K: sure you can deport them, and the cost of lettuce, shopping,
restaurants (those that can actually stay open) will all rise
phenomenally. California is the 5th largest economy in the world
and take out the illegals and our economy would collapse and
take out the rest of america with it."
Mast: There is not any factual basis to this bunk. Summarily none. That is just propagandised bs. Those jobs would be filled with American dredges, as opposed to illegal alien dredges.
K: Have you ever been to California?
I have lived here over 30 years.
Our economy is totally driven by illegal aliens.
You find them working in about several million jobs out here.
American workers would not put up with the shit the illegals do.
You say americans would take those jobs. No, they won’t.
You have really low paid jobs and doing really ugly work.
Americans won’t do that anymore.
K: And do you know the cost of not insuring people?
Preventive health care would save billions of dollars every
year and thousands of lives. And making taxes the main criteria
is shameful. You just made paying taxes more important then people’s
lives. I think people are more important then money, I would
only hope you someday come to that conclusion."
M: I’m a misanthrope Mr. K. If you aren’t my family, you have little to no value within the context of my life. Neither do I value money, but the world does, so there is no choice but to play the rules of the moronic majority.
The cost of insuring millions of illegals, and the rest of the willingly unemployed dredges in California is more than could be procurred through the tax base. It simply isn’t feasible, unless everyone in California who does work, is willing to give up 45% of their income to support socialised healthcare.
K: Not at all. universal health care works in canada and in Europe.
A study I saw a few months ago, reported that france had a
better health care system then the U.S. And what of the cost of
care now? Even with medical insurance, people can’t afford health
care. Although I must ask, how do you afford health care.
Do you pay out of pocket? I suspect you are fully covered in
some sort of plan that you don’t pay for. Thus you don’t realize the
true cost of health care.
M: People have to be responsible for their own welfare, not depending on the state or federal government to give handouts, at the rest of the working taxpayer’s expense.
K: and what about those through no fault of their own, who gets
laid off or suffer a medical issue again through no fault of their own.
What if you had no job. See that is the problem. You speak of them
out there and don’t address your situation. If you lost your job,
or suffer from cancer, how would you deal with it?
You speak brave talk, but when the rubber hits the road,
I suspect that you would be begging for aid from the government.
K: and how do you suggest people pay their outrages medical bills.
You can’t ignore it and you can’t afford it, so what do you do?
A friend of mine mom, fell down and broke her arm (she is 70+)
and by the time all the bills were paid, it cost them over 10,000 dollars.
10 thousand for a broken arm!! I would hate to see what would happen
if a real injury occurred. Or my recent surgery, I had two disks removed
from my neck and replaced with two cadavers disk, thank god it was
a workers comp injury, because I suspect the surgery cost
close to 100,000 bucks, but without the surgery I was at real
risk to become paralysed and imagine how much that would
have cost. Image if I had to pay for the surgery out of pocket.
We would have to declare bankruptcy for a surgery I had to have.
[/quote]
M: I agree, there are conditions which are and have been unacceptable. The first order of business is to force reform on both the medical and insurance industries, by any means necessary. I had my first knee surgery four years ago, a simple scoping for a bucket handle tear of the meniscus in the left knee. Total bill was close to six thousand for a forty five minute surgery and two weeks/4 visits of physical therapy. Is that reasonable? No. This is the first tier of the problem, and must be dealt with first.
K: Ok, you just agreed with my points, lock stock and barrel.
Now how would you suggest you fix this problem without a
major overall of some nature. Tweaking the system is not
going to fix something so fucked up. The second point is
you say force reform on both medical and insurance industries
“BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY” That means the government.
How else would you fix a system whereas you have certain
monopolies that make a great deal of money from this screwed up
system, HMO’S. How would you force them to give up a great
gig without some serious power?
K: and how are people responsible for getting cancer or car accidents,
or broken arms. The three leading causes of bankruptcy is
losing a job, getting a divorce and medical bills. People are clearly
not responsible for the myriad of medical issues that occur every day
in millions of lives. How does one become responsible for those medical
issues that plague our live? I would suggest you are ignoring the reality
of life here. I am sure you have a medical condition of some sort,
how are you responsible for that medical condition? What choices did
you make for that medical condition? I was BORN hard of hearing,
I wear a hearing aid (in my one good ear, the other ear is damaged
beyond help) what choices did I make that caused me to be hearing
impaired? You miss some very important reasons for medical bills."
