The President's lost voice?

I wanted to comment on a Washington Post article by Richard Cohen.

He believes that the “presidency has changed Barack Obama.” I believe that everyone would. Candidates for President speak about issues they often see from the outside looking in, while the POTUS sees the issues from the inside. Cohen also believes that the POTUS has lost his voice, because “The numbers say so. Obama has the approval of only 44 percent of the American people. During his time in office, Congress and much of the nation have gone Republican — statehouse after statehouse, governor after governor (soon to be 32) — an astounding feat when you consider that the GOP has become the Know-Nothing Party in all its meanings.” I believe that the GOP race has shown us that polling often tells us little. The early success by Obama has diminished the appeal Obama may have had with moderate conservatives. Obama “was” ( I believe that he never lost what he never had) influential, but his decisions are momentous and do carry a political price paid in the approval ratings. Halting the troops withdrawal from Afghanistan has not been popular among his supporters who thought that he would turn the page on the ME involvement. His approval rating reflects shifts for many in the country. He is bound to have upswings and downswings after every decision he makes, but the trend is not always negative and even in late October we were still talking about his comeback in the polls (washingtonpost.com/news/the … 0-percent/).

I think that when Cohen says on the piece that “His policy, after all, is to avoid yet another Middle East quagmire. It entails the ringing call to do as little as possible.” he is misrepresenting Obama’s strategy. We still have drone killings and Special Forces on the ground. THIS is his level of involvement, his policy, and it is not simply “avoid quagmire” but deploy force intelligently…in my opinion. I do agree with Cohen in that Obama has learnt to measure what he says a lot more after the “red line” fiasco. Because of this, his eloquence may have suffered. I’ll take that over a man who learns nothing from life. Cohen calls that episode “a foreign policy debacle in which the measure of Obama has been taken. He’s been bullied off the playground.” I disagree. Bullied by who exactly? Putin? Russia may have to come around after tasting, just tasting what unilateral action entails. No one has replaced the USA as leader of the world. The EU remains as non-committal as ever, even after Paris, when it comes to significant action beyond what Obama does. Putting has not replaced Obama either. He simply expressed what have been their interest all along. Rather than having Assad botch his own defense, Putting came to the rescue. Yet, even now Russia has had to reconsider their initial stance. A playground is made of sand, and of course “bullies” do want to impose their will and enjoy their conquest. The middle east playground is made of quicksand and no one really wants to sit on quicksand. The POTUS, in my opinion, is merely waiting to see if the quicksand begins to set and reveal where a “bully” might be able to stand.

In Cohen’s words the POTUS has run out of ideas and “Consequently, he ought to listen to others.”. He believes that Obama is the one popping off opinions and that others, such as many think-tanks are talking sense. As I began this post, I say it again, that the opinion of the man who receives reports from intelligence agencies should be held in the highest regard.

You do realize that for the rest of their lives the Obamas get a retirement that you and I could only dream of. Obama has the ants in his pants attitude that all exiting or most exiting presidents get. Their future is set in platinum. If he had worked more with the senate and congress and they had tried to work with him and if people actually were allowed to vote for the best person rather than party , etc etc , you would be right. Our system rewards crap and we let it. We have lost voting rights on a federal level. We used to have a voice, now we are on mute with pretty songs in our ears.

Obama was an accomplished writer, so the retirement was not the goal of his running, just as it is probably not the goal of Donald Trump. Working with Congress, even now, seems a dream under the current spirit. The Tea Party pretty much denied Obama the benefit of just dealing with conservatives. Now he had to deal with ultra-conservatives. I don’t think that at the height of his rhetorical power Obama was going to persuade everyone. It was not the Senate that proved difficult to work with, but the House.
One point that Cohen makes is that there is a distinction between what he has to say on domestic policy and on foreign policy, meaning that he has a lot more to say about what is happening domestically than internationally. He compares Obama to Churchill and cast Obama as a failure, at least rhetorically, in the comparison. I simply don’t think that WW2 is the equivalent of the ME cluster-fuck (and I mean that as stated). Had Churchill live in our era he would not end the ME conflict.

I am going to become President, someday.

obamaprincetonthesis.wordpress.com
It is not only about him, actually I think she had the presidency in mind for herself for interesting reasons. Trump won’t be president and has no real desire to be a president. His antics are for distraction. He is making his friend Hillary look good.

You thought this 8 years ago too, I suppose? POTUS is certainly waiting, you’re right about that. Waiting until he’s not president anymore. That way whoever is forced to clean up this mess with an actual strategy will be accused of ‘war-mongering’, not him.

He would of progressively wound down the troops in Iraq, switching them over to Afghanistan during his first term, still leaving troops in Iraq, especially in Kurdish areas, in case they were needed.

In China, they figured out Obama a few millennia ago. The King/Emperor of the court, with his ministers, would give a limited mandate to a general/generals, within a time frame. Once the command from military to civil was switched over, the general had the right to completely dismiss the interference, even orders, from royal authority, to complete their mission.

