I find this very interesting even though I am at once a critic and believer.
1. Is chi something other than consciousness or mind?
2. Is consciousness/mind substantial ~ is it a substance?
My contention is that I have only ever experienced mind as something physically passive ~ it doesn’t move stuff around except by getting the physical apparatus of mind/body to do it for it. I am not sure if we’d need bodies if consciousness could ‘do’ anything other than perceive and communicate.
It is the idea of consciousness as non physical by which all my spiritual philosophies derive! I wouldn’t want it to be substantial, that takes away its beauty gives it aggregate and makes it mundane.
…though I am happy to be proven wrong, if mind can move physical objects?
This is my theory regarding Chi, since there isn’t any fact on the subject to really offer much.
First, I have to assume that there is something actually taking place that is tangible and real in Chi as it has been in existence for a considerable length of time and by several names.
For instance:
I’m not condoning their conclusions, I didn’t even bother reading them.
I only wanted to show that it is known that this concept exists widely in the human population anthropologically.
Because it has existed so prevalently, then there must be a sense that is being received which provokes individuals to be compelled so widely and for such a great length of time to outline the conceptual models of this forces manipulation.
So when I look at it from this angle, then I have to wonder what our basic building blocks give us that is similar.
Starting small…
The human hair.
When it’s hot and you need to cool down, your follicle muscles at the root of each hair reduce tension.
Your hair then loses rigidity due to it’s softened root.
Your sweat glands produce so to accomplish cooling insulation.
Your blood vessels expand in diameter so to increase the radiant area of your bloods heat dissipation through your skin.
When it’s cold out, the opposite more or less takes place.
This occurrence has a sensation to it; “goose bumps” is one common slang term for it.
When your hairs move, you can feel that as a relatively strong sensation throughout the body.
This occurs for many reasons, not simply just heat.
Our hair, for instance, will be the first to sense that an electric field is near us.
It is also common for the hair on a human body to raise when anger, suspicion, or fear are present.
If you close your eyes and put your arm over the top of another person’s arm with your arms only fractionally apart from their hairs; there is a really good chance that you will have a sensational input that suggests to you that you are feeling something with your arm as readily as if it were capable of touching you physically.
Now, if I take that and understand that it has connection to our neurology, and then take into account the difference of brain activity neurologically observed in deep monastic meditations so far examined (socialbehavior.uzh.ch/teachi … 08_ext.pdf) in regards to the cyclic rate of our gamma, beta, alpha, theta, and delta brain waves and the concentrated augmentation of these in manipulative relationship to our biological sensation and action.
Meaning, I can see the fundamental components in our body to permit a sensation which matches that of Chi, and I can even see the possibility of expanding and retracting a sensory field of some caliber.
Aggressive telekinetic affect of this possible production, however?
I can’t just jump to saying I see that.
And really, I shouldn’t have to believe in telekinetic forces of energy from our body.
That is something that can easily be tested in a great multitude of labs; it is not as if we are discussing how many labs can test the Higgs Boson theory.
I would really, really be interested in neuroscience pushing into this area of human achievement claims.
If there is validity in this kind of action actually happening, then we would be the better for identifying how it works in Neurological function.
i think the problem with believing in magic, is that magic is typically what we don’t understand, so if we feel we understand how something works we typically don’t call it magic…I would think that we really don’t completely understand anything, so practically everything is magic…(based on that definition i guess)
I might call it Pavlovian Conditioning… or one could simply say conditioning, or specifically mental conditioning…
Some psychology things I have read have called these things “tags”… in that we tag a thing to them… we associate some thing with that thing be it a feeling or what…
Jayson i would also think of it like this…certain symbols can be more useful for working with certain things, or rather certain systems of symbols, or sigils, or tags, can be useful…math is a great example…
we might then have that certain ancientreligions though carrying certain ideas had tags or symbols or ways of thinking that allowed for behavior that depsite lack of the oforms of thinking we have now may have allowed better “allignment” with reality, or rather better functioning…
Well, here the word is used in reference to the spiritual belief of magic; such as in Wicca or the like (as an easy pick).
It is exactly this.
Yes.
Personally, I call them emblems, but they are often referred to as “tags”.
Quite so is indeed possible.
For instance, as we see here, it should be no surprise to see someone remark about how the “chaos magic’s” “sigil” really worked to manifest their desires.
We just have the ability today to look at what is taking place functionally in our bodies in ways that weren’t available previously, and that means that we can start to understand why some of these old ways really do work without really stretching to break any understandings of scientific understanding.
