"There must be something the matter with him
because he would not be acting as he does
unless there was
therefore he is acting as he is
because there is something the matter with him
He does not think there is anything the matter with him
because
one of the things that is
the matter with him
is that he doesn’t think there is anything
the matter with him
therefore
we have to help him realize that,
the fact that he does not think there is anything
the matter with him
is one of the things that is
the matter with him
- R.D. Laing "Knots" -
How many have faced this problem? It seems that having been pre-judged, there is nothing that can be said to alter this loop. When both the intent and content of anything said is viewed through this set of colored glasses, is there any way to break the endless cycle of pre-determination?
I have a friend who is a psychological counsellor. This person sees mental illness wherever they go, especially among the healthy. I’ve concluded that, for this person, being in therapy is the only real sign of healthy living.
This is almost like a religious world view, as if we are all corrupted by ‘the fall’ or something, and need to follow a certain mantra to become purified.
So, my reply to the question is that we should always look at the judge when we are being judged, especially if the judge is telling us that we are ‘sick’. Ascribing sickness to an individual is a most basic way of gaining control over them, something that was done constantly to women in Victorian times, by the way - the ‘weaker’ sex?
I wouldn’t even bother with the judge. I would certainly rather judge myself.
Everyone else is mad, haven’t you noticed? Perhaps we should allow them all to be mad and in the ‘letting go’ we may just understand that all is as it should be.
I agree, there is a strong tendency for people to reduce the world to their own view of it, and then to believe that what they see represents the world. It’s a tendency worth fighting against - Zen anyone?
As we become older and a little wiser (hopefully) we are able to allow the world to go it’s own way.
Tentative,
A way out of the loop? I guess it depends on who your dealing with. I suspect that those who sit in judgement of others do so because they like doing it. Not a comforting thought.
Hmmmm, so Laing pretty much nailed it. The only way out of the dilemma is to walk away…
Filo observes:
Yeah, that’s occurred to me as well. Even assuming sincerity on the part of all parties, it is the act of passing judgement that creates the knot. Of course, passing judgement on those who pass judgement,… Hey! I think I just found a new knot!
Yes, that is a new knot, for as we pass judgement on those who judge us we are sucked into their mode of thinking.
I’m not much for the bible, but isn’t there something in there about “they know not what they do”? I think that Buddhism deals with this as well. For Buddhists it’s all about letting go of the judging mind - not an easy task.
Most people don’t believe their own judgements or even remember them after a few minutes. They just use them as convenient tools for domination of another at a given moment.
Eg: This person called me on Friday to lecture me that there’s a problem with my personality, I don’t nudge people enough, blah blah blah.
The next Friday she called again, about a different event, to lecture me that I have a problem in my personality, I’m too much of a nudge and blah, blah, blah.
Out of politeness, I didn’t remind her that she’d preached the opposite the previous week.
As circumstances change, most people’s judgements change to suit their interests.
In other words, the best test to determine you’re mentally sick is if you fail to do what I want you to.
Ha Ha! That’s funny. This kind of thing happened with a clergyman who was on my case. He was trying to get me to join up and I was dithering. I said to him “If Jesus, why not Mohammed?”
This really p***** him off becuse he came back with. “The reason you are not joining us is because you are morally sick.”
That was heavy. It would have been even heavier if he had called me mentally sick, but I guess he stopped short of that one.
The best example I ever heard to illustrate this phenomenon is in a joke. It’s not a racist joke but a joke on the arbitrariness and subjectivity of judgement. It’s actually a joke on the illogic of racism.
A black man and his little black son bump into a geenie. The geenie offers to fulfill a wish to each, the usual. The father goes first.
“I’m fed up with being called a f*** nigger, I want to be white!” he chooses without even thinking. And, while his son protests and throws a tantrum that he wants to go first, zas! the guy turns into a white man. His first words as a white:
the key to mental health is balance. throw any one thing out of balance, all of sudden we get labled disorderes and it gets clinical,not personal.
yes, those who cant deal with our problems or want to really help us would give us drug after drug to kiss the AMA’s ass…
mental disorder is strongly linked with biological health.and the toxins this corrupt world feeds you all every day(pepsi,cheese whiz,beer,alchohol,sugar cover shit,etc).it all adds up in the big picture.
While this certainly is an issue for those labeled with some convenient mental disorder, does it not spill over into all social interaction? It seems to me that the knot can be seen in all ‘us-them’ situations (religious squabbles, anyone? red state-blue state?) and creeps into interpersonal relationships among several or even two people. It just seems that once someone ‘knows’ there is something wrong with another person, all the way to groups knowing that something is wrong with another group, that there are no longer any options left. Prejudgement=divisiveness.
well, you are only leading me to what i previosly wrote, all be it a poor choice of threads to enter it on, because this thread is now closed but never the less, i will not repeat myself…
The ‘unite against a common enemy’ is indeed an odd one. I have often thought that if aliens were to arrive here on Earth we might not unite against them but fight with each over who was going to be on their side!
We are a perverse species indeed. Our most constant feature seems to be the coldness with which we treat those we don’t accept. This seems to apply equally in personal relationships and between whole countries.
I think what we are is first and foremost “lazy”. Which brings us to claim that we are a perverse species by nature so we don’t have to make an effort to improve. A cop-out.
=D> I’ll have to read that book, sounds interesting. Thanks.
And yes, I agree with you. It’s tiring. Blaming others is a much more comfortable option. Blaming others is instant relief, but prevents happiness, keeps one stuck.
Beats me, however, why people complain they can’t find happiness when they know they’ve chosen the easier path and not the real one that could lead them to happiness.
If you saw or remember the movie of the shipwreck (Poseidon Adventure?), there were 2 groups: one going the easier way (though they knew it wasn’t the right way to get rescued) and another going a very tough way but which they knew was the only way to the surface, to get rescued. When the latter meet them at some point and try to persuade them to come this way, the former don’t listen. In this group no one survives, and before dying they blame it on the rescue teams. I know this has been interpreted as a religious message by many, but it’s a good example of what I mean.
My father spent his life blaming those who could pose a threat to his interests (namely: a life as easy and comfortable as possible, without unnecessary emotional coping or efforts), alienating them, abusing them, calling them “sick”, etc. Now he’s 80 y/o. He called me last week and said he’s secure and comfortable and still living. Only he doesn’t know what he’s living for.
From the media, all the way down to your “friends”, all to often it is about controling someone else.
I just say to myself sometimes:
“So, this is what it’s all about? You want me to give myself to you? F*** you! I was born free then you wanted me to forget what freedom really was.”
I think what we are is first and foremost “lazy”. Which brings us to claim that we are a perverse species by nature so we don’t have to make an effort to improve. A cop-out.