The proof of God

The proof of God
The divine knowledge alone can be the proof of the God as per Veda. The exceptional quality of the divine knowledge (Prajnanam) is the spontaneous proof. You can experience the available highest quality of the knowledge and there is no need of any testing procedure for that. How are you selecting the Miss. World? You are experiencing the spontaneous beauty directly and there is no need of instruments to test the beauty. You are selecting the top most beauty in the available competition. If you say that some higher beauty may exist somewhere and some time in this world, the result of the competition can never be declared.

Only ugly sadists may tell like that. Gita says that the possessor of such top most knowledge that can give the most perfect guidance to the souls is God Himself (Jnanitvatmaiva…). The importance of Divine knowledge is only due to the importance of correct guidance in the spiritual path. For this the exhibition of miracle is not required. The exhibition of super power through the miracle is needed only for the low level atheists and to punish the low level devils. When a Police Officer is invited to address the college, he goes in normal civil dress. When he has to deal with criminals, he will be in the Police uniform. Even there, he will send his subordinates in the uniform to deal with the criminals. But he will not send his subordinates in uniform to address the college.

Similarly God comes to preach the Divine knowledge and sends His subordinates to exhibit miracles. Since majority is in the lower strata, the miracles have to be exhibited widely. Hence God gives the Super powers even to devils. The miracles include even the miraculous experiences in the life of any one, which prove the existence of unimaginable God.

Miracles and knowledge are the two requirements of people here in lower and higher levels respectively. Generally God meets directly the requirement of higher level. The liberated souls who are the servants of God generally meet the requirement of lower level.

My friend (maybe?), I don’t think such proof is necessary. There is something at the basis of even science that proves the existence of…something. I actually trust that more than any “Holy Text” written by a human. They could easily have been fooled or have been crazy (no offense).

Here’s how I justify God. Say…let’s take the Formation of a planet. Rocks collide and attract each other because of gravity, right? And the force of gravity depends on how large a certain rock is. Therefore, the force of gravity increases. Logical enough. What causes gravity? What makes gravity work, why do those rocks stick together rather than just explode? Maybe it’s the vacuum of space or something. But why is space a vacuum? I haven’t broken down the questions enough, but if you ask the question “Why?” enough times, you get to a point where, like an element, you can’t break it down anymore. You have to take it as a given. The only reason I can think of for those “Givens” to even exist is because God made them, then the Universe built themselves up from those basic laws.

If you see just a leaf and observe it deeply with the knowledge of Botany, you will be shocked with the miraculous work of God which reveals its unimaginable design, unimaginable co-ordination of functions of various cells etc. Through such unimaginable structure of the leaf you are first recognizing the unimaginable super power (Maya) of God. Immediately you will accept the possessor of the super power (Mayi) who is the Lord as said in the subsequent line of the same verse (Mayinamtu Maheshwaram….).

Therefore, the deep analysis of the nature which is Science is exposing the miracle of God to every body in this world and there is no need of a separate miracle. Therefore, Science is the best religion exposing the existence of God to every ordinary human being on this earth including atheist. Therefore, I have given a place for Science in the symbol of Universal Spirituality.

A scientist does not require a separate miracle to recognize the existence of God like a realized soul since the deeper analysis of this nature reveals the unimaginable power of God and there by His existence. A scientist who does not believe the existence of God is not a scientist at all. Thus, an ordinary ignorant devotee is helped by God through unimaginable ways. The exceptionally excellent devotee finds God’s help even through the natural ways. He thinks that even the natural respiration is by the grace and power of God only.

Finally, something we agree on :smiley:

From the beginning of the creation of this world, man was searching for God. Some people were satisfied by realizing the existence of God, which was experienced by them through some items of creation and through some important incidents in the life. They never claimed that they have detected God [known Him completely]. They had only analyzed the entire creation and found that no item of the creation is God.

