The Socratic problem

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

There is a long-established Socrates problem…
and it comes down to this, what exactly did
Socrates believe in?

All, or most of our knowledge of Socrates philosophy comes
from Plato… But is Plato giving us the ideas of Socrates or is Plato
using Socrates as a mouthpiece for his own ideas?

One example we can use is the example of Pythagoras…
we know that, among other beliefs, that Pythagoras believed
in the ‘‘music’’ of the stars… and Pythagoras strongly believed
in the power of Mathematics… Which Plato also strongly
believed in but note what has been said about Socrates…
That he, Socrates, brought philosophy out of the stars and
back to Earth… it is hard for us to reconcile Pythagorean
belief in Math and the music of the stars and Socrates
insistent statement to the people of Athens to tend to their soul…
I suspect that Socrates wasn’t that interested in Pythagoras,
but Plato was interested… another example is the famous
Platonic idea of forms… I can’t see how Socrates with his
constant tending to the soul of the people, would be that
interested in the idea of forms… Eternal examples of the
square or a circle…

Now one of the things about Socrates is that every generation
works out what Socrates means to them… Socrates was
brought back into style with Hegel… and both Kierkegaard,
and Nietzsche wrote extensively about Socrates and the
Socratic problem…

It is 2025 and what does Socrates mean to this generation, to
this time? That becomes the question…

Kropotkin

2

The questions that Socrates brings to our attention is
many, but one of them is this question of ignorance
and knowledge… As is known, the big claim by Socrates
was that he ‘‘knew he didn’t know anything’’ and others were
confused because their own knowledge was founded in
error… they just didn’t know it… and it was ‘‘his job’’
to seek out the wisest person in Athens… otherwise
he was going to ‘‘examine’’ others to find out what
they did or didn’t know…the entire Socratic
idea was epistemologically driven… what knowledge
did people have and how do they know it is or isn’t true?

Epistemology: the theory of knowledge, especially with
regard to its methods, validity, and scope…

One of the questions Socrates grappled with, was Justice…
What is Justice and how do we know what being just
actually mean…

So, it seems that for Socrates anyway, knowledge is connected
to the state of one’s soul… recall his mission statement…
to improve one’s soul… for the betterment of the state, Athens…
that was the connection for him… to improve the soul to make
the state better… and at this point, I return to Pythagoras…
I am unable to connect Pythagoras music of the stars, with
being able to improve our soul for the betterment of the state…

so, let us work out Socrates for ourselves and our modern age…

how does seeking out the trinkets of existence, the pursuit of
money, fame, power, titles or material possessions, help us
improve our souls? Therein lies the entire Socratic message…
what does it take to improve our soul? Not seeking out any
empty promises of the trinkets of existence is a start…

but we are faced with a problem? What does it matter that
we do or don’t improve our soul? who gives a shit?
why bother improving our soul?
therein lies the next post

Kropotkin

3

To what end should we engage with?
that is one of the Kantian questions, ''What am I/we to do?"
what is the goal/point of existence?
is it to seek out ephemeral, ‘‘ad hoc’’ goals such
as wealth or power or titles? or should we engage
in something more ''substantial?"

Socrates laid out the goal which is the improvement of the soul
as being beneficial for both the individual and the state…
Now in seeking out the trinkets of existence, are we engaged
in something substantial? Not at all… wealth and power
and fame and material possession and titles are all ephemeral…
short lived… ‘‘ad hoc’’ of the moment…

whereas seeking out our soul improvement is a lifelong
practice… one that will last from the day we seek out our
soul’s improvement to the last day of existence, we can
practice improving our soul every single day of existence…
with the trinkets of existence, they come and go… repeately…

and in connection to the state/the society, wealth also
comes and go, there is nothing in our trinkets of existence
that is permanent…or lasting for a state or society…
but we, as human beings, are formed and instructed
by the state and society, we live in…
and as we have demonstrated, that the personal
vices we have, are not the path to a state/or society
benefit… capitalism is based on personal vices being,
in some unknown manner, the cause of public good…
but the path to the improvement of the state/society
is its individual members practicing private good,
not private vices… you want a state that practices
public good, you have to have its member’s practice
public good, not private vices…

