The real problem with homosexuality, bisexuality and transsexuality

And what reasons did I give for that? Does REconstructive surgery transform someone into another gender? And did I actually recommend hormone therapy for anyone?

And what does the literature have to say about the health risks of hormone therapy involving birth control, and for older women treating symptoms of menopause?

And how long was it before the tobacco industry stopped fudging the research results and had to start taking responsibility for their influence on cancer, etc?

Did they ever attempt to call smoking respiration-affirming care? Withdrawn.

I think the only reason you’ve given is a rejection of acting as though one is “something that they are not”, or working against “actual biology”. And I’ve pointed out that those are true of dyed hair, makeup, cosmetic surgery, and gender-affirming care for cis boys with gynecomastia.

Why is that specific transition important in a way that the transition from being a boy with boobs to being a boy without boobs isn’t?

No, though you have not objected in the 50 posts since I brought it up. What is your actual position on hormone therapy?

Are you saying that is not a good reason on my part? Don’t they use the same reason to justify a sex change operation?

It feels like you’re not really hearing me. Part of me doesn’t want to repeat myself because it feels like more words are not going to solve that problem, but I’m going to try one more time. Sorry that I probably sound like a bitch right now.

As for the boy with boobs… say he wants to keep those boobs as if he is a woman… AND get a vasectomy because he thinks it will make him less male…

As for hormone therapy, I think you have to weigh the drawbacks. Especially if you’re gonna be taking a steroid like testosterone that already has very well-known drawbacks. Siri just told me, and I believe them, that hormone therapy involves the risk of cancers associated with those hormones. etc. etc. etc..

You tried to reply to this saying that the vast majority of trans people don’t think that way. If they are going through with a sex change operation, they absolutely do think that way. It’s a freaking tragedy.

Silenus’s opinion is not biased as you claim, simply because it does not agree with your “research”, in fact some research on the topic points to the very opposite of what you are trying to enforce.

It is a personal choice whether to accept or express disapproval of the practice of homosexuality in society today. If it was natural as you are trying to convey one would not feel a disgust, it would be accepted without question as ‘normal’.

The best established facts in relation to homosexuality point to developmental-psychological, not genetic or physiological causation.

For what it’s worth, I appreciate it. I’m trying to hear you and respond to your actual arguments, and I apologize for the failure of communication. As with all our disagreements, I am convinced that your position comes from a place of sincere compassion for those affected; you just sound like you’re frustrated with someone obstinately defending beliefs and practices you view as harmful.

I agree it follows that if it’s wrong to change one’s body to become something one is not, then it follows that it’s wrong to change one’s body in that specific way.

My point is that it is not wrong to change one’s body to become something one is not; as evidence I offer other examples of how people change their bodies, and I contend these are also examples of becoming “something one is not”.

And from your reiteration of your point, I think that last contention is a crux of our disagreement: You would contend (I think) that changing ones body from superficially-male to superficially-female is a different kind of change from changing ones body from superficially-male-with-boobs to superficially-male-without-boobs; I contend that they are different examples of the same thing (broadly, body modification).

Am I correct that this is one of our central disagreements?

No, they don’t. Again, they aren’t typically delusional: they understand the physical reality of their body, they just aren’t happy with it. They understand that the changes they can make to their body are superficial, and they aren’t expecting to believe themselves into ovulating or menstruating or growing a womb.

I think this also is a crux of our disagreement.

As usual but I may cut it out, I have my own theory, and some of it comes from my undergrad philosophy class, re: Marcus Aurelius. That is that an untested virtue, is not really virtuous. Admittedly post Kinsey, all have had their curious stage, and for some curiosity kills the cat or something like that.

Again comes irony, on the deepest levels, even from them, that the so called Platonic Love, there was more meant than the naked eye could perceive. Socrates paid a heavy price for leading young men down the wrong road, and perhaps(for I am not sure) Plato was badly, literally misquoted on that. That Socrates was a total but unintentional hypocrite, as described in the Banquet, a leacherous man full of voles and pretensions, can be held against him. However the hyperbolae disengaged from his conscious awareness, as the gods directed him for caring that the boys do not go through it, for who can live with vanity, jealousy, and mayhem.

There was a man in fact more men who claimed to kill themselves after they reached 30, or after loosing their looks. Which comes first.

The point is, that the irresistible platonic image behioves the imagination that imminent reflection can cast, the transcending of images into an eternal model diminishes the idea of genetic absolutism, where lower level specie of sentiment, human beings are discouraged to participate.

