The Tower of Babel

Hello All

There always seems so much debate and argument over what seems to be important and/or right and wrong that understanding becomes virtually impossible. People are often defensive as to their beliefs and critical of other beliefs. I’ve wondered about this in the context of the biblical tale of the Tower of Babel. From Genesis 11 KJV:

OK, so what happened? This is how I understand it. At one time man really understood. There was a common language or at least commonalities expressed even in diverse language. The journey is from the east and the east in the bible is the direction of wisdom and deep spiritual knowledge. Traveling from the east is in the direction away from the higher truths. Finding a plane is the place where their knowledge matched their loss of understanding. They wanted to have a city with a connection between heaven and earth. This is a psychological connection though it is represented by a tower.

Instead of using what was given to them from above, they began to use their own interpretations. Instead of the stone they used man made brick (interpretations), and slime which signifies something very low and unconscious for what holds it together. From the objective point of view, what is being created is an abomination since it is built upon man made interpretation rather then higher truth itself. What would be created would end up being injurious all the way around so higher influences created a gradual change in the collective consciousness of man and this change or diversity became common to man.

On the surface it appears insulting but from an objective point of view and knowing of the harm that can come to the psych by confusing higher knowledge with egotism, it seems sensible to me. Man may continue just moving in circles but the options are still open for individuals and at least a collective disaster is not created.

I wonder what this common language would be that would enable people to understand each other in the context of the psychological truths as they are capable of with the scientific truths?

You know it’s funny when you think about it…The real Tower of Babel (according to archealogists), wasn’t even that big - The Great Pyramid of Egypt was bigger, not to mention that abundant rain and bad architectural knowledge would have led to the self-destruction of this building.

The funny thing is…today, English is a common language just as much as Latin was in ancient times - being the bridge of understanding between different cultures. Not only do we have a common language to communicate with, but we also have buildings that “should” have incurred the wrath of the Hebrew God.

The Torah is mostly political…as the Bible is. There is enough evidence to conclude racial bias being one of the motives behind Jewish action towards non-Jews.

Hi Nick,
I think the ‘mingling’ or ‘confusion’ of languages could be seen as a blessing, not just as a punishment for wanting ‘to make themselves a name.’

Through the different languages we have different perspectives. Language reveals thought patterns and helps form patterns of thought. I think it is another appeal to use diversity, not singularity.

Shalom
Bob

Hi Sagesound

I’m not going to pretend to be any sort of expert on ancient Hebrew. I’ve read that as with many of the ancient languages that even the alphabet has distinct objective meanings reflecting the nature of the sound that produces the letter in question.

Again, I’m not a Cabbalist and don’t know Hebrew but I do love a good Jewish Deli and also the deep significance of the ancient Hebrew language.

To give you a taste of the depth of the language, not the Deli, :slight_smile: here is a excerpt found on this site. Jean Houston writes it simple enough that I can grasp the essence of it even though not a Hebrew scholar.

psyche.com/psyche/txt/powers_of_genesis.html

Sage, this is more than politics.

Hi Bob

Does objective growth from diversity really come from confusion? Take chess for example. My opponent knows the same laws of the game that I do. We start from the same premiss. However diversity arises when we see different possibilities from the extensions of these basic principles. Then we play the game and go over the game. We better ourselves and our understanding of chess because the diversity has been put into the perspective of a common presence which is the laws of the game and their basic value as seen in the lawful conclusion of the game assuming no accidental blunder.

However, without a common premiss, what good is confusion in the pursuit of higher understanding?

On my path I’ve read that a word has both a literal meaning and a meaning by “form”. This form is its emotional content. The word “sunset” can have a meaning of beauty for one having watched it on vacation over the sea or example. But another woman being raped at sunset would create another meaning by form. the emotional content is different between people.

People can argue for years saying the same words but reflecting different emotional meaning making any sort of understanding impossible.

This is why I believe that the universal language somehow consciously transcended this limitation which became lost. The attempt at reconstruction based on corrupt understanding may look appealing on the surface but from the objective perspective for its intended purpose, it must IMO be an abomination.

Hi Nick,

No, but it starts there. Complete harmony lacks the contrast by which the details can be seen; it is often wanton and aimless. It isn’t when people offer language that we feel understood, but when people can hold out the silence between us or when they just hold us in silence. Diversity presents a choice, new perspectives can arise out of confusion.

As Robert Frost said, “I’m not confused, I’m well mixed.”

