The truth

[Mimisbrunnr]

@Uccisore

There’s a lot of that sort of sentiment going around the past couple years. I saw it in 2014- people woke up to the lies of the media, and thus the far left in general, as a result of GamerGate. I think the Trump thing was even bigger. It’s good that you don’t like the far-right either, though. You see a lot of people realize they’ve been lied to for years and they go WAYYYYYY too far in the other direction.

I’m not so certain. I mean I’m sure there are some wackos out there (and yes, people do tend to overcompensate), but I tend to think that when the illusion is shattered for otherwise reasonable, patriotic, ‘good’ people, they gain the ability to see through more than just what shattered the illusion unless they have another dog in the hunt or quandary that prevents them from it. Because it is all like a giant game of Jenga, they just keep pulling out the blocks and stacking them higher and higher, but once you pull a fundamental block, the rest tumbles at an alarming rate. The people that are pushing for the destruction of western society based on what is ‘good’, ‘bad’, or ‘extreme’, are the same people that are defining what is ‘good’, ‘bad’ and ‘extreme’.

Your point about the 1% baddies is EASILY able to be applied to more than just the group/ideology you believe to be a threat, and DAMN WELL SHOULD. Just because most people want to ignore the rest of the illusion and can’t bring themselves to go further down the rabbit hole because they are still heavily conditioned or can’t accept responsibility, or because their own genetics have been diluted, or because they can’t bear to go against family or friends, or are fearful of being labeled ‘ist’, ‘ite’ or ‘phobic’ doesn’t mean the rabbit hole doesn’t go further.

Have you ever caught yourself in a knee-jerk reaction that surprised even yourself, and when you tried to examine it you realized you really had no specific justification for such a reaction, or realized that justification was almost meaningless, or decided you just weren’t going to think about it anymore because ‘that’s just crazy’ or couldn’t imagine yourself agreeing with X?

What you may consider to be WAAAAAAAY too far, may be just the next stepping stone (or 2 or 3) that you haven’t been able to make or recognize yet. You must at least acknowledge this is a possibility, no?

We can’t just poke holes in the tower, we have to raze that sucker to the f***ing ground.

(Not meant as an attack on you Ucci, just exploring the point)

[Uccisore]

What you’re saying has a lot of truth to it. To be clear, I’m pretty far right myself. My point to Wyld wasn’t that the right is just as bad as the left, or that being a moderate is the way to be or anything like that. I just don’t want people to ‘be on my team’ merely because they were catapaulted there through an emotional overreaction to the other side.

[Mimisbrunnr]

@Uccisore

What you’re saying has a lot of truth to it. To be clear, I’m pretty far right myself. My point to Wyld wasn’t that the right is just as bad as the left, or that being a moderate is the way to be or anything like that. I just don’t want people to ‘be on my team’ merely because they were catapaulted there through an emotional overreaction to the other side.

Gotcha. Fair point and I agree.

[Amorphos]

…happy new year

Uccisore

Right. Before all this ISIS shit was…before all this ISIS shit. I’m sure there will be some time in the future where the situation has changed enough that it makes sense to allow Pakistanis into western nations once more.

Yes but if less than 1% of them [think of themselves as] are our enemies, then you are disallowing free movement for 99% who aren’t guilty of anything. Is the world going to become more, much more, or less mobile in the near future? Forced/economic migration aside, there has to be the provision for free movements of free people, no? Don’t we expect it? I could go out tomorrow and move anywhere in the free world, start a business or whathaveyou, and no problems. So how can we reasonable say that others cannot, why the opeupmanship?

That’s a good question, but it’s not as though we are absolutely required to allow 10,000 Arabs into our country and thus forced to make due with imperfect methods to identify them. If there is no way to choose the bad ones from the good ones, then you obviously don’t let in anybody.