M: No disrespect Mr. K, but excuses get old. First off, Amerikans are the fattest on the planet per capita. Obesity leads to other conditions. Then there are all the habits we accumulate through our lives, to the further detriment of our bodies - caffeine, sugar, alcohol, drugs, smoking, unchecked pollution, fossil fuel transportation … the list goes on and on.
K: yah, excuses like someone getting a brain tumors. That old excuse
certainly does get old and my being hearing impaired, that is certainly
a tired old excuse not to hear the world. Of course, why didn’t I realize
that any time people get cancer or MS or a liver disease that it
is just an tired old excuse to to be a burden on society. I should have
known. You can get cancer and still have a perfectly healthy lifestyle.
To blame people for illnesses they have no control over is
quite, umm, I not actually sure of the word. And of course in
your situation, you lead a perfectly healthy lifestyle. NO caffeine,
NO sugar, NO alcohol, drugs, smoking, none of this unchecked
pollution in your neighborhood or fossil fuel transportation anyway
near you, Right? You might want to reconsider not tossing rocks
from glass houses.
M: The truth is that Amerikans, as well as being fatasses, are pathetic lazy asses who refuse positive change in the face of maintaining unhealthy habits. Too bad. Bad choices come with consequences, and that doesn’t make it my financial responsibility because Joe Smith likes to get his drunk on everyday, and smoke dope, and has genetic conditions which increase his risks of heart disease, liver disease and cancer.
K: and I’m sorry, are you also a pathetic, fat ass lazy american?
And of course your choices are at all times, perfect and without
consequences? That is the problem with your argument.
Because I can guess you don’t live up to your ideal.
Whereas I exist in the real world, where we are not perfect,
we are flawed, and we do eat too much and drink too much,
and certainly don’t exercise enough and so what? Your accusation
basically is you want perfect humans being and on planet earth,
we aren’t perfect. And if we could live up to your ideal, would
that mean that there would be no diseases or illness, no death?
If you lived up to your own ideal, you would certainly not have
suffered a knee injury, which by the way, how did you pay for it?
M: My responsibilities rests within my realm: my family. It isn’t my responsibility to pay for everyone else. No apologies.
K: Are we our brothers keepers?
M: Your instance, is the exception that proves the rule. Because Amerika is ruled by the corporate whores, there is no choice left but to have safeguards in place, so that people like yourself are protected against their avarice.
K: you rail against government “socialism” and yet demand
government intervention in protecting us from corporate whores
who are swindling us. The real problem is you think government
is horrible and yet you want the same government to protect
you when it convenient for you.
M: Am I responsible for the damage to my knees? Yes, I am. I love violent sports, I love to fight. I realise the consequences are damage, and possible death. I made the choices, I make the choices, and with my own money, pay for the consequences of those choices.
K: ahhh, answers to some of my questions.
But what happens when you can’t pay for it out of pocket.
what if you get cancer or have something more serious then
just a knee problem. And I am guessing you are young, wait
until you get to my age, and you have to start taking medicine.
It ain’t cheap. How would you pay for it? Are you ready to
go bankrupt to pay for your medical bills which is what you
are really advocating for, but what if it was you and it wasn’t
your choices that got you there?"
M: In the case that you have a no fault congenital defect, you’re right, I haven’t made a decision on that one. But I will say that in the same way that it is not your fault to be born with a defect, it’s not my fault either.
K: But one way or another, it must be paid for. and how?
If it is not my fault and not your fault, then no pays for it. right?
But I need a hearing aid to hear. I say its to your benefit that
I hear. If nothing else, so I can the sirens of police cars or
fire engines and not cause vehicles problems because I didn’t hear
the sirens.
M: The one exception that I make to the above statements is our elders. They deserve the respect of having served and survived, and clearing a path for the next generation. We have a societal responsibility to care for those who came before us, in the winter of their days. No one should have a problem with that, and f them if they do."
K: ah, so you favor socialise medicine for old people.
they certainly should suffer the consequences of their prior
actions and should suffer from their wrong choices, of
eating, drinking, and being a fat ass. You have a double
standard.
Kropotkin