I read some stuff once of how someone could do such as say whenever a person is happy pat them on the shoulder, and then when they are sad after the tag has been established pat them on the shoulder…Such might be effective for “healing” but then many try to use it as a means of manipulations, for example it mentioned other things like holding stances similar to that of the other, and certain things that end up making the other more comfortable around you, which can be good for discussion, but then again it can be misused, the irony is that marketers do the same thing, and yet don’t seem to consider some of the social ramifications of it…commercials function as tagings, and if performed over generations can lead to the development of tags that might then be used to over manipulate people…I fear this (likewise one could literally condition a population to respond as such to the waving hand Jedi mind trick) fortunately though these things end up being devalued over time if they are used in association to things that people don’t benefit from…thank God…though there remains the poroblem unseen of many manipulators that such results in a “crash” or in other words a rebound that effectively trends to the destruction of the manipulators if not the disempowermentdi, and overall displeasureing…
And ultimately what this shows me is that many of the ‘systems’ vary in functionality according to the individual, thus allowance for variation in the system allows for better inclusion so as to arrive at more “righteous” people. Thus perhaps there needs to be a macro-system that hold these systems unifically (in peacefull togetherness) so as to allow them to functionally provide for all individuals, as is best. Of course i still am one to think that God is a part of reality that is important to seeing the whole puzzle…but then one does not need to see the whole puzzle regardless to be a “righteous” person. If that were the case, that we need see the whole puzzle, then we would all be going to hell (if hell exists)…(one might call it the opposite of nirvana wherein a person gets into a state of reciprocating self conditioning that lends to worsening of the self or “soul”) I see you as seeing this and i think that we need to be sure to stay in contact because we may have the capacity to aid the unity, or one might call, the peace… i think one of the keys may be opening peoples mind s to the nature of conditioning, but also being capable of stepping into others linguistic definitional …meta-narrative…
For sure it would seam there is something there, ‘an energy’, but I have a problem with that term. An energy would be measurable [at least against other energies] unless ineffectual, also the ancients may have assumed there to be an energy where they didn’t understand science. The Egyptians apparently had battery like things ~ not sure if I believe that, but much of em noticeable in the world may have been ascribed mystic powers. My missus always gets static electric shocks of anything metal, the ancients would observe such things and assume there to be an energy.
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Indeed, It would be easy to assume that mental powers equate as actual powers.
[thanks for the links]
As something purely neurological perhaps they need to approach it differently, lab conditions are exactly that; ‘conditions’.
Secondly deconstruction tend to remove us from the original things, and I often wonder if we loose the original meaning e.g. why is a holistic object any less real that a quantum one, and why is colour less real than photonic light etc.
Love is capable of being an addiction, so yes. (some argue that love is an addiction)
You can affect the well being of a person by nothing more than touch.
And this is because you can increase oxytocin in the body by providing affection.
So, essentially, you could counteract anxiety during pain with love and affection.
You won’t heal their affliction, but you can make them more comfortable, and the more comfortable a person is, the easier time their body will have trying to heal.
And yes, you could use this affection modulation negatively by granting affection and tags for learned behavior of trust and then taking them away from the individual when you wish to manipulate their behavior; society calls it psychological abuse.
I call it neurological abuse.
What, like this?
We already use Jedi Mind tricks using our hands.
Yes.
And that is a very important key.
In working on creating such modules, you have to keep in mind that subjectivity needs to remain the principle facilitator to the modularity of the given modules.
You can’t properly produce communicated transitive experience by using finite definitions.
By the very nature of its function these systems must remain interpretative.
More or less, something of that kind.
(and yeah, the ruling on the Baghdad Battery is quite unfinished and problematic.)
Well, we can change our physical form using only our mind.
See the quite impressive study by Erin M. Shackell and Lionel G. Standing at Bishop’s University to see how they found that mental training can cause muscle growth without any external physical training (weight lifting). westallen.typepad.com/brains_on_ … ell_07.pdf
A “lab” can be slid to many methods.
It doesn’t have to be a sterile white coat room.
Some labs, for instance, exist out on the open ocean, or right next to a lava lake.
Hell, we put a “lab” in the Tibetan monastery; I’m pretty sure we can accommodate Chi punching if someone would come forward for it.
The only one that has wasn’t from China, and the results were left with explained because no individuals unrelated to the practitioner were affected by his Chi power, and for those that were affected, the only noticeable occurrence was a drop in blood pressure.