Same for Republican Dictators in Rome (prior to Caesar). They had absolute authority, if the Senate issued a decree, they could write back to the Senate to mind their own stinking business, they have stuff to do.

Am I advocating US Generals having a similar level of autonomy? No. Not the generals per say, but the department of defense needs more ties to Congress to slow down and arrest really bad strategies. We did it with Guantanamo, I wish it was done with Iraq. Could of kept ISIS from forming. Millions have been displaced and killed.

Problem is we elect both a Commander and Chief and a president of the other branches of the Executive in one person. I’m not ready to advocate a separation of the executive into President and Prime Minister just yet, but Obama absolutely proved the weakness of the presidential system. He ran on a socialist agenda, and produced a rather bad and impossibly expensive medical system… a lot of the cost doesn’t kick in till after Obama leave, but let’s just call this Obama’s victory, what he did right, so we can look at the flip side… he also ran on a more pacifistic leaning, anti war agenda. What was the end result? The wars radically expanded, and we managed to knock off Libya without due diplomatic process (Qaddafi was trying to negotiate) for still undisclosed reasons, every bit of information we have suggests it was personal grudges of some sort between the head of the state department (Hillary) and Qaddafi. Obama agreed to it in the end, Libya is now a war zone.

Every bad process Obama ever had, ISIS pops up in. Or Russia, or Iran.

So, knowing party politics happen, will happen… knowing that electorates may choose someone for policies they never really thought out, how do we fix this for the future.

The United States is foremost a member of NATO, but we’re also involved with other international alliances. Our diplomacy needs to be constant and aggressive, our military predictably dependable as far as meeting and maintaining these alliances go… without them, the peace won’t last for long. Imagine how bad Europe and the Middle East would get if the US started behaving like Germany or Denmark. War would be everywhere fast, several countries would collapse in a few years, it wouldn’t settle down for a few generations. The Arab Spring came from just a few leaks from a incompetent president who didn’t manage his internal informational security. If we just started turtling, hiding in our own shell, it be far, far worst.

So how do we create a system, where there is foreign policy stability and military competency, in the first year of office, slowly easing a commander in chief who’s main military knowledge came from reading Essays by Chomsky? Should someone like General Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander of Europe, be held to a hypothetical system of handicaps? He knew what to do, knew the score in terms of the military and foreign policy… I don’t think Putin would invade Ukraine and Syria under his watch. I don’t think ISIS would last long. But any system applied to one president needs to be applied to the next.

My best I recommendation is, Congress needs to reject new Secretary of State and Department of Defence heads until a good 6 months, if necessary a year, and they need to regularly submit reports to Congress, if Congress isn’t satisfied, automatic funding freezes happen, across the government.

Each president would have to experience this. They inherit the previous presidents people, get acquainted, then after six months to a year, pick their own people… they in term ride the next presidents butt hard, making sure he knows what he is doing.

Quite frankly, Obama was clueless up until recently. He seems increasingly more aware, but still inept and strained. Big difference between chanting slogans and winning elections, and running wars. His ineptitude created a genocidal beast. He only very slowly comes around to adopting smarter strategies… usually too late. Its a clear signal he was having these suggestions placed before him over the years, and kept rejecting them, till he finally couldn’t deny his preferences failed.

A good leader needs a diversity of advisors, highly competent and experienced from a variety of backgrounds. He was clearly listening to fellow ideologues, not considering all perspectives.

How do I know this? Simple… I’ve put dozens of suggestions on this site over the years, and it’s only after repeated failures he goes with something similar. Mybstuff isn’t genius, it’s rather simple, tried and true stuff tested in parts across history, and with a basic awareness of military doctrine. Generals should be far more knowledgeable than me, his advisors even better.

The guys who knew what they were doing got sidelined. Had he done this competently, Iraq would be experiencing minor terrorism, Afghanistan be winding down and stable, no Arab Spring. No chaos in Syria.

Omar, you make it sound like the presidency is a form if psychotherapy where its okay to make mistakes as long as you learn from them.

But the POTUS is the one position where we would like to have someone who is capable of sometimes avoiding mistakes. If he had kept his red line promise there would still be a middle east for people to live in. If he hadnt attacked Libya there would still be a life for the Libyans. I dont see how any of this can be redeemed.

Obama wanted to send troops into Syria but then some of the slightly more competent reporters found out that it was like the rebels and not the government that used the chem weopons that were to be the justification for going in, so Obama backed off. Since Obama is the democrat he will make more noise about using all other options since his base thinks he is opposed to violence. But he created ISIS along with his predecessors and had no problem with a foreign policy that increases the power of terrorist groups, then later uses them as an excuse to go to war. Sure if you have the model that he is a fallible nice guy,you can come up with contorted excuses for business as usual.

Eight years ago we had a POTUS who was not very clear as to what reports he would listen to. As a God-fearing man, he was quick to frame every issue as an absolute. Don’t get me wrong; I think that Obama has bungled the situation in Syria by being overly pacifistic but I think that such inaction is more reasonable based on the fucked up reports we are getting from the ME. W Bush disregarded the reports from the nuclear watch-dog agency and then defended the entire war on the fact that “every-body believed that Saddam had WMD”…everyone except the experts at the sites.
I don’t think that he will accuse Hillary of war-mongering, but he does seem to want to leave the major decisions that will affect the country for the next ten years to the next POTUS. Some think that that is a mistake that will cost American lives. Some think that more offense is needed. See Putin? I don’t see ISIS wilting.