thus one member of the state practices private vices such
as lying, stealing, cheating, theft, it damages the state, the
society… that is the ongoing danger of IQ45… is that
his lies and cheating damages the state… it is not possible
to create a better America if the citizens practice private vices…
the only path to ‘‘MAGA’’ is by every American practicing
private good, not private vices…
and the way we practice public good and private good,
is by understanding what damages, hurts the state/
society… and what improves the state/society is by
improving one’s soul… to practice private good instead
of private vices… or said another way, if one engages
in garbage in, that is all one will get, garbage out…
garbage in, garbage out… good stuff in, good stuff out…
private good will create public good… private vices only
creates public vices…

If we want to improve, truly improve America today, we must
begin with understanding ourselves, do we practice
private vices or private good?

Kropotkin

4

So, let us put some meat on these bones…
between Elon Musk and IQ45, they have
17 children between 6 women… and yet, they
have the gall to talk about ‘‘MAGA’’ … how do
they justify their actions with any talk about Morality
and America?

This is just another example of all talk, but no action…
you want a more ‘‘moral’’ America, let us begin with
those who want to rule over us… if they can’t be moral,
why should we be moral? Why can’t we engage
in private vices if our leaders do so?

and therein lies much of the problem with America…
we talk a good game, but we certainly don’t practice it…
the gap between our words and our actions is the size
of the Grand Canyon… so, explain to me, how does
Musk and IQ45 private vices help us improve and
''MAGA"?

Kropotkin

5

Your understanding of morality is so infantile it takes my breath away.
Are you sure your an atheist?

6

Now one of the questions facing us is this question of
Socrates own admitted ‘‘ignorance’’… at no point
does he say, ‘‘I am certain’’ to any question…
which leaves us thinking…

we can see how others, ‘‘MAGA’’ types hold to
being certain, ‘‘absolutely certain’’ that their ideas
of what is morality and ethics is right… and we have
the example of Socrates of not being so sure…

So, who is closer to finding the truth about morals/ethics?
I would say Socrates and those who live in doubt…
a ‘‘certain’’ person, one who thinks they know what is ethical
and moral, are not in possession of the truth…

To every single person who reasons out morality and ethics,
they discover that ethics/morals are not universally constructed…
there is no universal ethics or morals… if there is an ‘‘exception’’
it is not universal… a universal rule/law cannot have an ‘‘exception’’
to it… exceptions nullify any universal rules… and every single
rule of morals or ethics has an ‘‘exception’’ to it…thus it is not
universal…

So, what is the path to knowledge, to the truth?

It isn’t by being certain… certainty takes us away from knowing
the truth about morals and ethics…In other words, a man who is
‘‘certain’’ he holds the truth about morals/ethics is further away
from the truth than a person who doubts… because Socrates doubts,
he is closer to the truth than one who is ‘‘certain’’…
the path to wisdom lies in doubt, not in certainty…
as Socrates said…

Kropotkin

7

But what questions does a ‘‘Socrates’’ answer?

If we are busy pursuing the ‘‘Rat race’’ wealth, power,
titles, material possessions and fame, what of the other,
far more important matters? If we are busy looking outside
of us, looking outward, what of the questions of being human?
''Who am I?" ''What am I/we to do?" ''What can I/we believe in?"
''What can I/we know?"

Of course, the question of ''What can I/we believe in?" is a
question of, ''what values should I/we hold?"
If nothing else, philosophy is an investigation into the values
we once held, currently hold and should in the future, hold to…
Reduced to its basic form, philosophy is an investigation into
our values… Why these values and not another set of values?
and what is ethics/morals? It is an investigation into what values
we use in our daily interactions with others…

MAGA and conservatives push isms, like capitalism, and
religions/god, as values… but the failure here lies in the
isms use of people… isms use people, they are a means
to an end, not an end in themselves… capitalism is the
use of people, as a means to make money, the goal is not
people, but in making money… greed is the operating value
here… using people to make money…

So, the question becomes, why is this wrong? Why is it wrong
to use people to achieve one’s goals/trinkets of existence?
If I use someone to achieve my own goals, I devalue them,
I negate their value… it is nihilism… the negation of
people and their values…