Kind of sucks that the investigation of this stuff has pretty much died back before we had most of our modern tools that are better than what we had in the 60’s and 70’s.
Sex I think is a negative addiction, everything is addictive but if it is good then it is good to be addicted to it, for example it would literally be good to be addicted to being a good person, Love is addictive, but that is a good thing. People over associate sex with love and then the sex becomes addicted to as well, and that causes problems, for when the sex interest is lost then the association to love is lost…
Though there are limits I would htink as to much comforting can prevent the feeling of need of healing…
I don’t know that everyone grasps how deep things are conditionally relevant, specifically genetic tendencies.
I hadn’t thought of that, the solute…except it hasn’t been conditioned so cleanly fortunately…
or one can to an extent use multiple finite definitions…in repeating the same idea…
I watched a crime documentary last night.
The arresting detective stated many times with spite and disgust that the kid of 16 that had murdered a man by shooting him in the back was the most cold and vacantly inhumane person that he had ever arrested in his entire carrier.
He said these remarks in a wide range of manners and each with an attitude and inflection that communicated that he thought the kid was sick, evil, and needed to be put away for his evil forever and ever.
Yes, his wording was “evil”.
What was frustrating to me was that this detective seems to have skipped the latter stage of the 20th century where we learned how sociopath neurology differs radically from nominal neurology.
I liken it to an officer arresting someone with down syndrome and then talking about what a “retard” the person was and that they couldn’t believe just how downright stupid the person was.
If a person hasn’t any empathetic reaction or emotional personality within the nominal ranges, then they aren’t “evil”; they are neurologically malformed from the nominal brain and you should be bringing the situation up to medical authorities to open an investigation into possible sociopathy.
You shouldn’t be laughing about it on national TV and calling them “evil”.
No?
So if I Nazi solute at an American inauguration, there won’t be a fairly clean and conditioned response?
Such be speaks of the similar unconscious self conditioning performed by Nazism in the creation of their own propaganda…Such is only lending to people thinking it is normal to presume such and it is horrible, i wounder who writes these screen plays…what happened to intellectual theater?
that response would be more conscious and subject to more easy conscious resistance, though it is still a conditioning, I would fear it more if people simply started feeling hate or something uncontrollably…but yes it is still rather sad that despite its lack of severe conditioning people still succumb to such…yet much of that has to do with people not understanding psychology…yet again perhaps one can say that those people are uncontrollably being manipulated…IDK
Regarding the TV show, that was a documentary so that detective actually felt that way.
Regarding the salute.
You would be amazed at the affect of will.
We don’t consciously notice so much of what is presented to us, even when it comes from our own self.
Go to work, for instance, and truly wish actively all day for everyone to be angry or frustrated by focusing on feeling frustration yourself; fully and passively.
Be the undercurrent of frustration and then observe those around you throughout the day.
I assume prior to reading it, that certain kinds of mental stimulation can make a similar effect on the hormones which stimulate muscle growth. This area is very interesting but I’m sure you’ll agree a million miles away from proving chi based powers. In fact for me it does the opposite, mental signals rather than chi ~ and essentially what the primitive mind thought of as chi is some vague holistic perception of what’s going on.
I agree it needs more study especially if consciousness can be shown to be other than em I.e. if science starts being honest about such things, or at least more open.
Oh…well still there seem to be many such shows that are not documentary…
I have noted that, i would imagine it has to do with the subconscious picking up on potential threats. (wherein true falsification has a tendency to be picked up as well…of course less obviously, though perhaps more easily by those who give more attention to the subconscious(as I call it), or intuition as you call it.)
Well what I would think is interesting is that every perception is a vaugry in comparison to understanding of the whole, it would seem…so know our understandings as compared to those of the future will be seen as like mysticism as well. The interesting part is that people saw the truth by means of such odd mental algorithms…perhaps that is the only mystical part though i imagine there is explanation for such, i still would not use such to rule out other so called mystical things, rather I might suspect that some mystical things are more real then we thought…even God maybe (even a sentient God)
More or less.
Basically, do 20 push ups, then do 20 push ups in your mind vividly while simulating the motion to help the visualization and you’ll produce more muscle slightly than if you had simply done more actual push ups.
Oh, I don’t think it directly correlates anything about Chi.
I haven’t any true stance on what’s going on with Chi perception.
I can only agree that something is taking place.
What that something is…no solid leads really.
And unfortunately, there’s no solid leads because the typical stance of Chi believers in the west is to belittle or dismiss anyone that doubts it so there is a sense of hostility that isn’t helpful.
