like a victim. There was a really good thread on here about victim mentality. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=164107 . Read up on it, educate yourself, don’t feel like a victim and help yourself! Good luck mates.

It’s not just the economy, it’s kind of everything. Imagine if you will . . .

Dumb and Dumber do manage to market their skills. They earn a living, not a fortune, but enough to get by. But they notice something. At the end of each month their uncle Sam comes along and says “gimme 30% of your money or go to prison!”. Uncle Sam then goes to Smart and says “Sorry to bother you Mr Smart Sir, but would you be willing to pay the amount we agreed you would pay by way of a contribution to help look after all the nasty, common, poor people. We’d be very much obliged if you did”. Smart turns to his army of corporate lawyers and accountants who tell Uncle Sam that (due to certain perfectly legal tax avoidance techniques for which Smart pays them handsomely to use) Mr. Smart will only be paying 10% of his money to Uncle Sam. To which Uncle Sam replies “thank you kindly Mr. Smart for such generosity and PLEASE DONT RELOCATE YOUR HEADQUARTERS TO ASIA”.

Meanwhile D&D have noticed certain laws they don’t like and would benefit from improvement. So they go to Uncle Sam and say “Hey, could we change these laws that we don’t like, and btw here’s the names of 10,000 other people think X,Y and Z would be an improvement” to which Uncle Sam replies “Piss Off!”. Smart goes to Uncle Sam and says “hmm I don’t like these laws, can we change them to A, B and C, and btw here is 10 million dollars to help you decide”. “Consider it done Mr. Smart” says Uncle Sam. “Hold on” says D&D we’re The People™, Uncle Sam is supposed to work for our benefit". Smart and Uncle Sam reply together “Piss Off!”. “And by the way” Uncle Sam says, next month you’ll pay me 40% or prison you little turds" as both he and Smart walk off together laughing.

At this point something happens in D&D’s heads. “Smart earns more than us, but pays less than us by sending the wealth he accumulates to foreign tax havens, thus generating even more wealth. He then uses that wealth to influence politicians who introduce laws that aim to increase his wealth even further. Uncle Sam, who is meant to be working for us, is instead in league with Smart, and we are being shafted by BOTH of them!”. At which point Dumb and Dumber legally change their names to Angry and Angrier.

[Gobbo]

I wish people would just educate themselves about fiat banking.

[user6]

@Old_Gobbo

I wish people would just educate themselves about fiat banking.

Isn’t it just fiat monetary systems in general?

[Gobbo]

No.

Fiat banking is a method of control which allows (English) bankers to arbitrarily create and cut off money out of thin air. It’s one-sided and history has shown it’s nothing more than a ponzy scheme.

[user6]

@Old_Gobbo

No.

Fiat banking is a method of control which allows (English) bankers to arbitrarily create and cut off money out of thin air. It’s one-sided and history has shown it’s nothing more than a ponzy scheme.

Yeah… but is it just bankers in England? I was pretty sure it was the entire financial structure worldwide…

[Svettypoo]

@Old_Gobbo

I wish people would just educate themselves about fiat banking.

@Old_Gobbo

Fiat banking is a method of control which allows (English) bankers to arbitrarily create and cut off money out of thin air. It’s one-sided and history has shown it’s nothing more than a ponzy scheme.

Have you educated yourself as to why the fiat system is better than a barter and trade system? If you haven’t, just let me know and I will be willing to shed some light on the issue.

[Svettypoo]

@zacchaeus

@Svettypoo

I want to put this movement into perspective by telling a story so simple that even a liberal could understand it. [i’m just playing, don’t write hateful replies]

The names that are used throughout this narrative are purely fictional.

Three friends, Dumb, Dumber and Smart live in a three person democratic economy with access to internet education. They finish their high-school education and start thinking about what they want to study in university. Dumb decides to do fine arts, Dumber decides to do art history, and Smart decides to study culinary arts at college. They study very hard and finish their degrees with honors. They decide to test their skills in the market. Dumb decides to draw a painting of a shoe. He spends a lot of time and effort getting the exact details of the shoe. Unfortunately, when he is finished, he realizes that nobody is interested in purchasing his painting. There is not a market for such paintings and thus he doesn’t bring benefit to society. Dumber decides to write an editorial describing how dumb’s shoe was influenced by classical painters. Lets not kid ourselves, nobody gives a shit and he doesn’t make any money trying to sell the editorial. Smart makes a pizza eats one third, sells one third to dumb and sells the other to dumber. They can only afford it because they have left over trust fund money from their hard working parents. Next month, Dumb and Dumber are really discouraged by their lack of success selling their work. They decide to abstain from work and protest outside of Smart’s house because he has more money. They feel that they are justified because they went to university and worked just as hard at making the painting of the shoe and writing the editorial. They feel they are entitled to some of smart’s money and pizza. Since Dumb and Dumber don’t understand how culinary arts work, they think that Smart somehow cheated them out of their money. Thus they feel entitled to what Smart owns. Smart makes another pizza, however, this time Dumb and Dumber don’t want to buy it. Instead, they force an election, Dumb and Dumber vote for socialism, while Smart votes for Capitalism. Dumb and Dumber win the election and split up the pizza three ways. Smart says… fuck this… And moves to a fair free market nation. As Dumb and Dumber lay there feeling like victims and starving they think… If only we had BUILT A WALL to keep smart in… Maybe we wouldn’t have this problem…