And as a moralist, Socrates could never approve of using
others to achieve our own trinkets of existence…
and why? Because those trinkets of existence are
temporary, of the moment, ‘‘ad hoc’’…

The point of ethics/morals is to treat people as if they
have value… even if they have no other value than
being human… life itself has value… just being alive
is value enough…

When I see people mistreating others simply because they
are a minority or handicap or an illegal alien, that still
means they are alive, they are a human being and because
they are human/alive, they deserve respect, decency,
dignity and consideration… the conservative/MAGA
believes that only certain types of people deserve
to be treated with decency and respect…
those who hold similar beliefs, those with wealth or titles,
those who believe in the same values as the conservative…
those who are white or of a certain religion… they get
treated with decency and respect…

Liberals believe in more universal values than conservatives…
that everyone, no matter their race, creed, color, sexual orientation,
or how they dress, still deserves respect and be treated with
decency… That is the essence of ''WOKE"" which is why the
right, conservatives hate ‘‘WOKE’’… they want to legalize
their hatred of others who are different than they are…
to be ‘‘WOKE’’ is to universalize treating everyone
with decency and respect…

As for me, I argued for the use of ‘‘Justice’’ as the
universalize application of a value in respect to
our treatment of ethics/morals to other people…
and what is “Justice?” it is a universal application of
equality… equality before the law, equality before other
human beings, equality in the social, political, legal, economic
and philosophical treatment of other human beings…

I have argued against capitalism because it isn’t just,
or equal for everyone who works… vast wealth for some
and no wealth for others isn’t the application of justice…
which is equality…

the preferential treatment of some based on wealth or titles
or fame, is the denial of Justice…which is the application
of equality of all, regardless of their wealth or title…

The MAGA party wants to legalize, make preferential treatment
of some, the law of the land… Whites males get
preferential treatment, poor minorities get shit… and they
have legalized that inequality, that injustice into law…
when they ban cross-dressing, gay marriage, deporting
illegal aliens, banning abortions… each of these is
an act of injustice, inequality… for it treats some
differently than others…

Or said another way… if America is only for certain types
of people, it has legalized injustice, inequality… the only
path that is moral, ethical, is to treat everyone equally,
with justice…

So, the bottom line with conservatives and MAGA types, is
that they are practicing injustice, inequality… thus they
are being immoral, unethical…and defenders of
MAGA/conservatives are defending immoral, unethical
actions…

either justice is for everyone, or it is not being practiced at all…
it is immoral, unethical to favor some over the universal…

Kropotkin

8

for most people, our beliefs and actions are ‘‘ad hoc’’
of the moment, temporary… this explains why
people actions and beliefs are so chaotic,
unpredictable… they don’t have a core set of values or
beliefs that can guide them into actions that are
coherent and humane…

Most people belief system are a wildly divergent,
‘‘ad hoc’’ beliefs system… some, in fact I would say,
most people belief system are remains of their
their childhood indoctrinations… we use beliefs
that were indoctrinated into us as children…
while that is safe, it doesn’t get us ready for
adulthood… where we have to be adaptable
to our every changing enviroment…

My own beliefs at 5 or 25 or 35, have changed,
and in some respects, dramatically changed into
the values I hold today… Around age 18-25,
I engaged in a reevaluation of values… I found out
a good deal of the values I held were values indoctrinated
into me… It was a struggle, but I was able to adapt
and change my values to match the environment I found
myself in…

I am roughly 10 months from retiring… and at that point,
the values of work, will be replaced by something else
because I will no longer be working… those values which
make me a good worker, I no longer need… and thus,
those values must be replaced by new values which
represent where I will be after retiring…

we must be adaptable, which means we must be able
to adapt and change our values, beliefs to fit into
every new situation we find ourselves in…

Kropotkin

9

As with every generation over the last 200 years, we must
come to terms with Socrates… and what can he teach us…

Unlike most people today, Socrates didn’t claim to have
any answers to the problems of the day and why? Because
he claimed not to know anything… which is to say he didn’t
have any certainty or a fixed, set group of beliefs…

