The Physical Does Not Exist

[size=200]We Only Imagine The Existence Of the Physical: Dropping The Bomb On Secular Materialism [/size]

[size=90]“All we can mean, in talking about physical
objects or nonphysical objects (if there are any)
…is what experiences we would have in dealing with them.”

-Arthur Danto, Connections To The World[/size]

[size=150]Everything known to exist[/size][b]: bacteria, viruses, galaxies, jungles, slums, tornadoes, urine, feces, blood, etc. may or may not possess an external world/ non-mental form continuing to exist in the absence of any and all consciousness, but let there be no mistake: consciousness exists, and as such everything listed above for sake of argument have, in reality, a phenomenal form. That is, galaxies, jungles, slums, mafia hitmen, gangbangers, tornadoes, urine, feces, blood are also composed of the substance that makes up our subjective experience (if not, how are they subjectively experienced?) , as opposed to a non-mental substance believed to exist independent of the existence of consciousness.

If one believes that consciousness comes into and goes out of existence, there must exist a subjective counterpart to every external world/non-mental object, with the subjective counterpart a distinct existence from (albeit a representation of) it’s non-mental counterpart. Thus (if one believes in the existence of the non-mental) objects exist in twos, not ones: there is an external world, non-mental galaxy (viewed through the Hubble telescope, for example) that would continue to exist in the absence of any and all consciousness, and there is the visually perceived, subjective experience of the galaxy by a particular being, with the subjectively experienced galaxy taken to be perception of (or one and the same as) the external world, non-mental galaxy. However, secular mythology concerning the nature of death conceptually “proves” that there are two existences claimed as one: subjective experience of a galaxy can suddenly and instantaneously cease to exist (if the perceiving being dies while viewing the galaxy from the telescope) while the external world, non-mental galaxy continues to exist unaffected by the disappearance of someone’s perception of it.

Thus, if secular mythology in regard to the distinction between consciousness and the physical is true, two distinct existences are claimed to be one : there are phenomenal (subjectively experienced) galaxies and non-phenomenal galaxies, phenomenal jungles and non-phenomenal jungles, phenomenal bacteria and non-phenomenal bacteria, phenomenal and non-phenomenal viruses, feces, blood, saliva—and so on. The real world at least is known to contain subjective experience (by the fact that one subjectively experiences), thus everything known to exist (through knowledge gained by direct experience) possesses at least a phenomenal form; thus every object known to exist is composed of whatever it is that composes subjective experience, as objects exist in the form of how they appear and feel to a particular conscious being.

Existence, then, manifests itself in the form of a particular person and what that person experiences. Empirically, conscious persons are the only things known with certainty to exist. [/b]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLKkBcjb4pg[/youtube]
[size=70]Film: Old School, DreamWorks Pictures 2003[/size]

[b]Anything not an existing conscious person or what that person experiences is only imagined by conscious persons to exist.

Thus if someone perceives and holds a cup, the person gains certain knowledge through direct experience that the cup exists, but the cup, empirically, only exists in the form of how it appears and feels to that particular person, as opposed to the cup in it’s (inconceivable) non-mental, external world form in the absence of any and all subjective experience. Supposedly, the non-mental cup is the cup the individual holds in her hand, but if this is true, is the non-mental cup hiding beneath the subjective experience of the cup, such that in the event of a sudden disappearance of the wielder’s consciousness (i.e. the individual suddenly drops dead while holding the cup), subjective experience of the cup magically winks out of existence, leaving behind it’s non-mental twin (perhaps still in the grip of the dead wielder’s corpse or lying by it’s side)?

But no matter how deep one digs under the surface of subjective experience (in search of it’s non-mental twin…“Keep digging, men–it’s in there!”)— one finds only subjective experience. Where is non-experience or non-mentality? If the cup in one’s hand is also the external world cup, non-mentality must be within what the conscious being locally experiences, as supposedly there is a non-mental analog to hands and cups. Unless consciousness and the physical occupy distinct universes, the non-mental and mental must occupy the same space and time. We know the mental exists, but we imagine the non-mental exists, and we imagine the non-mental to lie at the center of our experience.

Having no concept of non-mentality (as we only experience and conceive of things as they are subjectively perceived or experienced by someone), and with non-mentality inaccessible to conscious experience (as it is not subjective experience nor composed of whatever makes up subjective experience–and thus cannot “show up” in subjective experience composed of subjective experience), non-mentality is, upon rational reflection, an imaginary entity claimed to exist—granted “honorary existence” based upon a skeptic’s denial of the existence of a world containing only consciousness.
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[size=150]Of Occam’s Razor And Non-Mentality
[/size]
The nature of the world is divided among Mentalists and Non-mentalists. Despite the fact that: (a) objects in the real world exist only in the form of how they are experienced by a particular individual, (b) subjective objects are not one and the same as their external world counterparts (if those counterparts exist), and: (c) anything not composed of or an aspect of the subjective world of a particular individual is only imagined to exist, natural philosophy is divided and governed by one of two beliefs:

  1. The belief that only subjective experience or mentality exists

  2. The belief that an additional non-mental substance definitely exists, and underlies the existence, structure, and disposition of subjective experience.