No POTUS acts on what they think is a mistake. They do what they think is the right thing to do.
Not bombing Assad was not the trigger to all of this. It did show a lack of resolve but ISIS power does not come from that mistake but from the mistake in Iraqi post-Saddam governments to raise a truly inclusive government. It was the decision to cut liasons with former soldiers in Saddam’s soldiers. It will continue strong because their most effective enemies are also terrorists we are fighting against.
As for Libya…that was moment of wishful thinking.

Is that what happened? Explains a lot…plausible. He created ISIS? So we have troops in Muslim lands in perpetuity and THAT will resolve the issue of radicals? I don’t believe that. I have heard the argument (in the GOP debates) that the withdrawal of US troops created the power vacuum now filled by ISIS. I believe that US troops were meant to leave sooner or later, but the issue that drives ISIS to power is the Sunni/Shia divide within Islam which goes back centuries and will not be solved by the presence of western troops on muslim lands, in fact, judging by many reports about 9-11, quite the contrary. ISIS is the creation of Shia governments in Iraq that failed to include the Sunni community effectively.
I think that we need to pick our poison. Do we want ISIS defeated, then stop bashing Assad; yet if he wins we will still have terrorist, funded by Iran, targeting us.

No, it has been something I’ve reviewed a lot over the years.

In martial arts, it’s generally recommended not to make the first move. When the first move is made, the fighter commits to a stance, his opponent can choose from this the counter, giving him the initiative.

What ultimately would of come of Obama’s red line? Assad would of gone into hiding, like Saddam did. Its still our official policy NOT to assassinate world leaders (a international mandate, doesn’t have to be UN, just Arab League and NATO nations could nullify qualms in regards to a slippery slope here).

We would attack Assad, gave weapons without background checks unabashedly to militias loosely associated to the FSA.

End result would be Al Nursa and ISIS armed to the teeth, after receiving coalition SF training. Russia would respond by backing divisional level support of Iranian units in southern Iraq and Syria, supplying logistics, heavy air transport, and military advisors. The conflict would of heated up far worst.

The central issue is Iran is willing to let Iraq and Syria, and Yemen remain De Jure independent, but won’t let it fall into de facto control of it’s opposition. Its been fighting for a very, very long time against the Sunnis, and was invaded by them within the last generation.

Russia is a natural enemy of Iran, shares territorial borders, Russian Islamic population is typically Sunni, hostile to Iran. Both are oil producing states, manufacture second rate industrial products, and military exports are competitors for buyers in the Soviet equipped military world, as both use similar basic hardware designs. What keeps them together is they share similar indignities and limitations from western nations, and a sense of encrochment from the west. China is at best lukewarm, a occasional buyer of minerals, oil, and junk products.

Russian strategy is completely built around the Russian Central Bank, and a urgent need to expand it’s international holdings. Gold, Silver, Oil is universally accepted. So are Dollars, but the US under Reagan manipulated oil supply and currency to the Soviets disadvantage, it was the ultimate cause for their collapse.

Russian central bank needs foreign currency, and access to markets that accept that currency. It faces embargoes through the Dardenalles, Boycotts, and Sanctions whenever it advances west. It has made it’s reexpansion through Europe very difficult, from Bulgaria and Hungarian to Romania, same story. It will eventually get shut out of trade with Turkey. Georgia and Ukraine are in open collaboration.

Notice the major trade deals between Russia and Turkey wasn’t shut down by Russia, but Turkey? Turkey is also always the first to shut down borders with Iran if something goes loopey.

Russia needs to export oil without NATO interference. Its either through the ice, across the Arctic to Asia, or through pipelines to nations that can fly their own flags for transport.

Syria can do this, and Iraq. In both countries, it has Hugh holdings, in Syria, it includes agricultural development in rebel areas, generation long contracts. Why? It needs the oil, it needs ports, and it needs access to sanction resistant markets. Its currency is worthless without them, and all it’s dollars and euroes can’t do a damn thing when it’s cut off from everyone.

Its why you see current chairmen of Russian central banks popping up just prior to the ISIS Breakout in these regions.

Had we pushed hard with Obama’s red line, we wouldn’t of had a responsible, effective strategy. It would of been pointless strikes. Yes, we can destroy all aircraft, crater airfields… Russians would of flown out of Cyprus and Iran acting as Assad’s Air force.

We can bomb armories, but Syria likely has hundreds of Randal bunkers spread out on several dozen bases. Most aren’t chemically related, and their primary weapons of choice are barrel bombs, something deeply unsophisticated and not kept in bunkers or warehouses.