You could have digital and actual ID cards or permits which they pay for ~ more sophisticated ones. Peoples ID’s can be corroborated if enough data is presented, like if you were going to open a bank account or something. Those who don’t give it, don’t get in, simple. Secondly and more to the point, how do you tell? I mean, if they pose as non-Muslims - like a terrorist easily could, and as professionals [e.g. Doctors], ID is going to be an issue regardless of what ‘measures’ you would have to take to enforce it. Thirdly, once you start taking draconian measures to achieve an end, it tends to go badly.

Surely it is better to get better profiles on people who enter a given nation.

Would create an underclass of course - those without profiles, refugees etc.

Maybe in a socialist fantasy where everybody is awakened to the fact that the only thing they should care about is their economic class, and poor people are automatically full of rage against people more wealthy than them.

Yes but its not a fantasy to them it is their reality, and if you were in that same situation and had their limits and issues etc, then you would act the same. Solution is to do what it takes to take people out of poverty, then they can have their museum sized collections of classic cars free of guilt. Neither does it have to be done via socialism, the Roman rich built everything! Clearly there was a conscious sense of how things are, 1,000,000 spread between 1,000,000, of anything just gives every the sum total of 1, and the obvious converse of that. You cant say there isn’t enough money in rich countries to house a few thousand homeless people, there is instead an agenda to force people to own their own homes or else.

Well, obviously the problem in that scenario would be the liberal policy that thought it was a good idea to bring in boatloads of Hondurans the job market couldn’t support in the first place.

No, it is the capitalists who do that so they have cheap labour and bring the costs of existing labour down respectively!!! its all about retail vs wholesale as you know, so the more you can depress the wholesale markets, the greater the profit for the retailer. Big business is that, and this is why I question how Trump can really be for the people. Though I don’t know how he treats his own building workers directly, but anyone involved in all the things he is, is going to be connected to something which is using cheap labour and derivatives.

About what? It remains the fact that the GOP, the DNC, Wall Street, Hollywood and the media all had naked contempt for Trump, and so it remains the case that calling him part of the political establishment is fucking dumb.

Establishment and not ‘political establishment’! see above.

.

[Uccisore]

@Amorphos

Yes but if less than 1% of them [think of themselves as] are our enemies, then you are disallowing free movement for 99% who aren’t guilty of anything.

Yes, that’s right. Just like any other country with an ounce of common sense. They don’t have a right to cross borders. Immigration is something the host country does because it benefits the host country. Treating other people immigrating to your country like some fundamental right that you need a special reason to deny is incorrect and fucking stupid.

there has to be the provision for free movements of free people, no?

No.

Don’t we expect it? I could go out tomorrow and move anywhere in the free world, start a business or whathaveyou, and no problems.

Highly doubtful.

Maybe YOU can, if YOU happen to be from a country that actually keeps track of who the fuck you are, your medical history, your criminal history,and is willing to give that data to whatever other country you want to move to. AND if on top of all of that you happen to have a degree/work experience in a highly desirable field like medicine or rocket science or whatever. If you are so priviledged, you should be thanking your host country for giving you that opportunity. But for the rest of us, immigration access is denied all the time, even in the free world. If you were from some shithole nation where you were free to run around committing crime with no accountability and nobody is keeping track of who you are and what diseases you may have, then obviously nobody wants you to cross their border. Even if you are certified clean and sane, nobody wants you to cross their border if your only career experience is cashing a welfare check and making babies.

So, 1.) You’re wrong, there’s plenty of free countries that wouldn’t let you in unless you’re a nobel prize winner or a millionaire, and 2.), even if you’re not wrong, there’s a difference between you moving somewhere and an unknown entity from a third world shithole moving somewhere.
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You could have digital and actual ID cards or permits which they pay for ~ more sophisticated ones.

Sure you could! But we fucking don’t. Syrian refugees don’t have high tech digital ID cards. What they have is a piece of paper with “Omar” written on it in sharpie. If, in the future, third world shithole countries start including digital ID cards with their refugees, we may be able to revisit the question of letting them into our countries.

Peoples ID’s can be corroborated if enough data is presented, like if you were going to open a bank account or something. Those who don’t give it, don’t get in, simple.