This story is obviously an oversimplification of today’s economy. And I am in no way condoning letting hipsters starve to death. After all hipsters make excellent baristas and they wouldn’t starve in our economy. They just wouldn’t be able to afford I-phones, I-pads and designer clothes.

All I am trying to say is that most people protesting don’t have a clue at what kind of essential services bankers provide to businesses, corporations and individuals. Ignorance breeds intolerance and this is not an exception.

From a strictly economic sense… Money is like a commodity that you get in return for providing value to somebody. Later this money can be used to buy value from somebody else. All money is essentially is a system that facilitates a transfer of value. In a free market, all money you make is directly proportional to the value provided. The only time that this fair value transactions can be disturbed and thrown out of balance is when the government intervenes and picks winners and losers (example: bailing out banks). In such a case, the government would collect funds through taxes and re-appropriate them based on what they feel is best at the time (or who contributed to their campaign). This re-appropriation of funds is inherently flawed since the appropriation is never exactly representative of who provided the funds.

Your have been convinced that republicans are pro bailouts and pro corporatism. If you would listen to any of the tea-party candidates instead of MSNBC you will find exactly the opposite. Republicans are absolutely against government picking winners and losers… like the government picked the banks. Also, if you paid any attention, or knew how the legislative process worked in the USA, you would know that the house of representatives and the senate legislate (not the president). If you paid attention, you would know that in 2006 the democrats too the house and senate by a storm and held onto it until 2010. You would know that all the “stimulus” (bailouts) was voted in by a democrat majority and republican minority, and that more democrats were in favor of the bailouts than republicans. If you paid attention, you would also know that since the republicans took the house in 2010 (not the senate yet), the democrats haven’t been able to pass any more bail outs… despite Obama’s best efforts.

Oh and something else… There is A LOT more to this than I am telling you right now. [I don’t have time to write a libertarian manifesto ATM… too busy with work ]. Do everyone a favor and do some research and stop feeling like a victim. There was a really good thread on here about victim mentality. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=164107 . Read up on it, educate yourself, don’t feel like a victim and help yourself! Good luck mates.

It’s not just the economy, it’s kind of everything. Imagine if you will . . .

Dumb and Dumber do manage to market their skills. They earn a living, not a fortune, but enough to get by. But they notice something. At the end of each month their uncle Sam comes along and says “gimme 30% of your money or go to prison!”. Uncle Sam then goes to Smart and says “Sorry to bother you Mr Smart Sir, but would you be willing to pay the amount we agreed you would pay by way of a contribution to help look after all the nasty, common, poor people. We’d be very much obliged if you did”. Smart turns to his army of corporate lawyers and accountants who tell Uncle Sam that (due to certain perfectly legal tax avoidance techniques for which Smart pays them handsomely to use) Mr. Smart will only be paying 10% of his money to Uncle Sam. To which Uncle Sam replies “thank you kindly Mr. Smart for such generosity and PLEASE DONT RELOCATE YOUR HEADQUARTERS TO ASIA”.

Meanwhile D&D have noticed certain laws they don’t like and would benefit from improvement. So they go to Uncle Sam and say “Hey, could we change these laws that we don’t like, and btw here’s the names of 10,000 other people think X,Y and Z would be an improvement” to which Uncle Sam replies “Piss Off!”. Smart goes to Uncle Sam and says “hmm I don’t like these laws, can we change them to A, B and C, and btw here is 10 million dollars to help you decide”. “Consider it done Mr. Smart” says Uncle Sam. “Hold on” says D&D we’re The People™, Uncle Sam is supposed to work for our benefit". Smart and Uncle Sam reply together “Piss Off!”. “And by the way” Uncle Sam says, next month you’ll pay me 40% or prison you little turds" as both he and Smart walk off together laughing.

