the origins of ‘life’ the universe and popcorn.

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
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the origins of ‘life’ the universe and popcorn.

recently people have been asking a lot about creation myths and the origins of life. most or all religions have creation myths so mind if i make my own up?

here are some ideas to bounce off of, i would like to hear yours too!

as you can take part of a tree, plant it and it will grow into another, and as there is a kind of fish of which when the male copulates with the female, it then sticks to the side of her body and dissolves leaving only spermsacks, and as we are made up of billions of life-forms, then; obviously we cannot see ‘life’ as individualistic?

then as when life began it was only chemicals which formed the building blocks of life, and that one period is no different to another they just have a different configuration, we must ask if life is something universal? …or if it is nothing at all.

so it ends up a bit like being or awareness, we either go with the materialist and say they don’t exist, which frankly i find ridiculous, or we say that these things belong to a non material ‘pool’ which is indistinct.
we can ‘know’ that life, being etc are real to us but are they real to reality.

fundamentally and prior to this question, we must ask if reality allows for such a thing. i would say that the universe is only a fraction of reality it cannot be the whole, as there are only examples of fractions, there are no examples of ‘wholes’ as everything is part of something else.

this leaves us with a reality map where nothing can define the entirely and it cannot ever be a whole thing. more importantly it declares that the material is not entire!

so now we may look for that which is not material and yet seemingly present e.g. life/aliveness, being, awareness/consciousness.

perhaps the greater reality simply allows for absolutely anything to exist [being infinite], otherwise you have to have something which stops a given thing from existing. the universe is simply everything which is material forming its existence, along with that are all things which are non material yet related to it.

fundamentally there must be universal ‘entities’* [in the very widest expression of the meaning of the term*] which form the building blocks of all that follows. things like life, energy, mind, intelligence [patterns and processes]. equally as these universals have no edges as such, we may break them down further into a single homogenous entity which is neither of these things and yet may be all of them and none of them.

universal formula for all of the above…

IT = EITHER, NEITHER AND ALL

now we understand the building blocks [and even if we disagree], by what are you ‘you’?

something is governing all of this, mostly things govern themselves, yet when an arrangement of things are brought together it makes for a product of the amalgamated universals and elements. this product can direct its composition to some degree although it is mainly self determined.

the product though is non material

so now comes the question, which comes first the cave or the mist which flows into it ~ where the mist is material reality, and the cave is the blueprint or archetype of a given thing.

oh and btw, the ‘popcorn’ thing was an analogy of things coming into shape where the nature of said thing already exists in archetypical form. …a bit like plato’s forms, but perhaps more metaphoric, erm or reality is metaphoric to said forms scratches head.

if we stopped making popcorn the idea would remain. if we had never made popcorn, the idea would remain. all ideas exist.

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quetzalcoatl:
if we stopped making popcorn the idea would remain. if we had never made popcorn, the idea would remain. all ideas exist."

K: all ideas exist but so what? For example, we have ideas that exist but don’t really matter.
For thousands of years, millions of people worshiped Isis and Ra. The ideas exist, but if no one
believes, where does that leave the idea of Isis and Ra? It is simply a historical idea that has no value of any kind except
in a comparative religions class or ancient history class. Every hear of mercantilism? It was the premier economic ideal for
decades and where does it exist today? Musty old classrooms. Just because an idea exist does not give it value or worth.
It is not about the idea per se but about the value of the idea that matters.

Kropotkin

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peter, hi

what i mean is that the idea exists in universal origins and that is why we can find such ideas. it doesn’t matter if ideas endure, just that they are. they form part of the greater process, sure we go from one to another, however in a manner, you cannot go to ‘2’ prior to going to ‘1’. hence like cogs in a machine everything is of equal importance.

good point though.

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K: all ideas exist but so what? For example, we have ideas that exist but don’t really matter.
For thousands of years, millions of people worshiped Isis and Ra. The ideas exist, but if no one
believes, where does that leave the idea of Isis and Ra? It is simply a historical idea that has no value of any kind except
in a comparative religions class or ancient history class. Every hear of mercantilism? It was the premier economic ideal for
decades and where does it exist today? Musty old classrooms. Just because an idea exist does not give it value or worth.
It is not about the idea per se but about the value of the idea that matters."

Q: what i mean is that the idea exists in universal origins and that is why we can find such ideas. it doesn’t matter if ideas endure, just that they are. they form part of the greater process, sure we go from one to another, however in a manner, you cannot go to ‘2’ prior to going to ‘1’. hence like cogs in a machine everything is of equal importance.

K: ummmm, idea’s exist in universal origins? Ok, try this, what idea has universal consent or universal approval?
Is acknowledge universally?

Kropotkin

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that the universe is universal, that human beings are human beings, that popcorn is popcorn. there are many but that is not the point, the realm of ideas do not seek nor need approval they like potentiality just are. thats how i see it anyway, i just feel that an object must have an environment conducive to its nature, so if anything exists, its potential must first.

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K: ummmm, idea’s exist in universal origins? Ok, try this, what idea has universal consent or universal approval?
Is acknowledge universally?"