Great. So then since none of these people have anything like that, we are in agreement that they shouldn’t get in.

[/quote]
Secondly and more to the point, how do you tell? I mean, if they pose as non-Muslims - like a terrorist easily could, and as professionals [e.g. Doctors], ID is going to be an issue regardless of what ‘measures’ you would have to take to enforce it.
[/quote]
If you can’t tell, you don’t let them in.

Yes but its not a fantasy to them it is their reality, and if you were in that same situation and had their limits and issues etc, then you would act the same.

The same as what? The made up hypothetical of how you imagine poor people act? Again, that’s just your fantasy. Poor immigrants often love their host countries. The idea that first have to import tens of thousands of hungry mouths because lefties said so, and THEN we have to implement socialism to feed the tens of thousands of hungry mouths the lefties said we had to import is just compounding stupidity on stupidity.

Solution is to do what it takes to take people out of poverty,

No, the solution is to not import poverty.

No, it is the capitalists who do that so they have cheap labour and bring the costs of existing labour down respectively!!!

Really? You’ve been in this thread telling me for days how super important it is that we take in tens of thousands of destitute refugees, and now you want to tell me it’s the dirty capitalists that want them here? No, it’s YOU, because YOU are the one advocating for it. Right now. In this conversation. Why are you trying to blame your own position on somebody else?

[Amorphos]

Uccisore

AND if on top of all of that you happen to have a degree/work experience in a highly desirable field like medicine or rocket science or whatever.

Well there’s the crux of the matter, how many Muslims do we have in medicine and NHS generally! Once you got the credentials or wealth, you get in, period. That doesn’t require a ‘Nobel prize’ so much as anything that says you or your parents have done a bit of collage.

Great. So then since none of these people have anything like that, we are in agreement that they shouldn’t get in.

Not really. I don’t think it takes much to get around the rules. Parents could get in and then their kids get radicalised, we already have millions of such people. That IS what’s happening.

If you can’t tell, you don’t let them in.

YOU CAN’T TELL! You can’t know what people’s kids are going to be like, once the parents have got in. not to mention that you can’t truly know anyone’s motives.

No, the solution is to not import poverty.

So you advocate not letting cheap labour into the country? Something most businesses wont want, and part of how capitalism has worked since forever [us as cheap labour then foreigners.

You’ve been in this thread telling me for days how super important it is that we take in tens of thousands of destitute refugees,

I haven’t. I am saying that we need to be selective, and that I am against [forced] mass migration. I do believe in the freedom of movement as an ideal, but I think in the past it’s been done mainly with financial benefits in mind - cheap labour.

and now you want to tell me it’s the dirty capitalists that want them here? No, it’s YOU, because YOU are the one advocating for it. Right now. In this conversation. Why are you trying to blame your own position on somebody else?

Nope, liberals want freedom of movement, and capitalists want cheap labour. So they have both been letting mass immigration happen for one reason or another. Come off it, you have read history and know how cheap labour has been used over the years. During the boom many people I spoke to in the construction industry, complained that cheap polish labour was keeping their prices down. At the same time the bosses were complaining that labour was too expensive.

In truth both parties are guilty for mass immigration, the only difference is the reasons!

_

[URUZ]

Yes, the GOP wants to allow in Mexicans to use them as cheap labor to enrich the coffers of their corporate doners’ companies, and the DFL wants to allow in Mexicans to use them as reliable vote cows and to expand the range and power of the government through an increasing burden upon and need for social welfare systems.

[Uccisore]

@Amorphos

Well there’s the crux of the matter, how many Muslims do we have in medicine and NHS generally! Once you got the credentials or wealth, you get in, period.

Well no shit. If you have credentials, it means we can verify that you aren’t part of ISIS and don’t have tuberculosis or whatever. If you have wealth, nations will want you to come spend it/invest it in their country. What’s hard to understand about that?

Not really. I don’t think it takes much to get around the rules. Parents could get in and then their kids get radicalised, we already have millions of such people. That IS what’s happening.