They declared that nobody could detect God [know His real nature]. Therefore, they concluded that God is unimaginable. But they said that God exists because they have experienced the existence of God through some items of creation, which are imaginable and through some incidents, which can be analyzed. The medium through which they experienced God can never be God. Therefore, God was unimaginable for them. This is the correct approach to God.

But some egoistic people, who were very confident of their intelligence, analyzed and declared that they detected the real nature of God. They said that the real nature of God is awareness.

They mean that awareness is God Himself. In saying so, they have claimed to have imagined God and for them, who are highly intellectual, God is imaginable [even though most people may not be able to imagine Him as awareness]. But in reality, they were either egoistic in claiming to have detected the real form of God or they were impatient to accept the unimaginable God. The so-called awareness discovered by these people can never be God because awareness is not a completely unimaginable item. Of course, one has to take lot of pains in imagining the pure awareness, which is very very near to the unimaginable God.

The item, which is imagined by a lot of analysis and lot of difficulty, can only be an item imaginable with great difficulty. It can be treated as almost unimaginable but it cannot be the perfectly unimaginable God.
Several statements of the Veda clearly declare that God is completely unimaginable under all circumstances. Silence alone can indicate God. Silence means that no word can be used to indicate God.

In the creation every imaginable item has a specific name, which cannot be used for any other imaginable item. For example the word pot means only a particular object. The word cloth means another particular object. You cannot use one word for any other object. But God can enter any item of the creation. Therefore, the name of every item can be used to indicate God, since there is no specific word for God, who is not a specific object at all. Even if God does not enter an item, the name of that item can be used to indicate God, because you are keeping that item as a representative of God.

For example God never enters an inert planet like the sun. But the sun can still represent God due to some similarities. God removes ignorance. The sun removes darkness. The lotus buds are opened by sun. The ignorant intelligence is also enlightened by God. Therefore, the sun can represent God to some extent. Therefore, the word ‘sun’ can also represent God. Thus, in one extreme end, no word can indicate God (Yato vachah-Veda).

At the other extreme end, the name of any item into which God can enter, or any item which can represent God, can be used to indicate God. All the prayers to God such as the prayer of the thousand names (Sahasra Nama), indicate God. When a word indicates God, it is the name of the medium into which either God has entered or which stands as a representative of God. This means you can experience God through a specific medium when God enters it. Alternatively, you can also imagine the experience of the existence of God through a representative item like the sun.

You can experience the existence of God through a human incarnation like Lord Krishna, because God has entered and exists in the human body of Krishna. In case of the sun, you can imagine the existence of God through the properties of the sun. Thus, there is a difference between the worship of the human incarnation and the worship of the representative item like the sun, statue etc. The Veda says that you can worship the sun as God, which means that sun is not directly God (Adityam Brahma iti…Veda). There is a difference between the direct worship of the king and the indirect worship of his photograph. In both cases the king is pleased. But in the direct worship, the king is extremely pleased because every bit of your service is experienced by the king directly. When God enters the human body, God has not become the human body. God is in the human body. Therefore, the human body is not God. You can only experience God through the human body.

Therefore, by seeing the human body of the incarnation, you have not seen God, but you have only experienced God through that human body. Therefore, God is invisible. Of course, a devotee can be satisfied by treating the human body as God and can feel satisfied that he has seen God. From this angle the Veda says, “A blessed fellow has seen God” (Kaschit Dhirah…). This is only an assumption. You can assume an electric wire as the electric current because you experience the current by touching the wire anywhere. Therefore, for all practical purposes the electric wire is the current. Thus, there is a very narrow delicate margin between the reality and assumption in this case. To solve this very delicate difference, you can say that the wire is the current from the point of experience of the existence of current and thus this assumption is perfectly correct.

But if you say that you have actually seen the electric current, we must say that you have seen only the wire and not the current because the current is invisible. Therefore, the conclusion is that you can experience the existence of the current through the wire but you cannot see the current actually. Thus, God’s existence is experienced through the human incarnation but God is not imagined.