Likewise, Russia and Iran would of flooded Syria with Anti Aircraft weapons. US can counter them, like in Libya, but not the gulf states, or Europe. Though their contributions are minor in actual bombing, their surveillance, diplomatic support, and indirect funding, such as Germany arming the Peshmerga when the US couldn’t due to Iraqi relations (Hugh debate if ft hey should dump the US and bring in Russia and Iran officially instead).

End result is, we would of more or less instantly lost the war. Obama should never of made the red line statement, never make such a bluff, you need to be able to show you can follow through.

It took us a long time to redevelop a strategy. First counter to the above scenario occurred when the US and Germany pulled out it’s commitment to keeping Patriot Missiles in Turkey, and getting the Turks to back off on the Kurdish Cantons in North Syria.

Reason why, is though it’s not designed to knock down Russian air defence missiles, it still can, somewhat. Russia would of deployed it’s deterrent in Syria much earlier, and Russia would if flown fighters with it’s bombers. I don’t think the US let Erdogan know of this intention, thought it was unlikely to happen, but really needed Turkey, and not the US or Germany to make the first hit. Turkish pride and nationalism did the rest, west picked up the pieces, Russia deployed it’s anti air missiles, had to come up with an excuse for why it was bombing Non-ISIS targets. Now ground militias can be equipped to counter and nab Russian assets in it’s poorly defended airfields (they have had minor skirmishes, Russians promise no protection to locals).

Only 8% of Syrian Army fighting has been against ISIS, it’s mostly other rebel groups. Russia is mirroring this emphasis more or less, they need more “moderate” territory to rebuild the Syrian Army. Even with Russia, Assad is coming to a end here soon. Its gonna be nasty when ISIS switches to Urban pushes in Assad main areas when Russia can only pull of daytime dumb bomb drops, radioed in by Arabic speaking forward observers. You saw how bad Kobani got with high precision hits. I don’t think Putin can replicate this without estranging Assad’s core supporters.

West can now selectively arm rebels with weapons, some of which can take down Russian aircraft. We have the short line of logistics, we have a legal just cause, given our special forces teams are hidden across northern Syria… if they are hit by Russian Aircraft, it’s over for Russia, either a no fly zone goes up, or rebels start liquidating their assets using our advanced weaponry.

Likewise in Iraq… the Iraqi Army went hard to the Iranians, US stagnated. We stuck to a near exclusive air campaign, whenever the Iraqi Army didn’t do the main offensive pushes, we backed off. When they did, we supported. It would of taken the Iraqi Army 6 months to cut off Mosul once they retook Haditha Dam… all you had to do was send a division to take the Outskirts of Southwest Mosul, Kurds could of held the North… ISIS left in the rear a minor worry. Main roads taken, but there are dozens of dirt roads in the desert north of the Euphrates… I know, I’ve traced each one on Google. A small tank and attack helicopter detachment could of fucked up any major ISIS movements in this nomans land. Infantry/Armored Cars held the walked cities, modified concrete supports in the main arteries could of foiled any blitzkrieg push ISIS was fond of making.

Iraq didn’t invest in it’s army, demoralized it, ridiculed those who remained loyal and continue to fight, and switched to a Shia emphasis over Sunni. The militias in both Syria and Iraq were mostly inept, so they brought in their top generals, and just recently lost their biggest name in Aleppo.

Meanwhile, Turkey has been training up Turkomen and Kurdish fighters to retake Mosul. They now even officially announced establishingba FOB. Iraq is threatening airstrikes, but if it does, it will best case scenario lose it’s aircraft to superior Turkish Fighters, worst case… successfully hit Turkish and Peshmerga fighters.

If this happens, the Peshmerga will cede from Iraq, declare their own state, be recognized by Turkey, given official Kurdish to Turkey oil contracts, Kurds will storm Mosul with Russian help, then sack the Kurdish Cantons in Syria, pushing out Occalan influences, becoming a buffer state to both Turkey and NATO. I am largely okay with this, as it makes NATO more stable over the next few centuries. Also secularizes Sunni populations in Syria and Iraq, as it will become a prosperous and westernizes influence, counter to the Shia in the south.

Kurds, instead of the Iraqi government, severed the main Iraqi - Syrian Artery.

US sorta has small elite groups of men on the ground, they can potentially be weeding the ISIS forces down through small kill teams, causing demoralization and havoc at night. I’m not seeing too much evidence for this, but can start at any time, if it hasn’t already.

I would prefer for the Kurds and Turks not force a Peshmerga succession if the Iraqis attack. My preference is a Fatwa declaring Assad a legitimate target, commented on by Arab States positively, and western philosophers to write positively on this, deligitimizing Assad as a official head of state, accused of genocide and war crimes, particularly by philosophers with legal backgrounds, who’s works hold judicial status in countries like Italy.

Once Assad is dead, it hardly closes the issues of Syrian Army war crimes, but it will be a Hugh relief to Putin if whoever takes control (they will rapidly lose territory as thus occurs) pledges to honor Russian contracts, offers to meet with the west. Russia will be satisfied, might even cross Iran to a point.