A great deal of the malaise today comes from our thinking that
we have the answers, there is no need to search for the truth
when we already have the truth in hand…
But those answers are really just ‘‘ad hoc’’ beliefs created by
and for the moment… and what indoctrinations we were forced
fed as children… to discover what really is, what is the truth,
we must overcome our ‘‘ad hoc’’ beliefs and childhood
indoctrinations… I hold this belief, why this belief and not another?
Why do I have this belief? Where did it come from? and if we
are honest, few are, but if we were honest, we would discover
that most of our beliefs are just indoctrinated beliefs from our
childhood…That the belief in god or the religion of choice
is really just another indoctrination…who has made an
reevaluation of values and put every single belief one has
under the fire… few if any…

an example is my 40 year search for god… I believe that
there was no god, but I didn’t just accept that…I wanted
the truth, one way or another… so I spent 40 years seeking out
god…and in my 40 years search, I never found any evidence
that there was a god…and if I ever give up my search for
the truth and desire a good fantasy that makes me feel good
about myself, I will certainly take up belief in a religion or god,
but I value the truth over contentment or certainty…

among the many indoctrinations we are taught, is
capitalism and the value of money… false trinkets
that bring us nothing of value into our lives…
as with fame, material possessions, titles and power…
childhood indoctrinations that we haven’t overcome…

and that returns us to Socrates… his two motto’s/sayings,
one: know thyself… two: the unexamined life isn’t worth living…
if we were to examine our lives, truly examine it… we would
see the emptiness of the promise of capitalism…
and see the emptiness of the trinkets of existence…
and because we don’t know ourselves, we think/believe
that the trinkets of existence actually fulfill a need within us,
(spoiler alert, it doesn’t)

by using Socrates as a guide, we can overcome our
childhood indoctrinations and learn to seek out the truth…
That we can live our lives in uncertainty…if we know
nothing, what certainties do we have?
if we know nothing,… and without certainties, how can
we think we are holders of the dogmatic truth?
There is a god, that capitalism is the greatest economic
system ever, that America is that shining city on the hill?
if we were to understand that we aren’t holders of the
absolute truth, then we must learn to change and adapt
to the truth… recall that we human beings are on
(as Nietzsche called it) a bridge, from being animals to
becoming human…

Modern life requires us to become stationary, fixed, set in
our values and beliefs… but the reality of life is that we
are ever changing in our values and beliefs, that to become
fixed in our values and beliefs is to negate what life is,
not fixed or set, but that life requires us to change,
adapt, move, evolve… and it all begins exactly
as it does with Socrates… with a working out
what exactly do we believe in and why those beliefs
and not another set of beliefs…

The value of Socrates for us in 2025 is that he is a
example of what we should be doing, that is examining
what it means to be human…

''What am I/we to do?" ''What should I/we believe in?"
''What can I/we know?"

Kropotkin

10

So, given what we know about Socrates, what is
his value to us? What does his legacy mean to us?

I think he is best used as a role model… let us
think about our modern age compared to his thought
process… We can think of Socrates as being a-political…
not interested in the political process… His main focus
was on our soul, our improving ourselves into better people…

Plato was a political thinker as was Aristotle, but not Socrates…
Aristotle for example, collected state constitution’s and studied
them… But at no point did Socrates express any interest in
this idea… Socrates explored large scale values such as Justice
and Eros/love, but he did not investigate, as Aristotle did,
the best type of constitution for any given state…

Socrates was interested in morals and ethics… and why
should we be a ‘‘moral’’ people, and not immoral or unethical…
the bottom line for Socrates was that being immoral harmed us,
as actors of unethical behavior, we are harmed by being unethical/
immoral more than the person we harm by being unethical…
and therein lies his reason for being ethical/moral… we harm
ourselves by being unethical/immoral… let us explore this
idea a bit more…

this idea of our unethical/immoral actions harm us comes from
the idea that we are our souls, not our bodies…
and the soul is closer to god then our bodies… this
is a very Christian idea… and why not, Catholicism
was a marriage between Greek Philosophy and the ancient
Church founders… the very idea that our final destination is
heaven where we sit and contemplate god forever, is a Greek
notion where the greatest life come from the contemplation of
existence and god…