The the Gita says that nobody knows God (Mamtu Veda Nakaschana…). This verse establishes the complete unimaginability of God. Again the Gita says that one blessed devotee in millions, can experience the existence God (Kaschit mam…). These two verses will contradict with each other if you say that the first verse means that nobody knows God and the second verse means that one knows God. The first verse means that the real nature or form of God cannot be known. The second verse means that the existence of God can be known. The Veda also presents these two sides. Several Vedic statements reveal that God is completely unimaginable and can never be known. In the Veda, Lord Yama says that they (great sages) have come to know that God cannot be known (yasyamatam tasyamatam). This statement indicates the point that God is completely unimaginable.

The Veda again says that only the existence of God can be known (Astiityevopalabdhavyah). This statement does not contradict the first statement. Thus, the Veda and the Gita are exactly synchronized in this context.

Awareness is indicated by the words like Atman (soul) or ‘I’. Advaita scholars feel that [by detecting the Atman] they have detected the real nature or form of God, which is the awareness. No doubt, awareness is almost an unimaginable item. But it does not mean that awareness is completely unimaginable. Of course, if you cross the awareness, nothing further is known. Awareness is in the climax position of the entire creation. It is the greatest of all the items of creation and therefore it is called as Brahman. It is the greatest among all the imaginable items. These scholars say that awareness is unimaginable to the majority of people. Therefore, they say that God is unimaginable with respect to the majority, who are ignorant. [They equate God to this Awareness]. Since scholars are in minority, only scholars can know the real form of God. This is their interpretation of the above two statements in the Veda and the Gita. They do not stop here.

They go one step further and say that since awareness is in every human being. If anybody knows and identifies himself with the pure awareness present in his body, he becomes God because God is pure awareness. To support this idea, they quote the Veda which says that the knower of Brahman becomes Brahman (Brahma vit Brahmaiva bhavati). They also quote the Gita that the knower is God (Jnani Tvatmaiva…). The actual meaning of this Vedic statement is that God alone is the knower of God. The scholars reverse this and say that the knower of God becomes God. Their reverse meaning contradicts the Gita, which says that nobody can know God. The the Gita says that the knower is Atman, but it does not mean that the knower is God. This is because Atman is not God. This statement of the Gita only means that by self-realization one can become the Self or Atman.

1)How about the fact that science cannot explain the first cell. Take into consideration that the nature of all energy is to equal out. So there is a chemical pool that the chemical energy didn’t equal out. It was layered by density or fed from a underground vent. Then a group of amino acids clumped together to form protiens. (science has made amino acids but not protiens under this model) These protiens were swirled around to form a cell wall,… then somehow stayed together. This allowed controled ozmisis by chemical density. Witch allowed the heat to expand the cell wall and allow controlled ozmosis of other chemicals. This allowed energy to be contained in a cell wall. Yet there is still the very thing needed to have life… Reproduction. It takes a nucleus, two seperate complex chemicals inside and outside the nucleus,… and a dozon seperate parts to have life including DNA. All of this is simple but with a complex process. The chances of this just falling in place then being magically zapped to stay in place,… well that’s about 1 to 9 to the 9billionth power. Or even greater.

  1. The nature of energy is to equal out. Yet they have noticed that black holes will stop feeding. They theorize it would take more mass for the black hole to actually reach the rest of the galaxy. Thus starting some kind of perpetual motion. Big band theory has a big hole.

  2. The nature of all energy is to equal out. So opposites attract. The four basic aub atomic particles are attracted to eachother. The religious theory says that everything comes from nothing. To create something out of nothing you have to create it’s opposite also. Thus divide nothing into four, and when these four equal out you have the phanomanom of quantum fluctuation.

  3. The soul is an energy independent of matter, yet has a residual effect to matter. Thus matter reacts to the soul. Thus the brain is a complex chemical energy storage facility that each section reacts to certain spiritual energies.

  4. The Holy Spirit heals the soul. An emence feeling that can only be explained as spiritual. Thus science hasn’t touched it.