Likewise in Iraq, it’s still De Jure independent. Sooner Mosul is wrestled away from ISIS, without Tukey and Kurds sealing off the border for good in the north, the more likely it is to recover, though with a nasty mix of Shia militia and backwards military. It will heavily favor Iran, but will have a lot if stress for the Sunnis during occasional rebellions, and will have to take on a more independent national character. I don’t think Russia want Iran to get too cuddly with Iraq, just prefers it to Iraq being cuddly with the West. Its long term goals will eventually force it into a antagonistic stance against Iran, though I don’t all out war.

Expect further pushes into Ukraine, Turkey probing it’s Russian border, and Russia pushing hard into Georgia to hit refugee communities from Chechnya. Also expect sanctions returning back on Iran, and half of Europe refusing. I don’t know if Israel will hit Iran soon, it’s communications with Russia over Syria is cryptic, but it seems to be cooperating with Russia, while labeling the Assad/Iranian/Hezbollah Axis as far more dangerous than ISIS, and is adjusting it’s military stance to this, which doesn’t make much sense.

Middle East would of been far worst off had Obama bombed Syria after the red line. We got lack in Iraq on making cross border contacts. We didn’t learn from Vietnam and Korea the importance of having friends in bordering states who can check interstate guerillas, encampments, providing a list of who is who. We do investigate a lot of stuff, just not the heads of militias, local economic strongmen (especially black market prior to militias forming), and we don’t befriend and bribe these people. It pays off in the long run. We didn’t know who was who when this war started, despite knowing Syria under Assad was raising Sunni militias to target Falluja, Iskandariya and Baghdad for years. I was on the receiving end of that. We really should of been playing the demographics, picking out strongmen and getting them to be our friends in Syria and Iran. A head of a local Mafia will not hesitate to undermine the government if given enough money and incentive.

He continued polices started earlier that supported the full range of the rebels in Syria. This isn’t even controversial, it just isn’t mentioned very much.

I don’t think the main goals have to do with the radicals, otherwise why support them in a fight against a dictator who is not particularly Muslim or extremist. Why support the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Quaida and I’SIS if the concerns are radicalism?

Your explanatoin and mine are not mutually exclusive. But the fact is they drive US supplied vehicles, sleep in US made tents, have been supplied arms by the West and have good relations with NATO Turkey. Of course they have their own motivations and goals. But these fit nicely in the short term with the goals of the Neocons.

So ASsad was somehow planning to attack us with terrorists? And does this justify creating a civil war that is displacing hundreds of thousands into Europe and other countries, causing a great number of civilian deaths and giving terrorist groups the ability to expand.

And its not like we have not done this before: Al-Quaida and the Taliban in Afghan. against the Russians, Noreiga in Panama, Hussein whose use of chemical weopons the same Bush people tried to distract people from then later used it as an excuse for Gulf War 1. We support people with reprehensible ideas for move for self-gain - not self-defense - then when self-gain is better attacking them we do that.

It is amazing that they can get away with it time after time.

I wish I could say exactly what the goals are. I see a number of possibilities. IN this case, Syria does have oil, it is near Russia and could serve as an ally and base against Russia, destabilization increases the ability to do more surveillance, have more law enforcement and transfer more funds to private companies like Haliburton - just to use a name many recognize - to create the large regugee flight into Europe and the US, since this also will lead to destabilization and the same results. THe NeoCons published a set of goals, back in the late 90s, where they wanted to go into a series of countries in North Africa and the Middle East and overthrow the regimes. So far this has happened in most of the countries they set as goals. Syria and Iran are left.
You’d have to ask them why they want to do it and scan their answers carefully since I am sure when questioning them since they will likely give noble reasons rather the self-gain ones.

So you’ve got your reasons why it was okay to shit on Bush eight years ago and dismiss his opinions as a civilian, but now that Obama seems to be making a mess of everything, we need to take him super seriously because he gets the exact same intelligence briefings that Bush did? Sounds like it has more to do with how you vote than reality.

I could spend the time Googling up all the various generals, diplomats, intelligence officials and foreign leaders who’s opinion Obama is ignoring, but it would be easier if you just agreed that the above doesn’t really describe a substantial difference between Bush and Obama. In fact, I’d say Obama is far more guilty of ignoring his own advisers than Bush ever was.

Ciao Moreno,

The “full range” never contained any moderates, I think. But we have to keep in mind that ISIS has been evolving as an organization, from an arm with AQI to its own organization- no- “State” which goes beyond and in some cases against Al Qaeda. But while US policies kept Assad of their backs I don’t believe that ISIS is the equivalent of Al Qaeda. For one, the US seems to have evaluated ISIS initially as a different kind of animal. This was an error. But I guess I would agree that ISIS is an unexpected, unforeseen development that might have been different if a different estimation had been taken. I think that Shia expansion was seen as a greater threat than the organization that became ISIS. Really, when compared to a nuclear Iran, who does Israel fear most?

Because Iran was seen as a bigger threat, probably. Assad supporters are no friends of the US any more than Assad’s enemies. Could it be that Israel is more concerned about Iran than radicals? Could be. One thing that frustrates me is that POTUS has shown as much wishful thinking in his faith in the Arab Spring as W. Bush showed in his belief that US forces in Muslim Lands would be received as “liberators”.