At this point something happens in D&D’s heads. “Smart earns more than us, but pays less than us by sending the wealth he accumulates to foreign tax havens, thus generating even more wealth. He then uses that wealth to influence politicians who introduce laws that aim to increase his wealth even further. Uncle Sam, who is meant to be working for us, is instead in league with Smart, and we are being shafted by BOTH of them!”. At which point Dumb and Dumber legally change their names to Angry and Angrier.

You got it backwards. Dumb and dumber didn’t pay any income taxes because they didn’t create any value. Smart paid 100% of the income tax.

In our society, the bottom 50% pays 3% of the income taxes while the top 1% pays 40% of the income taxes and the top 5% pays 60% of the income taxes. ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html
Smart has it even worse… he carries 100% of the tax burden.

[aronofsky40]

@Svettypoo

In our society, the bottom 50% pays 3% of the income taxes while the top 1% pays 40% of the income taxes and the top 5% pays 60% of the income taxes. ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html
Smart has it even worse… he carries 100% of the tax burden.

This is basically how it should be except that the top should pay more than 40-60% of all income taxes.

[Gobbo]

@Svettypoo

@Old_Gobbo

I wish people would just educate themselves about fiat banking.

@Old_Gobbo

Fiat banking is a method of control which allows (English) bankers to arbitrarily create and cut off money out of thin air. It’s one-sided and history has shown it’s nothing more than a ponzy scheme.

Have you educated yourself as to why the fiat system is better than a barter and trade system? If you haven’t, just let me know and I will be willing to shed some light on the issue.

I’m not suggesting we barter and trade. We can have money without giving all control for that money over to white crusties.

This guy’s comment sort of proves my point: people just assume that ‘money’ is the fiat system; it’s not. Look at lincoln and kennedy; they understood that. The talking heads either know this and play dumb to keep their jobs or they just are uninformed. The fed ain’t federal. It’s a ponzy scheme.

[user6]

Flat tax rate. If you make 2,000,000 a year, you could subtract a “bottom 50%” individual’s annual salary and barely feel it.

Not to mention the government is giving a gated community a hell of a lot more protection than your average ghetto. Hell, if I’m packing heat to protect myself as a necessity, I damn well better get tax breaks.

[Innovice]

@nameta9

@Svettypoo

What I am saying is that government shouldn’t subsidize the bad decisions of Dumb and Dumber. By splitting up the pizza equally, dumb and dumber would have no incentive to actually make a contribution to society. If the government refuses to subsidize them and they see that what they are doing isn’t useful to anyone, Dumb could decide to re specialize and engineer the machines that smart uses in his pizzeria and dumber could do both of their taxes, thus allowing htem to specialize at what they are doing further.

But you are not addressing the two real problems, namely :

1. what are you going to do with millions of people “who studied the wrong stuff”, or were “too lazy or stupid to study engineering (although it seems that even engineers are not in great demand anymore, etc.)”

and

2. how many people can a highly efficient, Technological Economy really employ gainfully (since isn’t that what all the BS on “Increasing Innovation”, “Increasing Productivity” and “Increasing Competitiveness” is really all about since those three improvements mean doing more with less, doing more with less cost (hence salaries) getting the same or a bigger bang with the same or fewer inputs, hence less workers needed no matter how you look at it), not many from what I can see, so the Technological Economy simply doesn’t need many workers from the outset, “Structurally” no matter how you try to slice and dice it and convince yourselves or others that there are all of these new “service jobs” needed, all of these “manufacturing jobs” needed, all of these “Innovation and Information Workers Needed” (when actually the value and worth of Information is collapsing because it is all available, for free and in a never ending amount from the Internet, etc.). Sure you can create and invent Fluff Jobs by the boatloads, just like the banks and corporations still do (otherwise you would honestly have to lay off a few million more middle class jobs that aren’t producing anything anyways), but they are optional, just place holders, when the bank needs to make some extra cash simply lay off a few thousands of “workers” since they weren’t needed in the first place, (and then complain that they are simply doing fluff work, something that has “no value”) etc.

Now go on, tell the kids to “go back to college and study something useful” (only to be told 4 years later, once again, “the rules have changed, you guessed wrong again, Dumbo and Dumbero, (become a dentist or a lawyer ?)”) or tell them that it is “their fault” that they have “nothing valuable to offer” and not that it is the “system’s fault”, structurally, because the system is tuned to eliminate jobs and not create them no matter what.

And even if everyone became dentists and lawyers, those jobs would quickly saturate too, so then what ?

Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, Rockets to Mars, that is what.

