Was the snake in the Garden of Eden the devil in disguise? If so, why was the devil around before the first human had died and whose soul would either go to heaven or hell?
Did the feud between God and Lucifer occur within the first 7 days of the universe’s existence? Was there even a Hell before the 7th day?
Haha. Well played, Tortoise.
The problem, Alex, is that the Bible does not cover Christian mythology. That whole back story is, as far as the Bible goes, is taken to be true or self-evidently true, should you attend to it. Therefore, it doesn’t bother to explain the mythology which precedes the Scripture. Now we’re not talking mythology in the sense of automatically false. I mean mythology in the sense of stories being passed down through the ages. Of course, all mythology is chiefly metaphorical and didactic. Christian mythology should be treated as on par with Greek, Roman, and pagan mythologies. It is no more or less true. With that said, to seek the truth of Christian mythology, we might as well seek the truth of neighboring mythologies, as far as the truth can take us to better understanding these cultures and traditions.
The “serpent,” not necessarily a “snake,” was Lucifer. Lucifer is said to have been offended by God’s [decision] to create Man. Therefore, Lucifer revolted with a third of the Angels of Heaven, thus causing the War of Heaven. However, if we are to assume they actually did revolt and a war did transpire, we have to choose between two outcomes. Why must we do this? It is not reasonable to conclude that the War of the Heavens took place between the fifth and the sixth day; that is, that Lucifer and the angels revolted between the fifth and the seventh day. Lucifer’s tale comes in after creation is done anyway. The Bible does not mention it in the first, “general” creation account, and one would be hard-pressed to argue that the War of the Heavens was not noteworthy information on the book of our salvation. Are we to assume that the entirety of the war is represented or alluded to by the serpent’s/Lucifers action? I think not.
Either Lucifer and the angels were aware of God’s intention to create human beings, or they were not. If they were, then the war transpired long before the creation of man. Possibly even before the creation of the Universe, as the creation accounts leave the angels out. One wonders if the angels were created with heaven, or were they immaterial beings that existed in another, more transcendent realm with God. If they were not [aware], then God was surprised by Lucifer’s actions, thus unable to prevent them. This puts his omnipotence to question, of course. However, we are further forced to take the latter conclusion because God’s omniscience makes it so that no lesser being has access to his knowledge, intentions or will. We would have to assume that the angels were just as intelligence or maintained the same intellectual capacity as God in order for the whole of the war to transpire before the Eden narrative. The Bible does not and cannot answer these questions. It does not sufficiently explain the nature of God’s omnipotence or omniscience to give us details into this whole War of Heaven mythology. It just assumes that it’s true and that we should accept it.
This is chiefly why the Bible itself is an insufficient tool for salvation. It disassociates itself with the whole account of the Universe as far as the early Israelites understood it. It’s an inadequate text, even of its own mythology not to mention inadequate on scientific evidence for its validity.
If Christianity is not only based on what is written in the bible then what else is there to base it off of?
If the story of Lucifer’s decent into hell is in the bible then someone cite the book and verse and I’ll go read it. Personally I have never read nor heard of a biblical account of that whole ordeal, yet the story itself seems to be pretty widely accepted. Its kinda like “the trinity”; its not in the bible, yet most every Christian accepts it.
My main questions really are these: When was hell created? When did Lucifer descend into hell?
Did hell always exist? Cuz why would Lucifer tempt Eve if there was no hell for her to be sent?
Mythology stories don’t just exist in all time. They occur at certain times relative to other things. Everything that is written in the bible can be ordered chronologically (to a certain extent). I’m just curious about these two events.
Right. The writing of the stories occur at certain times, but that does not mean the authors have to had dates of the events that occur in the stories. You’re asking for information that is not available at present.
Look, let’s drop the general approach to “mythology.” We’re not talking about “Christian mythology” in a sweeping and general sense. We’re talking about the War of Heaven. The Bible doesn’t talk about it explicitly and only alludes to previous actions of Angels that may or may not have transpired then during the beginning of the War.
Obviously the Israelites of the Old Testament were not the first civilized peoples. Much of the mythology could be transferred from ancient Egyptian mythology or neighboring cultures. After all, Moses and Israelites did escape from the rule of the Pharaoh. It is reasonable to conclude from this that the Egyptians had their own religious and cultural background which derived from a preceding one and so on.
“When was hell created?”
This is a meaningless question. It cannot be answered.
“When did Lucifer descend into hell?”
Again, meaningless. More importantly is “why? how? what did he do?”
“Did hell always exist?”
Meaningless.
“Cuz why would Lucifer tempt Eve if there was no hell for her to be sent?”
Lucifer tempted Eve because he and a third of the Angels were offended by God’s decision to create Man. They felt their importance and glory was at stake in God’s eyes. They revolted, aiming to make their dominion over Heaven. They could not defeat God, so Lucifer set out to ruin his second creation. Obviously Angels have free will too, but we must conclude that God was unhappy with them for some reason. He may have simply been interested in creating all sorts of things, but other things having free will, or being in the “likeness” of God pisses Angels off.