The relation with Turkey is not as close as you might think. The US is flying missions from Turkey against ISIS. US equipment was not given- it was stolen when Iraqi soldiers hauled ass out of what is now ISIS territory. You know that one of ISIS oil clients is the Assad regime? Go figure…

No…as far as we know. I don’t think that the strategy value of deposing Assad is worth the civilian displacement we are seeing. And if Assad goes that Alawaite minority might be slaughtered. I think that in the strategic “game” the displacement was seen, probably, as an acceptable risk that might have been mitigated by speeding up the process. I don’t think it was an acceptable risk.

“self gain”? You mean Freedom right? No, seriously, I am not trying to place Obama in a shrine above the vices of all world hegemons. That is the driving question behind all policy, one would say. What is in our interest? After a series of blunders, starting with the Iraq War, we should praise Obama for being overly cautious, because at this point it seems to me that there is no clear path that ensures our best interest because no one in Syria shares our interest. The proposals about what to do in Syria from the presidential candidates have to keep in mind that no nation is without interests and that every decision, in the ME at least, carries a big downside. The ME has not been fixed by any strategic decision.
Richard Kohn in an article on FP magazine outlined some possible alternatives where you can see the obstacles we face.
“The proven way to defeat insurgencies is first to deny them a sanctuary, and second, to offer the population of a country experiencing insurgency some viable alternative to the indigenous regime. Both efforts are difficult and time-consuming, so we must act with urgency.” This is what we have failed to do for decades. The Shia/Sunni divide goes deep. The example seems to be that an authoritarian regime takes over to the detriment of one faction, and when democracy is instituted, as it was in Iraq, whichever faction is the majority naturally dominates the democratic process which transforms it into just form of totalitarianism.

“Defeating ISIL will require denying it control of territory in Syria and Iraq, and outside aid from elsewhere. This cannot be done by western ground forces lest those give credibility to the charge of “crusading” and increase the attractiveness of jihad to disaffected or radicalized youth all over the Muslim world. An international force of Middle Eastern soldiers, backed by western air power, logistics, financing, training, and military advice must be assembled more quickly to complement, and bring to closure, the campaign from the air already underway.” This is pretty much in line with the POTUS strategy, who called for more involvement from Arab countries. But, alas, the Sauds, for example, will not commit unless assurances are given that Iran will not be benefited from the sacrifices of Arab soldiers.

“The second challenge, more difficult than the fighting, would be to construct political settlements and governance in former sanctuaries. These would need to be attractive to the local populations and acceptable both to neighboring countries and outside powers currently in the fight.” That means that the proposed governments might be founded on Sharia Law, the same law that we often find appalling.

But here is where he loses me: “At the same time, the Obama administration should put together the international ground force to invade Syria and western Iraq, with American, European, Russian, and Iranian support, should diplomacy fail. Even if it succeeds, a force will be necessary to occupy the country, establish order, receive returning Syrian refugees, and oversee reconstruction while awaiting a new Syrian government.” First off the Russian and Americans have a different plan for Assad. Secondly, the participants have different levels of commitment, meaning that the US is probably going to be the one stuck in a quagmire over time. Third, is he fucking mad? Haven’t we had enough from our nation-building escalating failures in Iraq and Afghanistan???
So it is foolish, in my opinion, considering some of the difficulties listed by Kohn, to think that Obama’s rhetoric is the issue, the problem, and implied as a solution. The shit goes deep and more fuckers are joining the cluster-fuck to the point that that idea, that ship, has long sailed. Getting the hell out of there is not the solution either, at least for the region. So? Wait. But not wait as Kohn proposes, sitting on Humvees on eastern Syria for a suitable government to emerge, but at home until a good option presents itself that will not tie this country into another ground war that will drain our coffers and fill our cemeteries.

Ciao Uccisore

I hate to break it to you Ucci but even conservatives are shitting on W. Bush, and if you don’t see any reasons why, then you need to explain why is that because to me the pretexts to go into Iraq never convinced me. You are sitting then on board an aircraft carrier and state “mission accomplished”? You can do everything with bayonets, except sit on them. That’s an old saying that he seems to have been unaware of. And then every foreign policy was framed by “evil-doers” blah, blah, blah, as if we are the forces of God. B.S., if you know the history of U.S. involvement in the ME. So, yeah, I have my reasons. I still cannot understand the second electoral victory. But like I was telling Moreno, POTUS are not above making errors in their evaluation of reports to fit with their wished-for-world. I just think that Obama is quicker to flip-flop than W.
Secondly Ucci, Obama is not making a mess-- it was and has been a mess for decades. I think that how Obama interprets security briefing through the lens of history while W. used the lens of Sacred History, so there is that difference.
If anything, I do have to be critical of my OP for placing undue value on the reports from intelligence agencies because we cannot assume that these reports are always factual and unerring. There is a great deal of interpretation at the point of collection of data and at the receiving end of data, so mistakes can and have been made, so I do give even W. the benefit of the doubt. My only sticking criticism is that W. was too much a product of the Christian Right and his foreign policy pronouncements were in line with this. I don’t believe that foreign policy should be influenced by prayer, as he seems to have done. (MacAskill, 2005). (theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa).