Shalom
Bob

Hi Bob

I agree that it starts there but stops quickly from the inability to experience it. The result is rationalization and the defense of a new or strengthened preconception as the starting/stopping cycle proceeds.

There cannot be any complete harmony so details are always arising. The question is how to impartially experience them. I agree that the silence is a sign of acceptance but here another problem arises: what exactly is accepted?

I believe that as the people moved from the east they lost the understanding of their nothingness. It is precisely in this where we begin to understand each other. In the context of the wholeness of what is revealed through the Holy Spirit we are really nothing. From this perspective, there is nothing to defend.

The secular approach is to say "I’m OK and You’re OK. the esoteric approach is to say I’m an idiot and you’re an idiot.

Being “OK” no matter how altruistic the initial motive may will change as soon as someone touches a corn that implies that you’re not OK. Then all hell breaks loose and things are no longer OK.

However, from the experience of human perspective which reveals one as they are doesn’t require defense. The humility allows for the exchange of real sincerity and sharing of a much higher quality and the essence of the commonalities that can be expressed in language free of defensive attitudes and the need to impress our OKness.

Of course it would take years of inner work between people to acquire that degree of sincerity and could never include a majority but I believe it can and is being done. The common language that retains its sense of scale in relation to human “being” would flow from one presence to another revealing the truth beyond the words.

I don’t think you understood exactly what I was talking about, which has nothing to do with ancient Hebrew language.

Sage

Do you consider the Torah political in the depth of its language or because of interpretation?

Interpretation…as Nietzsche said, “there are no truths…” I’m not looking at what is written, I’m looking at WHO wrote it. It’s the same thing in the New Testament, the four gospels are well-written pieces of propaganda against Jews - aside from other things. It is a law of the universe that there is no such thing as an “unbiased opinion,” which makes court juries bullshit to begin with.

Hi Sagesound

Consider the enormity of our universe. There is a virtual infinity of galaxies all of which consist of a virtual infinity of suns with some maintaining solar systems. We exist on earth within one of these solar systems.

If a giant asteroid collided with the earth destroying it instantly, would the universe fall apart? No, it wouldn’t even be noticed. So without the earth and man’s “opinions”, are there truths, laws, that sustain the universe that continues existing after our demise? If so, is it not possible that some people could be more concerned with these truths than with Jews?

I think you’re misunderstanding the context of what I was saying.

Alas, there are such people - and those are such people which have opinions of that which you speak. I think you’re going way off track with this topic… Would you like to get back on the right rails or keep putting more coal in the fire until you run out of steel to roll your wheels on?

Hi Nick_A,

Interesting I suppose that many religions believe in Shinar and many non religious people don’t.

Hi Ockham’s Razor

Oh how true. It brings up that annoying word “humility” again. It is just so hard to admit this struggle inside ourselves and how dominating its influence is in forcing the dualistic responses of subjective right and wrong at the expense of uncderstanding our true nature.

If you consider all the religious attrocities that are a direct result of these “courage of convictions” stemming from just this inability to admit that we really don’t understand so preferring self justification instead, it would really be funny if it weren’t so tragic.

It just goes to show that in reality many claiming to be religious people are really not in the objective sense. What a mess.

Hi Nick,

Haven’t you ever wondered where the folks in the Babel story came from ? A couple of chapters prior there was Adam, Eve and Cain…Cain had done in Abel :confused:

I much prefer the Sumerian Creation Story myself, it talks about the sperm of god/s being used to fertilise the eggs of 14 women (7 and 7 wombs) who had survived the flood (catastrophe) and after a normal gestation period of 9 months, they gave birth to 7 boys and 7 girls. There were many other survivors, the gods just wanted to speed up the reproduction process apparently.

I have digressed from the topic. I don’t believe that ‘good’ and ‘evil’ exist as such, as beings in their own right (god/devil). Societies deem what is good and bad and it is up to the individual to make choices that will bring about the easiest life path for themselves. Someone wrote a book once called ‘The Game of Life and How to Play It’ and because life itself is governed by certain rules, that seems to make a lot of sense. If we were learning a board game or new sport out first course of action would be to learn the rules. I believe that cause and effect are the rules of life, as much as I may ridicule the bible at times there is some good stuff in there and the parables are one of them.

God has been used throughout history as an excuse for all kinds of hideous events.

I kinda got carried away here, lost the topic altogether and blethered a lot…sorry Nick :blush:

Ock.