Well if we take away the pizza and give it to Dumb and Dumber, isn’t this doing the same thing? It’s saying “the rules have changed, you guessed wrong again Smart.”

[Svettypoo]

@Old_Gobbo

@Svettypoo

@Old_Gobbo

I wish people would just educate themselves about fiat banking.

@Old_Gobbo

Fiat banking is a method of control which allows (English) bankers to arbitrarily create and cut off money out of thin air. It’s one-sided and history has shown it’s nothing more than a ponzy scheme.

Have you educated yourself as to why the fiat system is better than a barter and trade system? If you haven’t, just let me know and I will be willing to shed some light on the issue.

I’m not suggesting we barter and trade. We can have money without giving all control for that money over to white crusties.

This guy’s comment sort of proves my point: people just assume that ‘money’ is the fiat system; it’s not. Look at lincoln and kennedy; they understood that. The talking heads either know this and play dumb to keep their jobs or they just are uninformed. The fed ain’t federal. It’s a ponzy scheme.

There are three main systems… barter and trade, commodity based currency, fiat currency. Which one do you support? (or were you thinking of another system?)

[Svettypoo]

@MathIsACircle

Flat tax rate. If you make 2,000,000 a year, you could subtract a “bottom 50%” individual’s annual salary and barely feel it.

Not to mention the government is giving a gated community a hell of a lot more protection than your average ghetto. Hell, if I’m packing heat to protect myself as a necessity, I damn well better get tax breaks.

Do you honestly see cop cars roaming the gated community more than the ghetto?

[Innovice]

So guys… I did everything I was supposed to. I got good grades. Went to college.

And guess what guys… I picked one of the better options. I’m a software engineer. I make way more money than most people my age.

I can sit here and tell you that it’s luck… and it partly is.

But i’d prefer to tell you about every little fucktard who picked on me for raising my hand in elementary school. If any of you are at these protests, go fuck yourself please.

Or I can tell you about the people who used to tell me that my interests in computers made me a nerd. Perhaps it does, but guess what, I’m doing pretty well now… go fuck yourself.

Or I could tell you about the kids in college who actually got to drink beer all week … if any of you are at these protests… go fuck yourself.

Or i could tell you about other kids and teachers in college who said that “my paper wasn’t good because it wasn’t long enough”, even though it was concise, and got the point across (better in my eyes)… yeah yo ucan go fuck yourself too.

Or i could go tell you about every coworker i’ve met who has told me “oh you’re just starting out, you wont get to do that soon”… if you are at the protests… go fuck yourself

Reality is, everyone is in it for themselves first, those close to them next, and everyone else… it was exemplified growing up, and its exemplified now with the protests…

So what’s this? You did everything you were “supposed to” and still didnt’ get what you want?? OMG RLY??? WELCOME TO LIFE

To be fair, it took me 20 something years to realize this as well

So now I have to pay for things I don’t use… for other people to use basically. These other people will use it inefficiently. And they’ll attack me while they’re doing it, because I’m just trying to the best I can for myself?

Yup, its the way the world works.

So I will go to work every day, try my hardest every day, put up with with Dumb and Dumber because i have no choice, and won’t care at all if you don’t work another day in your life. I’ll be okay

Or you’ll be successful with your unorganized motives, successfully get subsidized art jobs at the expense of the american taxpayer. My years of hard work will go down the drain. So you can paint. And no one will buy those paintings… yeah go fuck yourself

I’ll still be okay

[user6]

@Svettypoo

@MathIsACircle

Flat tax rate. If you make 2,000,000 a year, you could subtract a “bottom 50%” individual’s annual salary and barely feel it.

Not to mention the government is giving a gated community a hell of a lot more protection than your average ghetto. Hell, if I’m packing heat to protect myself as a necessity, I damn well better get tax breaks.

Do you honestly see cop cars roaming the gated community more than the ghetto?

No, but I see more drug related arrests in the less-privileged areas despite high drug rates (especially in teens) in upper-middle class communities. Do you see something wrong with a flat tax-rate? Because that was the serious part of the post. If I wanted to be serious I could point out that substantial, healthy food costs a lot more than McDonald’s; that the upper-middle class child is going to have a much greater chance of getting through school than the underprivileged and that these more privileged children are going to visit, on average, “nicer” schools with more opportunities–are going to reap more benefit on average than their underprivileged equivalent. I could point out that in the St. Petersburg Police Department’s parking lot, hundreds of squad cars sit unused at any given time–very expensive cars. But really, all I wanted to say was that I think a flat tax rate would be fair. Sorry.