I can stipulate. Although I do have the opinion that as POTUS, you are entitled to go in a different direction than what your advisers want.

Turd/Omar, I agree that Bama should not have said that; however I am sure I dont know that it was an actual mistake. Backtracking; A lot has changed in Lybias financial structure (extremely wealthy nation) that is literally never talked about officially, same goes for all Nato politics. Basically I dont tend to take things as much at face value, especially not in geostrategy. ISIS represents a couple of things for Nato interests, most of all a handy powervacuum. It cant have eluded you that the group never mentions Israel. Why is that? Im on the side of Israel so I wont divulge any strategies I perceive but on the surface we can be pretty clear that if they were to harm an Israeli publically, they would find themselves under burning skies in a matter of hours at gigantic civilian cost. Isis being openly backed by a bunch of powerful ‘friendly’ sunni states I should not have to mention either, is programmed to avoid causing WW3. Israel wont hesitate to set it off if triggered. It would likely play to their advantage in the end. They are one of the very few nations in this theatre that play by the ruthless ancient calculations and dont have to worry about public consensus. All its enemies know this. For example Iran is much more modern in its calculations as it has a delicate electoral balance to keep. The country is divided 50 50 between backward and secularized types. If war were to loom the regime might fall. In Israel the reverse is the case.

Russia would love to carpet raid the group but is modern as well in its political strategies, mwaning again respecting a fickle popular basis, and can not interfere too much, it is playing the European game, having just won the Ukraine standoff it knows to abide its time and not to risk what it does not absolutely need to risk (such as over Crimea, integral part of its military architecture). It also knows that it doesnt know precisely and for a country this big with this much border and so many powerful bordering ootential enemies (EU, Turkey, Iran, Paki-Afghanistan, China, US (Alaska) It will always choose the small underground game. It counts on surviving this by clever situation-by-situation play and not lose too much economic range -that is the bit I agree with.

Whatever very clearly ‘doesnt make sense’ in light of thenassumed will to bring stability to the region is part of a dtrategy to cause chaos and make the muslim world into a plasmic state ready for total transformation. The aim I see is very simple, I leave it up to you to either or not dare to think it as I sure as hell wont speak it, (it is precisely what is never mentioned, it is very naive yo think any strategist would even so much as suggest his true aim) and Russia is trying to figure out a way to benefit from that aim rather than get isolated.

Finally, what Obamas motivations are is truly beyond me as I am not at all sure how the alliances and teleological conflicts within Nato run, it is only clear that that is the sort of stuff I dont want to know - the sort of knowledge that is the opposite of power.

Im just watching it unfold now. This is still WWI, but with an ‘enlightened public’; i.e. a public that demands to be convinced that the wars are in name of human love.

No. I mean, some of the individual fighters, perhaps, but that’s about it.

They knew what ISIS was becoming and still supported the rebels, still allowed, at the very least, support to channel to ISIS. And supporting the rebels in general is not very defensible, I think. What good justification is there for creating a civil war, one which Obama was chomping at the bit to leap into militarily. Even if the rebels were not fanatics, but just good old fundamentalists who would likely want a more religious regime than the present one, still you are going to create mass flight, many deaths, and coming in an bombing which was Obamas plan, always leads to collateral deaths and not just a few. Who the fuck does the US think it is, in this situation. We weighed the pros and cons and decided to shift a rebellion that would probably be shut down into one that would lead to a protracted civil war. I mean seriously, after Afghanistan and Iraq we thought we had the right to play fast and loose with people for their own good. Nah. Not for their own good. So for our goals. But either way immoral. Obama presented himself as radically different from Bush and he has, perhaps more cautiously, shown the same moral outlook.

That the US wants to enter the region and destabilize it and this will be known by the ARab or Muslim nations near Israel is not even in Israels best interests. But I am sorry when an organization repeatedly does the same thing I cannot view and cannot avoid seeing the results, I think the model of seeing it as a mistake is a poor model. Especially when one can see gains for in this case the Neocons. Increased military presence, increased shifts of funds to corporations close to neo cons and neo libs that surround the white house, increased surveillance, increased law enforcement at home and abroad and so on. The policies in Syria will and are leading to all of that. They are in addition tightening Nato and further making member nations act in haste, see Germany and its route to bombing Syria.

Ah, well, good. Some of the same page.