The magic was rekindled out of the natural need to create forms of beauty that Levi Strauss coined ‘a mystery. That idea can be supported by other forms of cultural aesthetic, such as those of the orient, and other cultural ideals.

It is not insignificant that Eurocentric ideals were transvalued by German philosophers. In the ‘photographic period’ it was German photographers catering to aristocracy who excelled in male photos of pubescent boys of Greece and Arabia.

These are fleeting thoughts meant not to void the love of men, but to secularize the asexual non objectivism accounting for the non objective of mature men raising other men’s boys, for instance. There is a difference in kind here, subtle and as yet generally unrecognized. Such even carry over to the parallel between pre-Homeric narratives and the pre-objective, non idolized political brutalities of things to come. The effects of unrecognized subtlety effected inordinate brutality and the rise of sadism.

Point in contention to Jack Kerouac observation, that he rejected homosexuality on principle.

Why? He also lived with his mom, who slaved away at a Lowell sjhoe factory, to support him at Columbia, , was discharged from the navy for schizotypal-effective symptoms,etc, etc, Catholic upbringing morphing with Buddhism at later stage.

No wonder the lonesome traveler has a revelation in Paris,

Causing Ginsberg to howl he thinks he IS Kerouac, when confronted ( his admitted style of introduction) with Peter Orlovsky, arm in arm.

So why the control? Neal Cassidy and all, he somehow knew it was such idol worship, or write it down, just as homosexuality becomes a compensation for an undisclosed alienation.

You are cordially invited now to elaborate on this.

Funny that you mention Socrates. It’s always astonishing to me how the ancient Greeks dealt with topics such as the one I’ve brought about here. They had such a broader and more refined understanding of things that it’s almost tempting to think of regression in terms of human thinking. I mean, how can we still be “shocked” by naked bodies when 2500 years ago people saw it as something entirely acceptable and harmless?

Of course homosexual behavior wasn’t officially “sanctioned” in the times of Socrates and Plato. Socrates talks about “ephebes” in a rather romantic and idealized way, it’s hard to imagine him actually “engaging” with them. Any way, discussion about homosexuality or any other sexual behavioral variation in ancient Greece would be much more enlightening and fulfilling than in our awkward times, where people get hysterical about what they IMAGINE others do in their private lives. If only our deranged and trouble makers were more like Socrates and less like Bible belt warriors.

There are numerous references in defence of my standpoint, as there will be in yours.

But my curiosity is peaked, what little gem in the form of reply do you have “up your sleeve”.

Homosexuality in ancient Greece, … well they called it Pederasty. LOL

“there is nothing new under the sun” Ecclesiastes 1:9.

He asked you to elaborate. Just saying “there are numerous references” isn’t elaborating.

Do you have a special/personal interest in this? Just saying.

It’s effectively impossible to predict an individual’s sexual behavior from their genome.

— Ben Neale, geneticist at Massachusetts General Hospital and the Broad Institute

The study of nearly a half million people closes the door on the debate around the existence of a so-called “gay gene.”

That is good enough for me.

Is that it? That’s all you’ve got for your best established facts?

Yep.

Feel free to elaborate, I have lost interest in this topic!

My apologies.

well one single guy saying it’s impossible to predict from a genome is being wildly misinterpreted by you. You’re saying “that means it’s not genetic or physiological”, that’s not what it means.

First, there are more ways for something to be “physiological” than being genetic. Second of all, that experimenter explicitly says there IS a genetic component, it’s just extremely complex.

You’re oversimplifying from one single quote from one single researcher and jumping to conclusions.

That is one quote I have volunteered to give.
Not the only one I have read.
Like I said one could go either way with this depending on whether it is important enough to pursue.
I sense your sympathies lie with all being beyond the physical/mental control of a person, they are born with it, so to speak.
I don’t believe this, I believe “there is no gay gene” and if there has been any further evidence to dispute this I “cordially invite you” to tell all.

It is like debating whether we evolved or were created, it can never really be settled one way or the other, it gets down to what one believes.

Are you heterosexual? Do you believe your heterosexuality is a choice? Could you choose to be gay and like it?

According to the simple scenario, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is what counts: with it, you are male, and without it, you are female.

Or in other words, if you want to know whether someone is male or female, it may be best just to ask.

Are you heterosexual? Do you believe your heterosexuality is a choice? Could you choose to be gay and like it?

I am a heterosexual female.

Would I choose to be gay?

That would be an intellectual decision I would have to make.

From what I observe the answer would be No.