[b]However, it is a fact of life that the non-mental, in spite of the possibility or the reasonableness of its existence, is imaginary. That is, it is something we must imagine exists, given that the non-mental is something that is not subjective consciousness. The very existence of consciousness, or the conscious mind, bars it from perception of that not composed of whatever makes up personal consciousness; the conscious mind is a closed system devoid of the non-subjective. Everything within the conscious mind or encountered by the conscious mind must appear in a phenomenal form capable of being perceived or experienced.

(This is obvious even from secular mythology that the physical brain is the arbiter of all experience: in order to visually perceive galaxies or jungles, there must exist within the brain neurons prepared before-the-fact to produce (upon electrochemical demand) private, personal perception of a galaxy or jungle: compare these “neuron-created” galaxies and “neuron-created” jungles to galaxies and jungles not created by the brain; the purported non-mental galaxies and jungles existing beyond the pale of consciousness).
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[size=150]Occam’s Razor[/size]

“The process in which we are engaged is the search for rational evidence for or against intelligent design. It does not suffice to say that intelligent design is possible, and proponents of intelligent design have no right to re-cast the question as one in which the non-existence of intelligent design must be proven. Within the framework of Occam’s razor, intelligent design is an added hypothesis and the proponent’s burden is to demonstrate why it is necessary to make this hypothesis. I have argued that no evidence or rational argument for intelligent design can be found in either the data or the theories of modern physics and cosmology. If the hypothesis of intelligent design is to be discussed in science classrooms, then good science methodology demands that we make clear that this is an uneconomical hypothesis that is not required by existing scientific knowledge.”

-Victor J. Stenger, Intelligent Design: Humans, Cockroaches, and the Law of Physics

[b]Why, the same can be said of the existence of the physical (the non-mental). The same reasoning applies in perfect analogy: Stenger’s reasoning behind the probable nonexistence of intelligent design applies equally to skepticism concerning the existence of the non-mental. Within the framework of Occam’s Razor, the non-mental, because it must be imagined to exist and because it must be imagined to mimic the content of visual perception, is itself an added hypothesis to the experienced world, and one can argue that (in particular) no evidence or rational argument for the non-mental can be found in the data of the depth and ubiquity of subjective experience (see cup example above). Phyiscalists and Materialists are born skeptics of the possibility that only consciousness exists, and are convinced that there must be more to reality than conscious minds. The Physicalist and Materialist then imagines, and asserts, the existence and nature of this added element–going so far as to insist this imaginary property is responsible for the existence of the subjective world.

In contrast, Idealism, Solipsism, and Phenomenalism (to a fault) remains within the framework of Occam’s Razor, eschewing the additional “baggage” of non-mentality. The Physicalist and Materialist, however, is nagged by a “ghost reason” insisting something else is going on, that the non-mental somehow exists. But this phantom form of reason fails an empirical leg to stand upon, supported only by a nagging, phantom suspicion that reality is somehow not purely phenomenal. Bolstered by this suspicion, the Non-Mentalist begins to suspect that perhaps humans are indeed gifted with revelatory knowledge, such that a mental activiity, like suspicion, intuition, or even logical imagination, is somehow a way objective reality “whispers in one’s ear” to indicate that one has seized furtively upon the truth.

Empirically, only subjective experience exists. But never fear, says the Non-Mentalist, our minds somehow possess the power to see beyond the obvious to the secret realm of non-empirical truth, with such truth in existence because of the existence of our belief in it’s truth.[/b]

[size=150]…TO BE CONTINUED…[/size]

Everything exists, everything is true!
If your assertion is true that; “We Only Imagine The Existence Of the Physical”, then in that context, that of our ‘imagination’, the ‘physical’ does exist; is a real feature of Reality/the complete Universe.
Existence is contextual. Not anything can be named/defined that does not exist (context).

everything is an idea in god’s mind?

can you grind up some lenses?

-Imp

namelesss

[b]Depends on semantics, I suppose. If “physical”=“existence”, then yes, the physical does exist.