To me his ‘cautiousness’ is a function of the good cop bad cop regime shift in the US. With conservatives seeing Bush as a good cop when one of the Bushes is in office. This allows the good cop to do thing that bad cop cannot. Like many of the environmental polices of Clinton coupled with his final destruction of the social support system. He could do that because he was the good cop for the left. They had a harder time organizing resistance because he was supposedly their President. Obama has been the worst president in relation to whistleblowers, for example, and this is closing holes in power structure that are critical. He also immediately upon coming to office gave power to people in the finance pro group he had been criticizing coming in. He also has at his disposal the most powerful military force every directly handled by a President. I have forgotten their damn name. Of course he is the Chief like other presidents, but a force created before him reports directly to POTUS, iow not via the Pentagon and they do ops all around the world and we tend not to hear about them. Under Obama the black funding has gone way up and the force is much larger. Obama has also shifted via executive decision the way the federal government can come into states in ‘disasters’. One these can now be potential disasters and he no longer needs to be invited by the state, which was protocol before. He personally may never use this, but it is a shift that might have gotten more attention if a conservative president pulled it off. His cautiousness is marketing and smoke screen in relation to liberals. He may be personally cautious. I am not saying he is sitting there rubbing his hands and cackling like Lucifer.

First do little harm, seems, like a reasonable starting point. It is not like what is happening is a surprising result. That Isis got so powerful and extreme might be surprising, though the pattern of supporting radical groups and supposedly losing grip on them is a rather everyday one for the CIA and the US. But that there would be a Civil War with mass refugees and ones who could reach Europe and the US should have been taken as a given, especially since the US was clearly planning to leap in.
s a

And to put in that regime we had to kill tens of thousands, create mass emigration, shatter the region, which will create many more extremists, and so on and so on. And we also shifted vast sums from the public coffer to the private sector enacting without public consent a mass privitization that still people barely talk about. Even Obama does not talk about that, nor did he back then.

Yes, all the interventions are a messy. Hence my conclusion that our hubris should have been contained.

Just try looking at them not as failures but as complete successes. Try that model. If they are complete successes who are they complete successes for and how

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I think the US may not enter a ground war with its own troops. But who knows how dumb things will get and perhaps a Republican is, even a Bush, will be the decider. Or perhaps a woman president wanting to show she is as tough as the boys. Or to put it another way a female good cop in relation to the left, who can make yet another violent mistake, where a bad cop from the right would not be able to pull it off.

Ciao Moreno

I think that you are exaggerating here a bit. They “knew” what ISIS was becoming? No, rather I think it is another case of underestimating your enemy’s resolve. There were many other failed initiatives along the way, such as the army of twelve, which demonstrate that ISIS was not being “allowed”: anything, but unforeseen failures, including the political failure that alienated the Sunnis in Iraq, created the perfect situation in which ISIS could flourish. But lets not pump ISIS too much. As a terrorist organization it is quite formidable, but as a state, which is their aim, they are not.
Civil war, if it leads to a better form of government, representative government, democracy, is worth the human price. Was this the case in Syria? Probably not. Like the WMD were for the Bush administration (a justifying fact), Assad needed to be cast as an outsider. The US did not create the Civil War- it had developed on its own (Through foreign meddling by the Saudis), and once the US saw that it was more than just a mob it decided to give the “rebels” a fighting chance. Was that wrong? They protected the growing terror of ISIS unwittingly; and I say “unwittingly” because I do not believe that the US officials were aiming to replace Assad with the ISIS Caliphate.
I like your question about whether the US should have “assisted” a “rebel” force that would have otherwise been destroyed quickly by Assad’s forces–why not let them die rather than enable the so-called “moderates” or “pious” rebels to resist Assad’s forces, extending the civil unrest? I don’t have a definite answer. Tim Anderson, Senior Lecturer on Political Economy at the University of Sydney presented this view: “The key factor in Syria’s survival has been the cohesion, dedication and popular support for the Army. Syrians know that their Army represents pluralist Syria and has been fighting sectarian, foreign backed terrorism. This Army did not fracture on sectarian lines, as the Takfiris had hoped, and defections have been small, certainly less than 2%.” Syria is a thorn in Saudi Arabia and for Israel, but the perception that Assad “must go” does not extend to the Syrian population. At this point, there is probably more sentiment against Obama than against Assad. In the first multi-candidate election, held in June 2014, with a high turn out (73%) in spite of the war, Assad won the election easily (88%) demonstrating that “there never was a popular uprising against this man; and his popularity has grown.”(Anderson, 2014.) (globalresearch.ca/why-syrian … ad/5405208). So was it right? No. In fact one wonders why Netayahu seems to think that Obama is not doing enough. POTUS has definitely pursued a strategy that supports Israel by reducing (or attempting to reduce, Iran’s influence in the region.

That sounds like the CIA.

Well, staying on topic, I will say only that Obama’s strategy is not a liberal’s dream policy. For all the promises of transparency, it is a strategy that relies on drones firing a record number of missiles on both citizens and non-citizens with little due process. Snowden revealed other ways in ways the administration carries out it’s strategy. But, in light of Paris, such tactics might be what is needed. People asked: “How did the attackers managed to stay off the government radars?” NSA-- that’s the radar they are talking about. Security from a lone-wolf attack might require civil-liberties sacrifices.

No argument there. I agree.

How can we see that? Twin Towers come crashing down-- that’s your version of success? The model does not work. And if that was a pretext, fine, then what about the Pentagon? Another success? What about the USS Cole? Terrorism IS a problem-- not a success story.