Proof of God’s Existance (for ignorant people difficulties are necessary to recognize God)

If you are ignorant and not a completely realized soul about the God, the divine help comes to you through unimaginable way so that you will recognize God without any doubt. If the help from God comes to you in an imaginable way, you will not recognize the divine help and God in that incident. Suppose you are getting the monthly salary after doing the job in a month. You will think that the salary is the fruit of your work which is a natural way of getting the fruit. But suppose you have not done work in a month and some body not known to you comes suddenly and donates the exact amount of the salary to you and goes away.

Then you will recognize God’s help through that unknown person. Therefore, for ignorant people difficulties are necessary to recognize God, because only difficulties can accommodate the unimaginable events as proof for God, since they do not treat the imaginable events as works of God.

Hence, Jesus told “Blessed are those who believe Me without proof”. Here proof means a miracle which is the unimaginable event. Therefore, proof always needs troubles for you. When you want proof from God, He will wait till you get problems according to your cycle of deeds. For the sake of giving proof, God will not create troubles. When the difficulties come, then He will help you through unimaginable way so that you will recognize God and get yourself uplifted. Therefore, the miracles which are unimaginable are needed for ignorant people only who are almost atheists. But certain rigid atheists treat even this unimaginable incident as imaginable only. Such atheist thinks that the person who gave that amount must have been mad and the exact amount of salary is just a co-incidence.

Duryodhana(A demon) treated the cosmic vision given by the Lord as an illusion of the eye through magic. For such rigid atheists, God will not perform any miracle or may perform once and leave them forever since the realization will never come in their case. Therefore, the aim of the miracles is only to help the spiritual path and not solving your petty problems faced by you according to the cycle of your deeds. God will certainly do miracles if He has a hope about you that the miracles will help you in the spiritual path. Often the devotees pray God to do miracles for the sake of spiritual path but in their hearts the aim is to solve their problems only. They forget that God is omniscient and knows the heart of their hearts and therefore in such cases, He keeps silent. The hope about the progress of your spiritual path through miracle should come in God’s mind by itself and not by your request.

If you are already a realized soul, the divine help comes through imaginable ways like help through human beings because the recognition of God is not necessary for you. The ultimate aim of the miracle is only to help you to recognize the existence of God and once you have recognized the existence of God, miracles are useless. Hence miracles are limited to the very basic level only. If you are a realized soul, you have already recognized God and have firm faith in Him. For you every thing and every work in this world is only the work of God. For you every monthly salary is given by God only through your employer. You will not think that your work is responsible for getting the monthly salary. You know that even the work done by you is also due to the power of God only. Therefore, in your case even the natural event is the work of God and is His miracle only. You thank God whenever you receive the monthly salary. For you, this world which is a composite of natural and logical phenomenae is also simultaneously a composite of super natural works of God, which are called as miracles.

All the nature which appears as imaginable becomes unimaginable if you go deeply into it with the help of science. In this context the Lord said that on realization of the deeper phase of nature by scientific analysis, one has to accept that even the imaginable nature (Prakruti) is the unimaginable power or work (Maya) of God in the deeper structure. For such a realized soul, separate miracles are not necessary since he finds the entire cosmos as the greatest miracle of the God.

The endless space with infinite galaxies of stars and planets itself is a biggest miracle of God, standing as a direct proof for the super power of God. This is the aim of showing the infinite cosmic vision of God to Arjuna. Therefore, if you just look into the sky and realize the infinite energetic stars and space, you have obtained the cosmic vision of the Lord!

There is no need of a separate cosmic vision because the same miracle is just before your eyes and God is giving this cosmic vision to every one in every minute, which is a proof of His existence. The second Brahma Sutra says that the existence of God is inferred from the infinite cosmos and its unimaginable nature in the deeper structure.

sigh All business? Too serious for me…I get disheartened when things get too serious.

I don’t see God in extraordinary events. I call that “Luck”. I see God in the everyday things that don’t even have to exist.

God is unimaginable, uncomprehendable and beyond logic. The creation is the imagination of the Lord. 1%(qualitatively) of His imagination was converted into ‘pure awareness’ and does not contain God and 100% of this pureawarness has become the universe. Thus God does not exist in the creation. The creator is above creation and is unaffected by it.