This notion conflicts with our modern idea that action, doing
is more important than the study of theory… doing something
has greater value than understanding why you are doing something…
But Socrates was old school and believed in a moral, ethical
understanding of who we are and our actions… What
were his two sayings: know thyself and the unexamined
life isn’t worth living…

let us think about this in more practical terms…
The Ukraine… IQ45 is clearly pro-Russian and
wants Russia to conquer Ukraine, but why?
what reasons would he offer us in explanation
for his belief? IQ45 always, always come from
a very modern place of ‘‘How does this action benefit
or harm me’’… What’s in it for me… every single
action by IQ45 can be explained by the statement,
''What’s in it for me?" Not as a benefit for people or
countries, but individually, what can I gain from it?
That is the starting point and ending point of IQ45
thoughts and beliefs… who cares who lives or dies
as long as I benefit from it… as I said, a very modern
belief… and if all actions are judged from a personal
benefit/cost analysis, there is no regard to actions being
moral or immoral, it doesn’t matter… what matters is any
benefit I gain from it… that is modern in terms of
our failed belief in capitalism and private vices, in some
unexplained fashion, create a public good… and concern
only with what benefits I may personally gain from an
action is in line with private vices…not in any sort of
public good or private good… that becomes irrelevant
in a cost/benefit analysis of life actions… this private
vices mode of existence negates others in terms
of only focusing on ourselves and our gains and losses…

morals/ethics is not an engagement with our gains or losses,
but an engagement with others and what they gain or lose…
morals and ethics is the interactions between two or more
people…a zero sum situation is not an ethical or moral one…
there is but one winner in any game, that is not the point of
or the basis of ethics… to be ethical, moral there can,
must be more than one winner in every action…
there can only be one winner, and that winner must be me,
that is very much a modern attitude, or referred to as
‘‘private vices’’ but to have a society/state worth living
in, it must have a consideration for others… states/counties
that focus on having private vices never last very long,
countries/states that engage with the creation of
a public good from public vices, last much, much longer…
Rome for example, one of the highest ideals in Rome was
this idea of service to the state… Actions that benefited
the state were applauded and approved of… the private vices
of the Roman Republic almost destroyed Rome… in history,
Rome history can show us the destructive nature of the pursuit
of the trinkets of existence… seeking out power or wealth or
fame or material possessions almost destroyed Rome during
the last century before the rise of the Roman Republic and
the Emperors like Julius Caesar… as the pursuit of the
trinkets of existence is, right now, actively destroying America…

the pursuit of private vices destroys the public good…
it is as simple as that… and that returns us to Socrates…
it is by an examination of the two sayings, that we can
refocused on what is really important… that it is
by the use of private good which leads us to a public
good… we can remake America into the shiny city
on the hill once more, by an engagement with being
privately good which leads us to a public good…
acting with kindness, decency, respect, and dignity
to all, those ‘‘WOKE’’ terms are the only way we can
return to a public greatness… ethics, morals requires
us to treat people with the dignity and respect, thus
helping us bring about a public good… private vices
bring about public vices, private goods brings about
a public good… or as I was taught, garbage in, garbage
out… or to rephrase, good in, good out…

and we can return to Socrates… with his emphasis on
our souls and our being moral and ethical…
which will build a better, more ethical state/society…

Kropotkin

11

Let us review another moralist, Jesus,
Jesus’s concern was also moral, ethical…
but being Jewish, being ethical, moral required
one to be faithful to the laws, to obey the laws of god…
Jesus once said:

‘‘Do not think that I come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill’’

Jesus again and again, returns to our actions with others…
how do we treat others is a primary source of his ministry…

‘‘If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them
the other cheek also’’

It is not about our own personal gain, but about our actions
with others that is moral, ethical…in fact, Jesus quite clearly
says that we should give away our possessions to others
and live with each other in peace and harmony…
there is no ‘‘Zero Sum Game’’ at work in the words of Jesus…
if you help others, you are rewarded by god… helping others
is the ethical, moral thing to do, and in return we go to heaven,
but what if, what if we act for the betterment of others,
as private goods which leads us to a more public good,
good in, good out… we help create a more moral,
ethical society/state… and in return we benefit from
a more moral, ethical state/society…our reward is to
be treated with dignity and respect, as we treat others
with dignity and respect…

the failure of our belief in a ‘‘dog eat dog’’ world is that
we fail to see that by our mutual actions, our private good,
we can benefit ourselves in ways not possible, if we all act
with private vices…