If, however, “physical”=that which is not subjective experience qua subjective experience, then it may not exist.[/b]

Impenitent:

[b]At least that’s what I believe: that we are propagations of absurd, moral, and logical ideas occurring to God’s mind (or when God sustains an idea, the idea expresses itself in multiples, propagating to form multiple metaphors of the idea in objective, human, and animal (albeit phenomenal) form—with the multiple manifestations having sub-dimensional (“box-within-a-box”) consciousness of their own, deriving their personal, private experience from the subjective material of God’s mind (thus the mind of God, rather than some non-mental realm independent of consciousness, is the external world)

I think this is what is really meant in Genesis when it states that man is created in the image of God, or when God states:[/b]

“You are all sons of the Most High” (Psalms)

Or as Paul told the Athenians on Mars Hill:

“As your own poets have said: ‘We are his offspring’” (Acts 18)[/i]

J.

check out spinoza

-Imp

Your world view is language integral, semantics.
Rule #1) Everything exists in context!
No ‘context’ = no ‘existence’ = no Universe!
There can be no thing ‘out of context’.

Makes no sense to me. There is only ‘subject/object’ distinction made by ego/thought (eye of the beholder), but…
See: Rule #1.
There is not a thing that you can offer as an example of something ‘that does not exist’, as your very naming it is existence/context.

nameless:

Okay… :-k

Impenitent:

[b]Will do.

J.[/b]

Hello phenomenal_graffiti,
I found your post “The Physical Does not Exist” very interesting. I tried to look at other posts by you, but there are too many.
On this post I saw these 2 theories:

  1. Subjective exists, but physical independent of conscienceness does not exist
  2. External events are thoughts from God, with multiple manifistations making our personal experiences.
    Do you have any other major theories? Do you post more about the multiple aspects of God’s thoughts?

What were your major influences in developing these philosophies?

Thank you,
mges

This appears to be related to the topic of this thread.

“Researchers have also found neural correlates for illusions involving senses other than vision, such as hearing and touch. At one level, these findings are unremarkable because it is generally accepted that mental experiences must have a basis in the brain. On another level, they demonstrate that we have no direct contact with reality. Our brain is always abstracting and interpreting the world around us. Even when we know the true nature of an illusion, this insight often does not change our experience. As far as the brain is concerned, if an event is an illusion, it might as well be real.” Bruce Hood

So if you have no direct contact with reality, then how do you know what reality is like when you never experience it? And the brain is something that we have direct contact with in experience, at least those pesky brain-surgeons, and mad scientist that give us those brain-in-vat type of experiments, so it would appear that we do not have direct contact with whatever that is suppose to be.

What a strange assertion: that we do not have direct experience of reality. Does this mean we have direct experience of things that are not real? That sounds like magical thinking.

This is in the new scientific American “Mind” series. I kid you not.

And I honestly think that some, and I want to say many, scientist actually believe this stuff.

Well, not coincidentally it would make them priests. It would have been more consistent if they simply said there was no direct experience. But then, since there would be none, it would be a meaningless term. It is also impossible to prove, I mean, what do they use as evidence? And even if they could demonstrate there were many things indicated that much experience was indirect, this would not demonstrate there was no direct experience - approximations and interpretations could be running parallel to direct experience. Also there could be experience that was partially direct, filled in with approximations. And so on.

But then it all gets rather funny since it could be any universe the scientists think they know about. And they would have no reason to assume that their readers adn listeners were in the same ones or had the same problems.

common guys you cant be that naive, what you ultimately perceive is an interpretation of the information nevertheless the sensorial stimuli that are perceived are a direct contact with reality. its not like you make reality up, is that the information that is entering the brain is interpretated differently by different people since their wiring is different. its not something important really.

So the information, as you label it, is not real or part of reality? (and there is no need for the ad hom)

How do we know that what we perceived are a direct contact with reality when we cannot check up on it, in principle? Talk about naive. And as Einstein said, which is correct, “all knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it”, which means that is reality, and the only one we could know, unless we have a priori knowledge.

let me try and explain it simply:

the perception is the sensation of reality, it is the real part, the real world or you can see it as the raw material.

thinking which is necesary for consciousness is the way the materials are put together, to “see” is an interpretation and thus relative to how your brain is wired which depends on your memory, and thus, experience. or what i call the sixth sense.

this correlation is often not understaood and people jump to silly conclusions such as we live in an illusion.

I’ll start at the end. I certainly wasn’t drawing that conclusion. I don’t think ZK was either.

I am not sure what the ‘it’ I bolded and expanded above refers to.

I am not sure what this means…

we cannot know for certain since like you correctly state to be able to check it means that you have to interpret, nonethless i beleive that it is as logical and sensible conlcusion as i can get.

of course it is an interpretation. and ofcourse you are right. however i dont need to be on the surface to know what will happen to me if i where there.

How would the perception be the sensation of reality when the sensation has no direct contact with reality, as the author pointed out? Looks like a stretch and not following what they pointed out.