So if it doesn’t take much to get around these ID cards, why did you propose them? If the ID cards aren’t good enough for you to be confident in who someone is, that’s just another reason not to let them in.

YOU CAN’T TELL!

Then you don’t let them in.

So you advocate not letting cheap labour into the country?

I advocate not letting people we can’t identify in, because you need to know somebody’s health, criminal record, skills, and affiliations at a bare minimum to decide if they’re eligible. Here you are again referring to immigrants as cheap labor, which is like the third time you’ve brought it up, and in a second you’re going to tell me you aren’t advocating bringing immigrants in for cheap labor.

If a labor pool carries with it a significant risk of being ISIS agents or somesuch, that labor pool is not ‘cheap’.

[u]Nope, liberals want freedom of movement, and capitalists want cheap labour.

Ah, I see. You both want to flood wealthy white countries with tens of thousands of identifiable immigrants from countries that hate our guts, but those dirty capitalists want to do it for the wrong reasons and that makes all the difference.

No. You don’t get to spend days arguing for mass immigration then blame it on the opposite ideology. Anybody can read this thread and see you whining about how important cheap labor is.

[/u]So they have both

You have both. Not they. YOU. You’re advocating mass immigration. You’re the guilty party here. You don’t get to preach to me about the freedom of movement out of one corner of your mouth then bitch about capitalists wanting the same goddamned thing out of the other side of your mouth and not expect to be called on it.

In truth both parties are guilty for mass immigration, the only difference is the reasons!

Brexit isn’t in favor of mass immigration, neither is Trump. That’s what you created this thread to talk about. Which party are they? Neither?

[Amorphos]

Uccisore

Well no shit. If you have credentials, it means we can verify that you aren’t part of ISIS and don’t have tuberculosis or whatever. If you have wealth, nations will want you to come spend it/invest it in their country. What’s hard to understand about that?

Yea because that’s working! People who’s parents got in with credentials or have them themselves, aren’t committing all the crimes, no?

The id’s need to be more rigorous, and that’s as much as one can do. Well aside from not letting any of them in, but that wont happen because the NHS has people all over the world recruiting labour. The capitalists will find cheap wholesale/labour, and the liberals will want a percentage of movement, either way the whole thing works against our workers, and for those exploiting it.

• no I wont be advocating letting cheap labour in, most definitely not! I am all for wholesale prices taking a bigger percentage so people get paid fairly. there are a lot of issues in the world which could be sorted out if the few weren’t so selfish! those issues are part of what makes people hate the west.

Ah, I see. You both want to flood wealthy white countries with tens of thousands of identifiable immigrants from countries that hate our guts, but those dirty capitalists want to do it for the wrong reasons and that makes all the difference.

The difference is that cheap labour is going to be less worthy in the security department. E.g. middle class people tend to have better ID’s than poor people and refugees. That is the capitalist who want that, and that isn’t the same as freedom of movement for us and others.

No. You don’t get to spend days arguing for mass immigration then blame it on the opposite ideology. Anybody can read this thread and see you whining about how important cheap labor is.

I don’t get how anyone would come to that conclusion, when I’ve constantly repeated that I hate that - and in the op too. I used to work in construction, why would I want cheap labour? I was complaining about it in 2004 during the boom, long before brexit and what have you. freedom of movement doesn’t equal mass migration unless someone takes off all the checks and balances.

I am only advocating free movement, and clearly stated I am against FORCED movement I.e. economic movement like the EU was/is doing. My main complaint is that all parties are against freedom, and you are putting the words into my mouth, after I have stated that clearly a number of times.

Brexit isn’t in favor of mass immigration, neither is Trump. That’s what you created this thread to talk about. Which party are they? Neither?

Good point at last. Trump like any of the top 1%, will want cheap labour, especially if he stops it and then his business pals say they are having to pay too much for labour and skills. Brexit - as I stated in the op, is a load of bullshit for the same reasons, the top people here HAVE and will find ways to manifest cheap labour even if that means us. Not unlike they have been doing for ages. Remember how I said about all that in the op?

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