Hi there Ock

And here I thought only my ex wife did that. :slight_smile: Nah, just kidding.

I’ve heard of the Sumerian creation story and it does seem reasonable. Once I began to see that there were different levels of consciousness, a lot of this became more sensible including the virgin birth.

I agree with you as far as good and evil. IMO objective good and evil doesn’t exist on earth and is an aspect of a quality of consciousness we do not possess.

I agree with you on parables. There is so much in them that is overlooked because it is not generally accepted that the Bible and especially the New Testament is a psychological work.

You say that cause and effect are the rules of life but have you ever considered that there may not be cause but just a series of effects?

I know it appears insulting but think for a moment, if man on earth is part of nature existing as does all organic life, what is cause? We are part of a reacting perpetual motion machine with imagined self importance. Shakespeare had it right IMO:

I believe it is precisely the lack of deeper meaning and feeling of emptiness insinuated here that leads people to search for something more. Unfortunately, there are so many “experts” standing in the way that it is easy to abandon the search from feeling out of place or get lost in la la land. Not too many real “black sheep” that can stand up to so much social pressure and personal fear.

Hi Nick,

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I expect that would be one of the top 3 reasons if I ever get divorced.

In the earliest Sumerian ethics, doing right was valued above obeying the dictates of any god or goddess. The first Atheists ?

The Sumerians were conquered by the Babylonians and the Hebrews (OT writers) were captives of the Babylonians. I expect they got to view their creation story on quite a few occasions and nicked bits of it. The word translated from Hebrew to get virgin actually meant young woman, I expect if a person wanted to make their god sound better than other gods a bit of mistranslation was acceptable. Just to drift aimlessly off topic again for a moment :blush: The Hebrew term usually translated as ‘day’ also means ‘a period of time’. Instead of saying that god created the world in 6 days, it could have meant that god created the world in 6 periods of time…which probably makes a little more sense.

Good and Evil are different in various societies, if there were one over-riding Good and Evil don’t you think that we would know it ?

Most of the parables had been told throughout history prior to JC and the NT. They varied a little but none the less I believe they hold a great deal of truth and wisdom.

This could be true. I’ve yet to come across an effect that hasn’t been caused by something, which of course, could be another effect :wink: Or life could be a serious causes. Perhaps actions and reactions might be better suited ?

When we travel to the country or some secluded place and ‘return’ to nature as they say, humans seem to find a great sense of being. Perhaps our stone cities, our sometimes menial jobs, our lack of sense of community are all players in this. We don’t grow our own food anymore, make our own clothes, prepare our own meals…a multitude of things spring to mind that make us feel disconnected from the ‘process’ of life. I think we search for more because we’re afraid of death. We’re afraid that this it and no-one can find a meaning for this existance, and I would be one of the people don’t fully understand what it might be all about.

Ock.

Hello Ock

Here we are babbling on. :slight_smile:

In all fairness this translation question regarding virgin is not so easy. I don’t know Hebrew so I bow out of this one. However the idea of a conscious conception from intention is a possibility that fits into my cosmological understanding.

wordofmessiah.org/virgin_birth.htm

Also this idea of day in regards creation is another subtle question. A period of time is a concept of linear time. But then there is objective time which is “repetition.” Day and night, as I understand it, refer to the forces of creation separating and coming together at the different qualitative levels of creation creating repetition. Day is a separation of these three forces while night is where they exist as one. The first “Day” is really conscious intent.

This is the whole idea of conscious “awakening”. Sleeping people are oblivious of objectivity. From that perspective, how could we know it? This knowledge is a product of awakening.

We’re in the same boat. How to feel meaning? How to become open to the experience of life on earth in the context of human potential? As sleeping people, we only imagine it. We’d rather argue about it from our perspective than lower our preconceptions so as to be open at the risk of vulnerability. The result IMO is continuing to build more and more towers of babel, beautiful on the outside but empty on the inside.

Ock, one more thing. I was thinking about the following and wanted to add something.

What really is the value of thought? It is true that the experience is the real thing but does thought have to result in missing the point?

It suggests this great question of our fixation with “results”. I found the following from Father Sylvan very helpful for this question of thought. I pass it on to take from it what you will. The real value is in the process of esoteric thinking inspired by thoughts in the form of results. So the task is to sacrifice the thoughts or results for the sake of opening oneself to esoteric thinking. It really is an extraordinary idea but I’ve come to see more just how valuable and difficult it is in practice.