My belief is that the snake whether it be symbolic or not was the essence of satan. According to the Old Testament, after satan’s disbarment from God’s presence, he and his followers were banished to the earth (probably in a symbolic sense again) for his arrogance. This would have to mean it happened sometime during the creation of the earth or after in a six day period (more than likely symbolic or mistranslation of the KJV OT). As far as there being a hell being within the confines of this earth…I wouldn’t know. It could reside in another plane of existence wherein a suppository of souls collect…I’m not sure.
DeSpinozist, you haven’t thoroughly demonstrated how my questions are meaningless. Obviously an exact date cannot be placed on the creation of such a thing as hell. However a general “before C but after A” kinda thing would suffice. Like “before Adam, but after god rested on the 7th day”.
“Has hell always existed?” is not a meaningless question. Just because you don’t have an answer does not make it meaningless. Its a perfectly legitimate question. Now if you wanna play the “hell doesn’t really exist” card, then you might as well back out of this conversation. I’m trying to figure out where on the time line (or at the very least a ball-park estimate) the creation of hell and/or the descent of Lucifer occurs.
My concern with the issue is that if it is not cited in the bible as to when (or even if) the event occurred, then why is the event’s tail repeatedly spread to the next generation.
Is there a book and verse that can be cited for ANY of these events you speak of? A simple allusion to the events? Anything? I ask this so that i may become more educated.
The Bible is anachronistic to the bone. Questions of dating in mythology are meaningless because they will give you meaningless real-world information. What difference does it make if Hell was created when Earth was created, 10,000 years prior or if it has always existed? How will this affect the understanding that Lucifer and a third of the Angels fell in the first place?
In any event, I did do this. I argued that the War of Heaven could not have taken place between the fifth and the seventh day because (a) Lucifer tempted Eve after the creation of Man. This means there was a history of the War of Heaven must have taken place before the creation of Man, not after. Also, (b) the Bible leaves out the War of Heaven in both the “general” and “detailed” creation account.
Either the Angels were aware of God’s intent to create man or they were not. If they were, then the War of Heaven took place before the Creation of Man and possibly before the Creation of Heaven and Earth. We must assume that the Angels existed before the Creation story because the story does not describe their creation. On the other hand, if they were not, then the War took place after his creation. But the Bible does not describe the War at all. So we have to conclude that they were aware of his intention to create Heaven and Earth (and humans) before the creation story. However, this means that God’s omniscience and omnipotence are put to test. Either he could not control the Angels completely or they had access to his intellect, possibly both.
So we conclude that the War of Heaven took place (a) before the creation accounts, and (b) before there was actually a Heaven. This conclusion mostly follows from the fact that the Bible does not describe the War or the creation of Angels at all.
So do you want to know when? If Hell has always existed? Answer first when God’s creation came about or when God created the Angels. There is no textual evidence for this information. You have to make assumptions and use logic to derive the timing of these events. But in fact, there is no creation of Hell in the Bible, so we must assume that it existed before the creation of Heaven and Earth. Or, as translation would have it, the sky/stars(/possibly the Universe) and the ground below. At this juncture, given our option of “before Heaven and Earth” or “always existing,” it is as meaningless a question as to ask, “When was God created?”
Because the Bible does refer to “punishment” and “fire.” So, in this sense, given that it was either created “before Heaven and Earth” [physical things] or “always existed,” then it either exists in a metaphorical sense or it exists somewhere outside of God’s knowledge. If the latter, then you go there not as a positive punishment asserted by God but as a negatively induced punishment for falling outside of God’s sphere of influence (that is, his wisdom, omniscience, etc). If in a metaphorical sense, God created Hell sometime before the Creation story or it has always existed and he’s aware of it. This way, he can administer the punishment. If exists outside of his knowledge [evidenced by the fact that it is not accounted for in the Bible], then this means Lucifer created it before Creation, and during the War, or after Creation (and after the War). Remember, if God is not aware of it, then someone else had to create it.
Maybe she was a good sort and Lucifer being Lucifer wanted to have his way with her. 
What’s an eternity in hell when you could have your way with a stunner such as Eve for a few hours? Hell was created at the same time as heaven. After all God needed somewhere to barbacue his steak. 
Making all the assumptions that you claim must be made doesn’t bode well for the so called “organized” religion such as Christianity. The point I’m trying to bring up is that the bible is flawed and self contradictory. Not that its hard to prove that point, I’m just bringing up another aspect that I haven’t heard discussed before.
There are numerous holes in the bible that people usually fill with assumptions, or blow it off with “God works in mysterious ways”. If all it takes is an assumption, then whats to stop the inevitable slippery slope of infinite assumptions?
Thats all well and good and it makes sense. However, WHAT are you basing your logic off of? Specifically. What parts of the bible are you logicaly stringing together to come to the assumptions (i would say conclusions but that doesn’t make much sense) you are making? I’m looking for some specific passages in the text that would lead one to think ANYTHING about what we’re talking about. Come on. Book and verse please.