The bottom line with human beings is that we are social creatures.
we exist best within tribes, groups, societies, and the state…
that is how we learn to be human beings… within these civic
structures is how we become human and how we learn to
overcome our own private vices…every man for himself,
a ‘‘Zero Sum Game’’ is not where our focus should or needs
to be… a ‘‘ZSG’’ (Zero sum game) or private vices
does not benefit our state or society…
we must remember that we are creatures of the
state/society… and that must remain in our actions
and thoughts at all times…all of our needs can only
be met through our intercourse with the state/society…
our bodily needs of food, water, education, health care,
shelter and love, can only be met through our
participation within the state/society…
as with our psychological needs of esteem, love,
safety/security, a sense of belonging… can only be met
within the confines of a state/society… you want to
become human, it is only through our participations within
the state/society, that can happen…

any actions taken must be taken within the confines
of the state/society result… How does this action
hurt or help the state/society? and therein lies another
value of our ‘‘garbage in, garbage out’’… if we put garbage
into the state, we get garbage out of the state…

Morality or ethics does not need to be religious or god based,
it can be based on our needs and our fulfillment of our needs…
and how best can we fulfill our needs? that is through the
state and society… so, how best can we improve the state,
so that it can better serve us in helping us gain our own
private needs? it is a feedback loop… one that is far more
beneficial to us than ''What is in it for me?"

Kropotkin

12

One of the places, one of several, where Plato
does us, and Socrates wrong, is in his commitment to
Geometry…which is math and science…Now, science
certainly, does have a place in our world and our day to day lives,
but to make Socrates endorse Geometry as a method of
governing or even to be a means to virtue…

Science has no means in which it can be a path to virtue or
discovering morals or ethics… How do I find ethics/morals
in scientific facts such as the earth is 93 million miles from the
sun, or the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second…
science can certainly inform us, but it can’t be a means
of finding out what is moral or ethical… hence the failure
of Plato to follow Socrates and his failure to us…

that we human beings are social, tribal beings can be
considered to be science, but it is also part of what
makes us human and an important part…

Science, economics, political theory, math,
philosophy, biology, are all part of the human
experience, but part of, not the whole thing of being
human… because of the nature of being human lies
in our relationships with other human beings,
which is part of the nature of those previously
mentioned disciplines, part of…

the truth is we are human because of the nature
of being human which is being social and tribal
and our connection to others… our relationships
is what makes us human… and that has little to do
with science or geometry or economics…

the heart of the human experience is our interactions
with others and the heart of that interactions is morals
and ethics… we can say that ethics, morals lay
at the heart of being human with no problem…
this explains Socrates interest in morals, ethics
and the human soul…

or to rephrase this, it is ethics, morals that make us
human, who we are, due to the fact that we
human because of the relationships we have with
others, known or unknown… if it damages the state/
the society, it damages us, because of our connection
to others, that we cannot become without others, the
city/state/the society…

the center of being human lies within our relationships
with others which requires us, no, demands us to
engage in morals and ethics… how do we treat others,
is the heart of being human…when IQ45 denigrates
others, it is nihilism, which is the denial/denigration of
human beings and their values… and therein lies
the tale of our current malaise, we have practice nihilism
long enough to turn the denial/denigration of others
into a set piece of politics… that is nihilism…

America first is nihilism… for it denies and negates
those who are not Americans… it is the practice
of private vices that doesn’t lead to any sort of public good…
with each country being an entity that must unite
in order to become better human beings…
think of countries as if they are individuals,
and does the act of private vices aid in us
become a better state/society, or does it
lead us to ‘‘garbage in, garbage out’’
on a very large scale…

Right now, we are engaged in nihilism on a very
large scale, politically, socially, economically,
and philosophically… we practice large scale
denial and negation of others as public policy,
and that has damaged us, perhaps even to the
point of our state/society collapse…

America first to what point? to the point of driving people
apart and we negate the one thing that makes us human,
truly human… which is the relationship with have with others…
socially, politically, economically and philosophically…
relationships that are social, within a collective context
is just as important as relationships with have with others
individually… we are one with the state/the society…

Kropotkin