Q: that the universe is universal, that human beings are human beings, that popcorn is popcorn. there are many but that is not the point, the realm of ideas do not seek nor need approval they like potentiality just are. thats how i see it anyway, i just feel that an object must have an environment conducive to its nature, so if anything exists, its potential must first."

K: frankly, I have no idea where you are going with this or what point you are making.

Kropotkin

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‘tis not the main gusto of the thread, but it is like plato’s world of forms. here i am adding that to all the other universal originating elements [life, energy, mind, awareness knowledge/forms] ~ if you will.

no worries if it doesn’t interest you.

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I don’t think it follows from your discussion that there must be universals akin to Platonic forms. What more closely follows from your discussion, however, is that there is a “design” to the universe! You make a big leap from universals to the fact that they must exist in a “extra-mental” reality. If you’ve successfully concluded that there “are” universals, these universals may not be “extra-mentally real” but instead the blueprints of a design, an idea in the mind of the designer or designers.

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Ignore all the solipsist, material responses you will get to this.

You write very well and are very clear minded.

Some words that spring to mind: reality; perfect; source; sun; light; life; mirror; reflection; contingent; material; illusion; shadow.

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rasava, hi

hmm you could be right, a blueprint would describe it better or are we considering ‘form over function’ in which case ideas like ‘life’ or ‘aliveness’ would simply be a nature of reality that is not material yet blends with the material.

alpha, hi

thank you :slight_smile:

are you considering those words as universals? i think many of them would work but some would go into a more general category e.g. sun - light - reflection. or did i mistake what you meant?

illusion does not exist as i see it, whatever we experience is some kind of reality, it may be a false impression yet is still a reality.

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No you understood what I meant.

Illusion would be a name of a ‘real’ entity.

It is real relative to itself and other entities frequenting the same level of reality.

It would be less real than a higher entity and this is why it would be named an ‘illusion’. It is a relative term (demonstrating its relatively lesser reality in comparison to higher realities).

It is based on the notion that being is graded.

The shadows on the wall of Plato’s cave are ‘illusions’ relative to the source of light, at the other end of the cave, however remain absolutely real relative to themselves, and the captives who cannot comprehend the source…

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Sure, this could follow as well from your discussion. This would be a sort of Spinozan view that ideas are just another mode for expressing substance. But to assert an extra-mental reality for these things, you’d need to add some more to your post as it currently stands.

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alpha

interesting thought. i consider it so to, in fact i think a trained imagination is a very powerful tool. it can utilise archetypes in many different ways e.g. i used to use the tarot, now i just visualise it and/or look for signs.

it is funny how accommodating reality becomes, when you start doing this, all of nature etc seams to give you info, birds fly out of the trees and sit right in front of you to deliver messages etc etc

perhaps more levels/grades of perception than levels of reality? e.g. in visions one can enter such otherworldly realms ~ there is no iron floor imho. when we die we simply stop perceiving the earthly realm as prominent.

such illusions of light can show a juxtaposition between worlds, i mean what exactly is it that we see anyhow! physical light stops at the back of the eye etc.

rasava

indeed, one could write all day long eh [and no one would read it all], equally, i like to leave much of it open to the interpretations of others.

primarily i would go with there being one thing which holds all other things within it [infinity], so when we talk of life or mind etc, we are describing differing elements of the same thing. …perhaps energy is its body.

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A. Yes perhaps.

Everything thought of / perceived has reality on some level or another… even if something is imaginary it has reality in the imagination… maybe just not anywhere else… but maybe it does…

B. A juxtaposition and a coherence at the same time.

Does the light stop or does it ‘blend’?

…

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alpha

as we don’t get any input from the brain, the material realm [or at least this one] seaces to exist to us. perhaps we can still perceive it in visions etc lols. whole thing turns on its head.

interesting point, if it blends [which i would agree it does] then in a sense the light becomes a part of our vision. this may be how we can kinda sense the world around us ~ gives it depth.

:slight_smile:

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  1. True. It all depends upon which plane of reality you are trekking.
  2. Light is the essence that makes vision possible. Light allows us to comprehend the dimensions of realities.
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indeed, and what means of utility we have e.g. like brain + body on earth. maybe spirit and soul in eternity, or at least such vague terms are all we can deduce about that which we have little connection with.

true, there is more to it though, there have been experiments where people can see by sound [a little], this is where it gets tricky as light doesn’t have to be the medium of vision. secondly as the photons stop at the back of the eye, we may ask what we are actually seeing. same applies to imagination dreams and vision, what is that kind of light?

{equally we see many things that we don’t see i.e. ‘blindsight’ is a phenomenon where we see objects that we personally don’t take any notice of and don’t know they are there. like when we are driving and we don’t crash into things we havent noticed, it is because the subconscious brain is doing some of the work for us}

you see this is why i feel there are many universal versions of the material, thence we may add ‘light’ to our collection!

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How many sources of reality are there?

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i would say one with infinite expressions. of those expressions, there are clusters where some things gather by a ‘like attracts like’ universal philosophy.

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So the are the expressions partial or universal or both?