The aim of the creation was the entertainment of Lord. God enters the creation through the finest item of the creation, i.e. human being. He enters the human body for giving His presence to the world. By doing so, He is not modified into that human body or soul. He is then known as 'Human Incarnation". He gives the facility of touch, talk and seeing to His dearest devotees who really wished to serve Him. Only His devotees identify Him rest all will mock Him seeing His human body.

The identification mark of Lord in Human form is the ‘True Divine Knowledge’, which removes our ignorance without any trace. He also does miracles whenever there is an urgency, and not for ‘crowd pulling’ or ‘show’. He Himself is the founder of the rules of nature. By doing miracles He is violating His own rules, it is a violation of His own administration, thus He performs miracles whenever there is a great necessity. He should be identified by His divine knowledge.

God comes in every human generation in human form for the upliftment of Souls.

The amazing complexity of nature does not prove God…

It proves two gods, or three…

Maybe more than three?

I mean, it’s allot of work to make a universe. It makes more sense to me that many many many gods made the universe. And those gods are not limited to a single ego or name, as such limit is far too reductive. All of these little gods work together and sometimes against eachother. They are known as power, energy, force, direction, consciousness, and interaction… Monism is anything but proven, and a simple perspecitve shift can take away the ego and put in its place the larger multiplicity of nature. We can still have reality and sentience without this abused and old word “god”.

Human Incarnation present in this generation is the correct place of Lord

When you are an item of creation, your ways and efforts cannot be supernatural and they must follow the natural rules of creation, which are again science only. Therefore you must use the logical scientific analysis in analysing yourself and your path to reach God. But God is beyond this creation who is the Creator. Therefore God cannot be analysed by science. When the goal is above science the scientific path cannot be meaningful because the scientific path will lead to such goal only, which can be analysed by science. For e.g.: let us take the path to Bombay, the path is on the Earth and Bombay is also on the Earth.

A path that can be analysed by logic can reach the goal, which must be also analysed by the logic. If I start the journey to God and ask the path to reach Him, nobody can show the path because the God is invisible. An invisible goal will always have an invisible path. Nobody can travel in invisible path. One can show the path to a holy temple. If God exists in the statue, such path is a true path. The main purpose of reaching God is to know the whole knowledge of yourself, the correct path and the correct goal. The reason is that God is the best preacher since all the matters are related to God. Therefore the Human Incarnation is the correct place of God.

The human incarnation consists of a visible human body so that the path to reach Him also becomes visible. Since God is in the human incarnation, by reaching that human body you have reached God. In fact God pervaded all over the body and you have reached the God. The God becomes visible through human body and therefore the path to reach God is also visible. The main purpose to reach God is to hear the correct version of the entire spiritual knowledge. Then through service you have to please the God. In the case of statue, it is not preaching any trace of knowledge.

Moreover when we serve the statute it is not appearing pleased on its face. Due to these two reasons neither God is in the statute nor God is the statute (Na tasya Pratima- Veda). The statute in the human form is a model to indicate the human form of the Lord. The ignorant human beings who cannot accept the human form of the God due to egoism and jealousy can worship the statute as training for sometime to worship the human form of Lord in future (Pratimahyalpa Buddhinam- Smruti). But one should not sit in the training through out his life. If he sits in the training only, he is born as an inert object like stone (Bhutejya yanti- Gita).