As to wtf China? Where are you in this? shrug
Good question.
Consciousness is WAY more than EM.
Hell, it’s not at all EM.
No more than RPM’s in a car are the “Traveling”.
People write what they assume is the mass consumption ability.
You can get a sense of how smart or stupid our society thinks itself to be by just looking at what it writes for its own entertainment.
My assessment is that we think we are learned idiots that are gullible skeptics.
We use science sounding blips all over to explain the dumbest shit to buy into (figuratively and literally).
It is extremely common for us to take the smallest tinge of scientific finding and stretch it to ludicrous conclusions; even in melodrama’s.
On the flipside, some cool stuff comes from this.
For instance, the Sorcerer’s Apprentice uses scientific concepts to excuse magic, Fringe…good lord…I haven’t seen a story more appeal to quantum string theory.
Two little examples of how this same tangent of current vogue is sometimes cool.
On the other hand, it also means you have to put up with things like this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_dvtw1sPM8[/youtube] “Heals free-radical damage”
Yeah…need to watch out for free-radical damage.
Gee, that must be handy to have in the physics lab.
Which it doesn’t even take much effort to discount these “science” claims. Despite great demand, many such products and treatments have not been proven to give lasting or major positive effects. One study found that the best performing creams reduced wrinkles by less than 10% over 12 weeks which is not noticeable to the human eye.
Wiki blip on the matter.
Yes, and subconscious is a conceptual category of consciousness “level”.
Intuition is one thing that occurs in the subconscious.
The physical network of the subconscious is physically charted as the default mode network.
Intuition is the sensation of receiving pre-conscious decision making information to the conscious cognition.
Basically, Intuition is the subconscious having a chat with the conscious.
It really has to do with the fact that you can’t explain this crap easily.
Trying to explain these transitive ontologies of existential sensation articulately in a manner that equally provokes the same in another human is…well…fucking hard.
I find it odd to want to alter one’s appearance anyways, to go through all the trouble , if it is to fit in, and then reciprocates the condition that to be a women you have to be like the other women that do stuff to just fit in…But then some women enjoy it and don’t do it to just fit in…of course i can come up with arguments as to why that is bad…
But then what i wonder is if wearing all that stuff reduces the bodies capacity to produce anti aging skin issues in the long run and over generations (atrophy of chemical production)…one might pick up evidence of such if one studied a family that used makeup heavily and saw that the family member’s tendency to appear to be older increased over time…which would then of course reciprocate the need for more makeup… But then one would have to take in many other conditions such as eating habits and other stresses that might influence the aging appearance…
yes it would seem to me that all make up can do is literally cover up or fill in the wrinkles, i think it would be better for women to just not wear make-up and get us men used to it…of course i don’t have a problem with that already so i would have an unfair advantage… women are beautiful without make-up…its an odd social habit…but I can see how many like it because it can be meditative, or rather it is conditioned along with the feeling women often had that they were improving themselves so maybe it gives that feeling regardless now…
Yes I have written some stuff on it where i leave the use of those words and simply refer to things in terms of higher level thought and lower…I typically mean above 50% attention means conscious, less then 50% attention means subconscious (attention to thought so thought-awareness maybe) (not that we can really relate numbers exactly but it gives the general idea)
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The hard part is that different people know different things and speak in different languages or sub-languages or sub-sub-languages (languages…dialects, sub-dialects) So rather than speak of it in one language see that many are already thinking of it in a different algorithm, and use their algorithm to discuss it with them… the particular things…but yes showing to people the algorithmic difference in thinking as being the main issue is quite hard, quite hard, as that amounts to coaxing a rock out of a box…ok not that hard…but yes it requires people seeing out of that place… Part of what I see as a way to reveal this is to reveal the similarities between modes of thought…part of the major problem is people do end up having incompatible ideas, but then people presume that those ideas make everything incompatible or of no value…so one needs to show that in general their is value in more things…IDK… it is hard…there are many people resistant to the thought, but there are many open to it too, but one must see the algorithms of others which can be hard even for one that recognizes algorithmic differences…
Yes, but now add to that, not just thought and ideas, but existential sensations of perspective as a whole.
Lity, for instance, has an entire sensation of existence existentially that is in tandem to his faith.
We can talk of gods all we want, but communicating the sensation of gods that effectively charges ones life…that is the great pursuit.
You tried to convey your god to me.
It didn’t work. We used words.
You need more than words to give me your sensation of existence.
I hadn’t thought of that, the solute…except it hasn’t been conditioned so cleanly fortunately…