‘God doesn’t listen, and even if he did, he wouldn’t know how to help.’ - Nietzsche


Real Worship of Lord

Mostly people love Lord for their desires to be fulfilled. If something goes wrong or if things are out of control then we rush to lord and start prayers etc. This devotion is like a prostitute loving her customer. If one really loves Lord without any desire, then only Lord will be pleased.
When a beggar approaches us, we generally offer him whatever is least useful to us. But, when a relative comes to our house, we provide him with good food, facilities and even ask him to stay for some more time. Why is the difference in our approach? Beggar comes to us for what we give. He is not having any love to us. Whereas a relative has not come for our food and facilities, he has come to see us. This shows the love.
So, our approach to Lord should be with love and affection as relative but not like beggar, who approaches us only for satisfying the desires. We should not worship lord only to satisfy our desire. Prayers by words, meditation by mind and intelligence in spiritual discussions form a preliminary level of worship.
The devotee should search for a Satguru or Lord in human form (like Jesus, Krishna and Prophet Mohammed) to learn the divine knowledge. After gaining the divine knowledge from the Lord in human form, at His directive only he should participate in His service in the mission.
His mission is to uplift the human beings by preaching the divine knowledge. Service consists of donating money and physically participating in His mission of divine knowledge propagation. Such real service is the only proof of our real love towards Lord.

We are serving our family by spending hard earned money for them and also serving physically. Where as when we come to Lord, we express our love by prayers, meditation and spiritual discussions only, which are given freely by Lord to everybody.

Hence God is not even comparable to family members but in prayers we project Him on top.

Well, some people (Emerson and Thoreau, as much as I disagree with much of their views) would say that if God helped, we would become useless.

I believe in people (read my sig, it’s a pretty accurate description of me), so I think we can solve our problems without Divine intervention.


Should we not ask god for help?

If you are ordinary person you should follow the rules of your deeds and nature. If you are a devotee, even then, you should not ask God for help. Your devotion must not aspire any result. You are asking God for help means that you want God to violate his own natural rules. The impression of millions of angles and sages is disturbed if God violates his own rules. That will give a poor impression on God. You are putting God to inconvenience by forcing him to use his supernatural power. Whether you are a devotee or not, you must always try to solve your problems by putting your best effort.

If you fail, even then, do not ask God to help you. Then, you think that it is your fate and worship God as usual. Therefore, if you put your best effort, still fail because it is beyond your limits, if you happen to be a real devotee and do not ask for the help from God, then you will be helped by the super power secretly. The secrecy is due to preservation of the sacredness of his administration in the eyes of others.

If the proof of God is that which we cannot explain with science, then what is the proof of our existence?

Can science explain the self, or ego? Or is there no proof of anything, even your thoughts and beliefs? Are the nihilists right in their own mind, or wrong in yours?

Just because we cannot explain things with science, does not make them divine.

Where in the Bible does the Christian God create the same one cell you are debating?

True enough. I’m just saying that those things we can’t explain don’t even have to be in the first place. It’s not the fact that we can’t explain it that makes it divine, but the fact that they even exist.

The proof that I (at least) exist is that I think. The proof that you do is that, in my mind at least, you think for yourself, thus you exist as well. You can contend that we don’t “truly” exist if you want. I’m saying that I perceive myself to be “real”, and that’s reality enough.

Remember: some things are given. You can’t reject an idea out of hand just because you can’t explain it or there’s no proof (well, to an extent, but there should be a reason to).

Before we can determine how to prove if God exists, don’t we have to agree on what we mean by the word God?

Not really, we just have to choose what somebody else means by God, and examine that. Once we conclude whether or not that exists, we can move on to what somebody else means when they say it. Trying to get us all to agree on what God would be if He existed, when some of us might be atheists or what-have-you would be impossible!

OK. You’re right. Actually dattaswami has already stated that God is unimaginable, uncomprehendable(sic) and beyond logic. He is defining God in terms of what God is not. By that definition God is impossible to prove. Dan days there are multiple gods known as power, energy, force, direction, consciousness, and interaction. Those are provable, but, as he admits, not “God.” I’m not sure what the others mean.

I have defined God as being itself, the power of being or the ground of being. But like dattswami’s definition, that goes beyond logic to the purely symbolic. In a previous discussion here I learned that you cannot make positive logical statements about God’s attributes, e.g. his omnipotence, without considering God as a being. Whether those statements have ultimate truth is another matter. Perhaps God is the topic which best conforms to Wittgenstein’s maxim that ‘Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent’