THE WRATH OF GOD: DOES IT EVEN MAKE SENSE?

“One of you will say to me: ‘Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?’
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is
formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’

(Romans 9:19, 20 NIV)

The source of God’s hostility toward man is that which is called sin:

Sin is a term used in religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule or code, or the state of mind of one committing a violation. The moral code is set by a divine entity (i.e the Abrahamic God).

[b]Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong; in some religions (notably some sects of Christianity), sin can refer to a state of mind rather than a specific action. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed “sinful”.

Common ideas surrounding sin in various religions include:

• Punishment for sins, from other people, from God either in life or in afterlife, or from the Universe in general.

• The question of whether or not an act must be intentional to be sinful.

• The idea that one’s conscience should produce guilt for a conscious act of sin.

• A scheme for determining the seriousness of the sin.

• Repentance from (expressing regret for and determining not to commit) sin, and atonement (repayment) for past deeds.

• The possibility of forgiveness of sins, often through communication with a deity or intermediary; in Christianity often referred to as salvation.

Crime and justice are related secular concepts.
[/b]
(Wikipedia: Sin, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin)

[b]The existence of a capricious or malicious God aside, one can argue that God is hostile to and punishes states of mind and behavior that humans uncontrollably feel and desire to perform.

But there are verses in the Bible stating that God is invulnerable to and unmoved by human behavior, good or bad:[/b]

Look up at the heavens and see;
gaze at the clouds so high above you.
If you sin, how does that affect him?
If your sins are many, what does that do to him?
If you are righteous, what do you give to him,
or what does he receive from your hand?
Your wickedness affects only a man like yourself,
and your righteousness only the sons of men.

(Job 35:5-8 NIV)

The verse above states that God is not emotionally affected by human sin, but Fundamentalist Christianity preaches that God is “broken up” or “torn apart” by sin. What are we to believe? The aforementioned view (of God’s emotional upheaval at the sight of sin) contradicts the verse above. But it is a dire necessity for even the Bible to obey the law of non-contradiction[b], as the presence of contradiction between two or more statements (believed to be true) questions their logic.

For example, a logical concept is that God wishes for all men to be saved (from their slavery to sinful and predatory nature as well as “hell”) and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4), but God is emotionally impervious to sin due to his omniscient foreknowledge and comprehension of the nature of reality.

If God is emotional unaffected by sin, is the very notion of God’s hostility and “wrath” toward sin a logical contradiction?

Perhaps things depend upon the meaning of the terms “hostility” or “hate”. Usually, “hostility” or “hate” evokes images of rage, anger: the clenched fist; the gritted teeth.[/b]

[b]Reading of God’s wrath in the Bible may evoke images of these mannerisms in God (who may be imagined to “clench His fist” or to “grit His teeth” or to “wince” at the thought or sight of sin). But the law of non-contradiction is satisfied if one asserts that God felt true anger and rage as an unconditional Pavlovian response to the imaginary sin of imaginary beings within God’s (pre-universe) prevision of the past, present, and future of a possible world (a logical expression of his omniscience).

Job’s observation of God’s emotional invulnerability to human sin, then, would apply to God’s reaction to sin after his previous reaction to the “original sin” within his pre-universe imagination.[/b]

There are situations in the world that arouse strong emotions in us. Some of these arouse the emotion unconditionally, or from our very first encounter with them: a loud clap of thunder startles us the very first time that we hear it. Pavlovian conditioning provides a powerful account of how objects take on emotional significance. According to the behavioral account, the basic mechanism for all acquired emotional states is the pairing of a neutral object with an unconditioned emotional state.

(Seligman, Martin E.P. and Rosenhan, David L: Abnormal Psychology (pg. 107), Second Edition, W.W. Norton & Company, New York, London, 1984, 1989)

This dissertation questions the rationality and fairness of God’s experience of wrath (rage and anger) toward sin that is not motivated by predatory malice, and the rationality and fairness of his wrath toward uncontrollable desires, feelings, and thoughts that considered ‘sinful’ that continuously rage in the subconscious of the human mind.

[size=150]Severity Of Sins[/size]

Judaism, it turns out, divides sin into three levels—with the more severe sins motivated by malice and defiance:

[size=150]The Three Levels Of Sin[/size]

[b]The generic Hebrew word for any kind of sin is avera (literally: “transgression”). Based on verses in the Hebrew Bible, Judaism describes three levels of sin. There are three categories of a person who commits an avera.

Pesha (deliberate sin; in modern Hebrew: crime) or Mered (lit.: rebellion) - An intentional sin; an action committed in deliberate defiance of God; (Strong’s Concordance :H6588 (פשע pesha’, peh’shah). According to Strong it comes from the root (:H6586); rebellion, transgression, trespass.

Avon (lit.: iniquity) - This is a sin of lust or uncontrollable emotion. It is a sin done knowingly, but not done to defy God; (Strong’s Concordance :H5771 (avon, aw-vone). According to Strong it comes from the root (:H5753); meaning perversity, moral evil:–fault, iniquity, mischief.

Cheit - This is an unintentional sin, crime or fault. (Strong’s Concordance :H2399 (חַטָּא chate). According to Strong it comes from the root khaw-taw (:H2398, H2403) meaning “to miss, to err from the mark (speaking of an archer), to sin, to stumble.”

Judaism holds that no human being is perfect, and all people have sinned many times. However, certain states of sin (i.e. avon or cheit) do not condemn a person to damnation; only one or two truly grievous sins lead to anything approaching the standard conception of hell. The scriptural and rabbinic conception of God is that of a creator who tempers justice with mercy.[/b]

(Wikipedia: Sin, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin)

[size=150]I. What Is Required In Order For God To Be “Fair” To Human Beings?[/size]

[b]God’s fairness or sense of “fair play”, or God being “just” (Romans 3:26) in his treatment of human beings will ultimately depend upon God’s wisdom, in terms of:

  1. His knowledge of the mental and moral difference between himself and human beings, in terms of:

a. His natural inability to be tempted by sin—despite his knowledge of the nature of evil

b. His knowledge of human sensual pleasure, natural aggression, and other uncontrollable states of the conscious and subconscious mind

Human nature can be argued to have first began existence in the mind of God independent God’s will—through the uncontrollable mechanism of God’s omniscient mind. If God is omniscient and knew past, present, and future before the creation of the universe, the law of non-contradiction demands that the nature of man is an accident in the mind of God.

(If one doubts this, then one should ask oneself: if God can know the nature of his future thoughts, and can control whether or not a thought will come to mind, then given the existence of evil in the content of God’s foreknowledge—why did God not prevent his mind from sustaining future imagination of evil, thus removing the phenomenon from even imaginary existence?)

The omniscience of God, if it means pre-universe foreknowledge of the actualization of an imaginary world, begs an equity of God toward created subordinates, who are merely actors performing the “play” of God’s actualization of a possible world. This fairness (which would exist if God is good) demands the existence of mercy, with God’s actions toward humans tempered by mercy (a side-effect of God’s kindness)[/b]

“The problem of sin be solved if I show them……mercy!”

“De Lawd” (God), portrayed by Rex Ingram in the film: Green Pastures, 1936

As Paul observed:

“God has bound all men over to disobedience [in re-enacting the accidental nature of man discovered within the mind of God during his omniscient computation of all possible worlds] so that he may have mercy on them all [by later evolving that mind into one that shares the transcendency and absence of sin of the mind of Jesus Christ, with the formerly sinful coming to accept the evolutionary passage as an aspect of the mechanics behind existence].”

(Romans 11:32 NIV)

[size=150]The Helplessness In The Experience Of Desire[/size]

[b]“…but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do
not do, but what I hate I do. I know that nothing good
lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
For I have the desire to do what is good,
but I cannot carry it out.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good,
evil is right there with me. For in my inner being
I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work
in the members of my body, waging war against the
law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law
of sin at work within my members.

What a wretched man I am!
[/b]
(Romans 7: 14, 18, 19, 21-24 NIV)

[size=150]NEWS REPORT: DALLAS[/size]

[size=145]MINISTER RESIGNS AFTER SEX STING[/size]

[b]A minister who was arrested in an Internet sex sting has resigned his position at a Dallas-area megachurch, a pastor said Saturday.

The Rev. Jack Graham, pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church, said during services Saturday that the church has accepted Joe Barron’s resignation, effective immediately.

Barron was charged Friday with online solicitation of a minor. Undercover officers posing as a 13-year-old girl communicated with the 52-year-old Plano man for about two weeks.

The online conversations were sexual in nature, police said.

On May 6, Barron suggested meeting the girl in person. He eventually made the nearly 200-mile drive to Bryan on Thursday, where he was arrested. Police said they found a Webcam and condoms in Barron’s car.

Barron was released from the Brazos County Jail on Friday on $7,000 bail. Police were unsure if he had an attorney.

Graham said it was a heartbreaking week in which “you need to know that we are appalled and we are disgraced by this terrible action, an unacceptable action, by a minister on our staff.”

Prestonwood Baptist Church is one of the largest churches in the country with 26,000 members and 40 ministers.

(Austin-American Statesman (Metro and State): Minister Resigns After Sex Sting, Monday, May 19, 2008 edition)[/b]

[b]At the bottom level, desire is arguably the psychological and affective “fuel” of sin (save for cheit sins). Aside from accidental violations of God’s law, one violates God’s commands (as it were) because one desires to do so, either because one wishes to defy God (pesha) or because an unwillingness or inability to resist a powerful urge or desire (avon). Extortion or threat notwithstanding, one does what one desires to do.

One can argue, however, that the very experience of desire itself is uncontrollable, in the sense that the experience of an emotional state is beyond the willful control of the individual. If one doubts this, then one can ask if it is possible to arrest a feeling state as one begins to feel it, transforming it instantly into a different feeling leaving no trace of the previous feeling was almost felt.[/b]

[size=150]God’s Commandments v.s. The Genuine Self[/size]

"…I know what you’ve been going through all these years.
The isolation, the Otherness, the hunger that’s never
satisfied. But you’re not alone anymore, Dexter.
You can be yourself with me…
your true, genuine self…"

–Brian Moser (Christian Camargo), serial killer and brother
of the titular protoganist (Michael C. Hall) of SHOWTIME’s:
Dexter

Religious and social norms and standards of conduct ultimately fly in the face of one’s true, genuine feelings and desires. It seems as if one is defeated from the start, as the very things that God forbids are just those things that one is dying to do. But one’s desires, whatever they may be, exist. If they did not, then one could effortlessly obey God’s law. Behind the strife between God and man lies the absence of innate purity of forbidden desire. We are trapped between a rock and a hard place: if not for the fact that we constantly desire and feel just those things that are forbidden, there would exist no need for “thou shalt not”.


[size=150] God’s Requirement For True Goodness: Outward, Physical “Good” Behavior Fails To Make The Grade[/size]

The Bible is adamant concerning God’s (implied or explicit) requirement that an absence of sin (independent of the coverage provided by Christ) necessitates not only restraint of harmful behavior or outward, physical altruism—but an inward purity of heart and desire.

Doctrine of Justification. [b]Yet more impelling than any of these factors was Paul’s doctrine of Justification. As a Jew he had sought security through obedience to Moses’ law. Even afterward, he called the law “holy, righteous, and good,” the true revelation of the divine will.

But man does not obey God’s will. In particular, the law says “Thou shalt not covet,” and this demand for purity of inward desire is violated by every one, every day. So the law, divine as it is, cannot make us good, nor can it forgive us when we sin. In a word, the law cannot “justify”. Unless God intervenes and provides some other means to forgiveness and strength, man is doomed. (Romans 7).[/b]

(New Book Of Knowledge Encyclopedia: The Apostle Paul, Scholastic Press, Canada )

Jesus, in (at least) two statements, implied that inward purity of heart is necessary for sinlessness. Sinful desire—independent of physical “acting out”—is itself sinful behavior:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery’. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

(Matthew 5: 27, 28 NIV)

Or:

[b]“Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man
from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it doesn’t go
into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.

What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean’.
For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts,
sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice,
deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean’.”[/b]

(Mark 7: 18-23 NIV)

What are we to do? The “things that come out of a man and make him ‘unclean’” are supervenient, arising beyond the control of conscious will (we have such thoughts and feelings because they happen to exist: if we possessed the power to prevent their arousal before-the-fact, we would truly have the ability to grant ourselves inward purity of heart). Fortunately, God provides a “loophole” that does not require inward purity of heart: forgiveness of sins through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Just this justification, this forgiveness and moral strength, Paul found in Christ.

(New Book Of Knowledge Encyclopedia: The Apostle Paul, Scholastic Press, Canada)

According to Fundamentalist Christian doctrine (and all other forms of Christianity to a fault), the sacrifice of Jesus Christ settles the debt for the sins (pesha, avon, and cheit) of humanity. Forgiveness, it turns out, compensates for the uncontrollability of sinful desire. Combined with the heartfelt Saving Belief:

“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised
him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

(Romans 10:9 NIV)

[b]:Christian salvation is achieved. All that remains is for the Christian to petition for forgiveness when one sins in the future and to “give it the old college try” in refraining from sin for the remainder of life.

But even with such a “remedial program” Christian doctrine is divided and there are gaps in knowledge: there remains the question of the survival of fallible moral nature in heaven and the faith-without-works v.s. faith-through-works debate.[/b]


[size=150]Charles Manson Goes To Heaven?[/size]

A never-ending “civil war” rages between segments of Fundamentalist Christianity, in the division among believers between the doctrines of “salvation through faith alone” and “salvation through faith and works”. The English translation of the bible contains both.

[size=150]The “Faith Alone” Doctrine[/size]

[b]"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. But to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”[/b]

(Romans 3: 27, 28; Romans 4: 4, 5 NIV)

[b]The “Faith Alone” doctrine is encouraging to those who suffer from uncontrollable habits, lusts, and addictions inhibiting “normal” moral behavior, but it carries an inadvertent loophole that many find reprehensible. The “faith alone” doctrine seems to imply that no moral change or moral striving is necessary: one needs only faith that Christ died upon the cross and rose again. All sins are forgiven and the individual is granted a one-way ticket to heaven regardless of the potential to commit future sin in heaven or the individual’s possession of even the vilest personality.

This moral loophole is a complaint of the Protestant Fundamentalism of Jack Chick. “Chick Tracts” (cartoons with situational dramas stressing the necessity to “get saved now”) propose that moral change is not as important as accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior:[/b]

Jack Chick critics warn of the inherent moral bankruptcy of the “faith alone” doctrine in parody:

If “faith alone” is the name of the game, does this mean that even Charles Manson unquestionably achieves heaven, if he simply “believes in his heart that Jesus rose from the dead”? What is God to do with a psychopath who makes it into heaven based upon his or her “faith alone” in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ? The Bible is silent concerning the pre-afterlife to afterlife morality of heavenly inhabitants, but if scripture in Revelation is an indication (“God will wipe every tear from their eyes”, “Behold, all things are made new!”), a pre-heavenly lobotomy may be imposed upon those whose moral natures are “less than stellar”.

[size=150]The “Faith Through Works” Doctrine[/size]

[b]“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?..faith by itself, if it is not accomplished by action, is dead.

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”[/b]

(James 2: 14, 17, 18, 20-22, 24 NIV)

[b] The “Faith Through Works” doctrine holds that faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and even God’s forgiveness of sins through this faith alone does not suffice for salvation. “Works” are required (good deeds, preaching of the gospel, the performance of miracles (?), etc.). However, a common staple of Fundamentalist teaching stresses the importance of human effort in the performance of these “works”–such that one must not rely solely upon God for one’s salvation but also upon oneself.

The apostle Paul, in his writings, decries this “giving God a helping hand” salvation through self-propelled human effort:[/b]

“You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?”

(Galatians 3:1-3 NIV)

Proponents of self-empowered “faith through works”, however, will ignore Paul’s statement. But perhaps the issue is settled by Jesus himself. This statement of Christ, if placed in the proper context, seems to halt the notion of salvation through self-propelled human effort in its tracks:

“I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”

(John 15:5 NIV)

Still, some will intrepret John 15:5 to mean only that one must depend on Christ to “help out” with one’s salvation through intercession with God for present and future sins and by provision of example for the human to follow. An opponent, however, can argue that such stubborn insistence upon “one’s own effort” is nothing more than a narcissistic denial of a truly theonomous (God-governed and controlled) reality. “Faith through works” adherents rely upon their own power of righteousness, even going so far as to create a “morality of self-reliance”—when scripture implies otherwise:

[b]Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and
earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he
himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole
earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places
where they should live.

God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and
find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

…For in him we live and move and have our being.[/b]

(Acts 17:23-28 NIV)

[size=150]A Truce Between The “Faith Alone” And “Faith Through Works” Doctrines: The Proposition Of A “Faith Through Works” That Is Accomplished Not Through Human Effort And That Arises Only Through “Faith Alone”[/size]

The civil war between the “Faith Alone” and “Faith Through Works” doctines is resolved through the abandonment of self-propelled human effort in righteousness, replacing human effort with Christ-effort—in the proposition of a “righteousness from God” (Romans 3:21, 22) that has nothing to do with human goodness, but that nevertheless is re-enacted by a human through the power of God:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

(Romans 3:21 NIV)

Thus there may exist a new “faith through works” in which Christ performs the “works” within the individual (through replication of the mind of Christ within the human as opposed to an actual “possession” of the human by the original being). The notion of human effort and self-reliance is thrown out and Jesus’ statement that:

"…apart from me you can do nothing.”

—implies the true process of salvation: “Faith through works”—with Christ doing all the work—comes through “Faith alone”!

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

(Romans 3:22 NIV)

“Faith alone” is supported by the verse:

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

(Romans 3:27, 28 NIV)

A man is “justified by faith apart from observing the law” through Christ’s observance of the law for the man through the man! And Christ performs the “works” for the individual once the person sustains the Saving Faith: faith in the experiential relation and connection between Christ and the mind of one who has this type of “faith in Jesus”.

If one has “faith in Jesus” one is now “apart from law”—free from the grind of “Do not touch! Do not taste! Do not say this or do that!” observance of religious moral code, as one now obeys a “righteousness from God” that is so much more than adherence to physical, verbal, and psychological standards of conduct.

[b]Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why,
as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:

“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?

These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on
human commands and teachings.[/b]

(Colossians 2:20-23 NIV)

[size=150]CONCLUSION: God Assuages His Own Wrath BEFORE He Creates The World! A “Spin” Of Biblical Interpretation Proposing The Existence Of A Rational And Meta-Biblical Judeo-Christian God[/size]

[b]In conclusion, one can analyze scripture that implicitly or explicitly expresses God’s wrath to derive a rationality to God’s post-Creation response to sin and sinners—by observance of God’s wrath in the context of omniscience. It is also prudent to mind the logical inconsistencies and contradictions in English translation of scripture, which may cause one to forget verses in the Bible stressing God’s knowledge predetermination of past, present, and future.

With this in mind, one can methodically construct a Theory of Rational Wrath Of God combined with a Theory Of Rational Appeasement Of God by applying a “spin” in the interpretation of English scripture commenting on God’s wrath toward sin. This opens the door to the appeal that there probably exists a rational[/b] meta-biblical [b]God, a “God of the Bible” that nevertheless exists beyond and transcends in objective truth biblical inconsistency and contradiction.

The truth behind this God, despite the fact that this is the God of whom the Bible speaks, is captured only partially in the scriptures, with the charge that the English translation of the Bible probably contains accidental (or even deliberate!) errors and logical (and moral) contradictions. This article thus concludes with a rational construct of God’s wrath toward humans and a rational entailment of the appeasement of that wrath, with support for the thesis garnered by interpretative “spin” of the English translation of key scriptures:[/b]

[size=150]Statement Of A Theory Of Rational Wrath[/size]

1. God does not experience a posteriori (after the fact) wrath against the wicked. God’s vengeful wrath is experienced only as an unconditional Pavlovian response to the predatory evils (pesha sins) previsioned in God’s mental calculations of possible worlds before the creation of the universe.

(a) This vengeful wrath is the result of a suspension of disbelief analogous to the suspension of disbelief during the viewing of gripping works of fiction.

(b) God experiences unconditional Pavlovian “judgmental” consternation mixed with intellectual pity, but not vengeful wrath, toward avon and cheit sins.

2. Intellectual comprehension of his role in the creation of non-imaginary counterparts of the imaginary characters of his possible-world calculations yields a desire to pass or bestow his knowledge, if only in part, to created subjects—as well as to effect one’s subjective experience of transformation from evil to good in the most painless manner possible. The evolution is a sharing with man of the true nature of God’s mind, through man’s experience of the going’s-on in that mind in the form of the experienced world.

3. God makes the experience of an evil world relatively “painless” for his subjects by creating human experience in the form of a hyper-non-lucid dream or simulated reality from which the subject will awaken (in an “afterlife” which is probably the first “real” life the individual will have or one in which the individual lived–asleep, so to speak—the entire time) to find that one was dreaming the negative aspect of the mind of God.

Except in the case of lucid dreaming, people dream without being aware that they are doing so (“non-lucid” dreaming). Some philosophers have concluded that what we think is the “real world” could be or is an illusion (a Skeptical Hypothesis). The first recorded mention of the idea was by Zhuangzi, and it is also discussed in Hinduism; Buddhism makes extensive use of the argument in its writings. It was formally introduced to western philosophy by Descartes in the 17th century in his Meditations on First Philosophy.

(Wikipedia: Dream, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream)

In John Landis’: An American Werewolf In London (1981), protagonist Jack Goodman (Griffin Dunne) suffers a groundbreaking nightmare-within-a-nightmare. The first (senselessly violent) dream is incredibly realistic, and Jack “awakens” from this one to discover (after the fact, as the dreams were non-lucid) that he is in another dream. First-time viewers of the film were just as surprised as Jack to discover that Jack’s “awakening” was merely the preclude to another horrific experience.

See it here…

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPqa1gTfjFo[/youtube]


[size=150]The Theory Of Rational Appeasement Of God’s Wrath[/size]


Cord: You didn’t hear the soldiers; and you didn’t smell the bag; and you didn’t sense the boy—I want an explanation!


The Blind Man: …I knew……


Cord: How?

The Blind Man does not respond, and the sound of a flute refrain is heard as the Blind Man patiently waits for Cord to tumble to the trick. Suddenly, Cord’s eyes widen at the onset of sudden epiphany, to which he responds (whispering with amazement)…

Cord: You were through here before!

—Climactic conversation between Cord the Seeker (Jeff Cooper) and his protector and mentor The Blind Man (David Carradine) in the martial arts film: Circle Of Iron, 1978

See the scene here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfUhTwwVUYs[/youtube]

[size=150]Conflict Resolved[/size]

The conflict between the “faith through works” and “faith alone” doctrines is resolved by an appeal to theonomous determinism and a behavioral salvation performed by Christ within a believing human being [b](a Christ-derived “goodness” distinct from human goodness and effort). This Christ-derived “righteousness from God” (Romans 3:21) follows a faith in Jesus Christ altogether distinct from Fundamentalist meaning.

This “new” faith in Jesus is the mode of Appeasement Of God’s Wrath. God appeases his own wrath before the creation of the universe through the institution of an isomorphic experience-relation between Christ and humans—with all human sins made re-enactments of Christ’s “sins” committed in the mind of Christ while dying on the cross.

Given God’s self-imposed appeasement, one can place an apologetic “spin” upon the term: “forgiveness”—stating that while the common meaning of the term applies to God’s forbearance of punishment toward the sinners through faith in Christ, the absolving of sin is due to sins being “fore-given”: sins have been “given beforehand” to Christ to experience, with Christ made “all in all’ by the redefinition and dilution of evil by the infusion of Christ’s mind with the sinful.

A human coming to possess faith in this new “fore-give”ness (a faith granted by God) is considered truly righteous by proxy of Christ’s infusion and free of God’s wrath and hostility.[/b]

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited to him as righteousness.

(Romans 4: 4, 5 NIV)

Faith activates a “remission of sins” (analogous to the remission of cancer), in which sin “goes into remission”:

Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 2: 38 KJV)

This remission or “abating in force and intensity” or “moderation” (read: a moderation of the symptoms of a disease) of sins (leading to post-afterlife absence of sin) is a gradual decline in the desire to commit future sin. The decline accompanies an increasing interest in and search for the “knowledge of Christ”, an obsessive desire to comprehend and know Christ.

[b]Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.[/b]

(Psalm 1: 1,2 KJV)

“Moments of inward purity” supervene on humans possessing “faith in Jesus”, with these moments of purity derived from Christ himself. These moments occur in concert with “good works” which are themselves not an as aspects of the human’s desire and motivation, but are pre-programmed Christ-behaviors derived from a secondary world in the mind of Christ (experienced post-crucifixion in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2:10 NIV)

[size=150]Faith Alone Wins![/size]

[b]In the end, only “faith alone” is required for salvation, with faith activating “works” accompanied by moments of purity of mind and desire (a mind independent of predatory and sexual desire restrained by Freudian repression)—with one’s “works” and mental purity ultimately re-enactments of the “works” and mind of Jesus Christ.

Human goodness is nevertheless regarded as an analogy of the goodness of Christ, but is of inferior stock compared to goodness accompanied by complete absence of internal sinful state (“…For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder…”).

According to the doctrine of Universalism, those possessing inferior goodness will evolve to eternally possess the superior goodness, and those possessing “momentary” superior goodness in the “here and now” evolve further to possess invariant superior goodness. God is appeased before the fact of sin by controlling its evolution from the beginning.[/b]

[size=150]EPILOGUE[/size]

In the end, God’s wrath toward sin and sinners is rational only if it is placed in context of God’s omniscience. Unfortunately, omniscience is often forgotten as a vital component of God’s intention toward humans. In light of omniscience, the God’s reaction to sin makes sense only in his unconditional Pavlovian response to imaginary pesha sins committed with unjustified predatory malice by imaginary beings.

[b]Even here, God’s justice is tempered with mercy, as the psychopathic mind is simply another aspect of God’s foreknowledge of what could potentially exist within a possible world. Armed with this understanding, God institutes afterlife punishment forcing the psychopath to make full restitution for its crimes (by wearing the bodily form of and suffering a re-enactment of the traumatic experiences of their pre-afterlife victims, with the punishment imposed by a “bot” or zombie resembling the psychopath in pre-afterlife appearance at the time of the crime).

What is the use of this “turnabout is fair play” punishment? It is obviously (given God’s omniscience) for the “benefit” of the psychopath. The psychopath is introduced to the notion that he or she truly lives in a world they didn’t create, and that there exists an Intelligence forcing them to pay for their crimes and to accept the true nature of reality. This afterlife “reality-check” involves lobotomy—in which God “injects” the psychopath with a growing conscience that invades and eventually overcomes the psychopathic psyche. One can argue that this God-imposed lobotomy (in the form of a conscientious “cancer”) is a more lenient (and rational, given omniscience) response of God toward the psychopath than eternal torment in hellfire.

If one doubts this, then where is the logic in eternal torment and damnation of the wicked given God’s omniscience and its infallibility? If God’s foreknowledge is infallible (what God knows beforehand cannot be frustrated or altered by future action or choice), then why would God (if God is good) go through with the creation of the pre-damned? If the pre-damned are predestined to refuse to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and are inevitably destined for the Lake of Fire (Revelations 20), why create such beings in the first place?[/b]


In the end, God’s anger toward sin is appeased before the beginning of the world by linking sinful humanity to Jesus Christ in order to achieve Apocatastasis: a restoration of the previous sinless reality before God’s imagination of evil. Despite the problems posed by pre-damnation, one who believes in the doctrine of eternal hell is free to accept it as “God-inspired” scripture, but it is odd that there are scriptures in the bible supporting the universalism of apocatastasis. It is contended that apocatastasis is ultimately the most ethical response of God (if God is good) to the existence of sin, as sin is ultimately an accident arising within the mind of God in his pre-universe computation of possible worlds.

[size=200]END[/size]

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity
phenomenal_graffiti@yahoo.com
Austin, Texas

Very nicely put together.

It would only make sense if the being were training an elite group. Not a thought I enjoy but, if it is true then the only thing that makes sense; is this life is basically a boot camp.

People recoil at the idea that this is a test. I’m not sure why, unless they believe that their thoughts and actions are preordained. But then how could it be a test? In fact, if that were the case, why not just create our souls in heaven O:) or hell :imp: depending on whether their names had been written in the “Book of Life” from the beginning of time and skip this meaningless middle step. ](*,)

Ahh, but see, I was not thinking test, I was thinking training. The tests come later. There are many things that one can learn in a physical form that one cannot possibly learn if you are energy.

I cringe because, I hate the thought of being owned by a master.

Reply To Kriswest:

[b]Fair enough. But the very notion of theonomous determinism (the view that God controls even human will and thus “pre-programs” the destiny of every subordinate being—analogous to a novel writer or comic book writer’s control over the thoughts, feelings, and fate of each character), if true, would simply be the way that the world happens to exist.

If theonomous determinism is the rule of the game, then a believer in t.d. would not necessarily be a “sheep” (foolishly sacrificing any self-destiny or determination to become a sycophant for another being) but would be revealed to be a realist, whose knowledge and worship of a theonomously deterministic God is ultimately an acceptance of reality; any other belief that refuses or fails to accept t.d would be (knowingly or unknowingly) delusional.

However, a theonomous determinist (which I am) can argue that, analogous to Frederick Hayek’s “neuronally granted illusion of free will” in Gary T. Dempsey’s paper on Frederick Hayek’s theory of the despotism of neurons and the nonexistence of free will (given the causal determinism of the brain over consciousness), that it is the will of God (given that we are never in a position to know how he has determined beforehand for us to behave) to think and act as if we possessed free will, since to our point of view things are happening for the first time. [/b]

Reply To Paineful Truth:

My central argument as to why God did not simply create our souls in heaven, and why there is a “meaningless middle step” in the first place, hinges upon God’s conceivable omniscience (which I entail to be a mental calculation of all possible worlds and all possible entities within those worlds). One might propose that we are ultimately external-world counterparts to the imaginary “characters” emerging within the mind of God (as an aspect of these possible world scenarios), with our imaginary counterparts adhering to the characterization given them here:

“They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.”

(Romans 1: 29-31 NIV)

Thus, it is proposed that God instituted the “meaningless middle step” in order to psychologically and morally evolve [b]these depraved characters within their external-world counterparts (“external world” in the sense of reality beyond the imagination and person of God), making external psychological “lemonade” from the imaginary “lemons” of these indefensible fictional beings.

Why?

As a consequence of the operation of the “mechanism” of Existence itself (which governs even the choice and will of God, in terms of an existential “natural selection” manifest in the very existence of a particular will or choice of action that God intends to take, as opposed to an opposite choice within the mind of God that might have occurred in it’s place). One can propose that this existential natural selection happens to give rise to a Fortuitous Determinism, in which God’s control over us is nevertheless a fortuitous rather than unfortunate “tyranny”, as it is (by existential natural selection) God’s will to impose upon humans an eternally positive future (rather than a negative eternal fate, which would be the case if God were evil).

Using the existence of the world that we happen to experience as an a posteriori component within such a view, it follows that God chose to transform or “recycle” (rather than to ignore) the negative aspect of his omniscient foreknowledge; dealing with it in an ethical manner by utilizing the raw material of “hell” in order to create a future “heaven”.

Or something like that. [/b]

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

"

And that is why we developed faith and belief,truth might be a bit much and cause us to become unhinged. Better to not think of the horrible possibles, cling to the good ones, thus faith and belief keep the bogeymen at bay.

It makes more sense than getting your theology from cartoon strips.

Suit yourself…and to each his (or her) own.

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

Reply To Ned Flanders:

:astonished: Huh???

Exactly, to each their own, the problem is most people tend to try and babysit others, which is why the conflicts. There is really no respect for differences. Screw acceptance, a little respect can work. Thruth for you does not mean it is truth for me or others. We are stuck in a physical universe. We have those that think there is more to the universe than physical and then you have others that think there is nothing besides physical. Niether side can prove completely the truth of what they think, because no one has ever physically survived death. Once the body is dead it is dead, what was the person can’t come back into it and report on their experience. I know I wouldn’t want to, there just is not enough deoderant to cover that carrion smell :-" :smiley:

Reply to Kriswest:

Then again, there are those who question whether or not the ‘physical’ even exists. :sunglasses:

Anyway, good point.

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

You know I was thinking that the wrath of God does actually make sense in a way. There are kids that won’t do what they are supposed to do no matter how much you try to bribe or reward them. You actually have to threaten them. This attitude carries over into adulthood. The simple physchology of anger if you do not behave, is a tried and true method. It works, it keeps us animals in line. Adults fall into a survival rut mode, head down trying to survive and just trying to not break social order. Human laws and God laws have punishment more than reward. Do we get rewarded for not breaking laws? Your reward for following God is you get to go to his domain and serve him. Break either god law or man law and the punishment outweighs the rewards. since God laws are made for man then it does make sense they would follow man’s social laws. Prison is Hell and Hell is prison

Reply To Kriswest:

[b]The wrath of God makes sense, in light of God’s omniscience, as a Pavlovian unconditional response to the “behaviors” of the imaginary beings present within God’s pre-universe imagination. It does not make sense afterwards, particularly if theonomous determinism is true.

(As you can see, as stated within the article, the very notion of God’s foreknowledge of past, present, and future is typically and inadvertently ignored when one regards the logic and rationality of God’s behavior toward humans!)

However,[/b] if God is not omniscient [b]then the entire “getting-angry-punishment-reward thing” for sins perceived by God to have been committed by a human for the first time is a rational response to human sin.

Hell, while judged by humans to be a bit of an overkill for behaviors (particularly any “sin” that is not motivated by malice—which is arguably the only thing that warrants eternal hell according to human ethics), may be the result of the existence of a God who happens to possess a different perception of “sin” and it’s seriousness (such that for an unfathomable reason, all “sin”—including sin not motivated by malice—absolutely and unequivocally must be punished by eternal burning torment—as opposed to consignment to eternal oblivion or lobotomy and rehabilitation).

A dangerous moral perception?[/b] You bet. [b]Particularly when one considers that if God possesses this dangerous perception of “sin” (such that littering must incur the punishment of roasting forever in the “lake of fire”) that humans are in the strange and hopeless predicament of simply dancing the way that God tells us to dance, and hope we dance in a way that doesn’t land us in the furnace.

Never mind ever knowing why accidental or non-malicious “sins” “logically” and “ethically” lands one in an eternally burning pit of fire—just dance the God-imposed dance of “righteousness”, cross your fingers, and hope you didn’t do anything to set off this inscrutable moral perception.

However, it seems feasible that the whole “wrath of God” concept must follow the law of non-contradiction when placed in the context of this biblical verse:[/b]

“Before a word is on my tongue, you know it completely, O Lord.
All the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.”

             (Psalm 139: 4, 16 NIV)

And:

“I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.”

             (Isaiah 46:10 NIV) 

[b]Are we not to infer a claim of omniscience from the above verses? Do these verses matter? Do we simply ignore them for the sake of a belief in free will? If the above verses (and others that imply God’s foreknowledge) is not to be taken seriously, then what is it doing in the Bible? Is it just “there” to listlessly hang in poetic limbo, meaning and describing nothing----such that we can just ignore these “omniscience verses” and move on as if God is taken by surprise by free will and human action?

(Or even more puzzling, do the verses inexplicably describe only God’s foreknowledge of the comings and goings of just a single human being, such that God is somehow ignorant of the future when it comes to everyone else that shall ever exist beyond this single being? :astonished: )

My central point is that it is absolutely necessary to weigh anything…anything…that we conceive that God intends to do to humans (either “in the here and now” and the afterlife) on the scale of Psalm 139: 4, 16 and Isaiah 46: 10, if (as a small example), these verses are not simply idle poetics that are not to be seriously considered as “canon” in the description of the powers of the Judeo-Christian God.[/b]

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity
phenomenal_graffiti@yahoo.com

Jay–

Do you think that the Bibilical message is totally coherent? What about reading the books as differering theologies? The varying theologies might have more or less in common. For example, is the Gospel of John totally compatible with the synoptic gospels or are there areas of convergence and divergence? The books of the Bible may all espouse belief in God but varying conceptions of who or what God is.

Is the new testament in total harmony with the old or are there discernable areas of conflict between them? Can soteriology of the Biblical authors in both testaments be completely harmorized or do they have partially or completely differing views?

Is the view that the Bible is completely coherent and consistent from one book to another extra-biblical or do any of the authors explicitly assert that this is the case?

I think free will is sorely misunderstood. Free will is limited to possible choices. We have the freedom to choose doors 1,2,or 3. If 4 does not exist then we cannot choose it, thus our will is limited. we can try to will a fourth door butif it does not exist at all, then it really can’t be possible. not even a omnicience or omnipotent being can not have utter free will or give utter free will, it must limit free will to existing choices. Our exercise of our version of free will is limited to physical choice. there are real limits that no God could ever remove or add. If it does not exist for that god then it does not exist and even its free will has shown a boundry.

since the Gods are in charge supposedly it can only give us free will to choose possible existing paths, if you choose the wrong path that is your free will choice. Does this make sense? Will is always limited by what exists.

Reply To Kriswest:

Free will, I think, has been adequately defined by economist Frederick Hayek in his papers on neural despotism and the (possible) absence of free will due to the control of will by one’s neurons:

“Hayek’s view that the mind is a complex adaptive system or “spontaneous order” holds a significant implication for the age-old controversy about free will—defined as a will that is not the exclusive and necessary result of the interaction of physical material. As far as we have seen, the mind consists of matter and its relations, and since everything can be realized in these materialist terms, there is simply no room for freedom of will.

(Dempsey, Gary T:Hayek’s Evolutionary Epistemology, Artificial Intelligence, and the Question of Free Will cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/hayekee.html)

[b]Despite Hayek’s insistence upon the interactions of matter as wholly responsible for the existence of “will” in the first place, an arguably correct definition of “free will” is will that is not the subject of antecedent causes, i.e. an acausal psychic phenomenon. It does not matter if we have billions of choices and the phenomenal ability to narrow those billions of possible choices to one, the question of free will is basically of question of whether an external person (e.g. God), force, or mechanism (e.g. the brain) that must first create our will or choice in the first place.

If an external person, force, or machine must first operate before we are able to experience and exercise “will” in the first place, then free will, at the causal level does not exist. In order for free will to exist, the subjective experience of will must magically “pop” into existence all by itself, wholly free of any antecedent cause.

One can argue that there exists, nevertheless, a “pseudo” or “quasi”-free will, in the sense that we have “free” will when we exercise will free of another human’s or biomedical influence. Consider Norman Swartz’ definition of free will and understand that it is actually a “quasi-free will” rather than “true” free will (which would require self-existent consciousness independent of the brain or anything else): [/b]

[size=150]1. Introduction and Conditions for Free Will[/size]

What does it mean to have free will? To have free will at least two conditions must obtain.

[b]1. We must have two or more possibilities ‘genuinely open’ to us when we face a choice; and

  1. our choice must not be ‘forced’.[/b]

The concept of free will plays a central role in our thinking about the world, particularly in our apportioning praise and blame, and in our finding persons morally responsible for things they have done.

All sorts of conditions serve to diminish moral responsibility (and blameworthiness). We do not hold persons morally responsible for their actions when they are:

[b]* under the influence of a powerful medication having unexpected psychological effects

* very young (since the young are unable to predict [foresee] the consequences of their actions and may themselves not have mature concepts of right and wrong)

* delirious

* coerced, e.g. by someone putting a knife to their throats or a gun to their heads.[/b]

(An aside: The French Existentialist philosopher, Jean Paul Sartre [1905-1980], who fought as a Partisan in the Second World War against the Nazis, refused to accept as an excuse for complicity, “But it was my life or theirs [i.e. the innocent victims of the Nazis]”. Sartre argued that even under such dire circumstances, one is still morally responsible for one’s actions and one is free to choose life or death, and that in some instances choosing life is an immoral choice.)

[b]* physically forced by a person or thing of superior strength[/b] 

The list of ‘excusing conditions’ has grown steadily over the years.

* For example, recently in a court case, a man was found not guilty of murder on the grounds that he was sleepwalking during the killing (including driving his car to the victim’s house across town).

Many other ‘factors’ influencing behavior have been proposed:

[b]* one’s genetic makeup (over which one has no control)

* one's environment and upbringing (again over which one has little, if any, control)

* one's education which, at least in one's early years, is – again – beyond one's control[/b] 

But when all these ‘influencing’ and ‘controlling’ factors are considered, is there any room left for the exercise of one’s own freedom? Can one truly choose? Or is free choice, ultimately, a myth and/or an illusion?

(Swartz, Norman: Lecture Notes on Free Will and Determinism, sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/freewill1.htm)

Frederick Hayek also notes that although there may exist no “acausal” will, there is nevertheless a pseudo-free will, in the form of our being controlled to believe that there [u]is[/i] free will, and our being controlled to behave as if there were acausal free will:

“Not so fast, responds Hayek; we can never introspectively predict how our mind is to be determined. Instead, “we can know [our mind] only through directly experiencing it” (1952, p194). With regard to the issue of goal-directed action, then, Hayek makes it clear that his materialism makes no practical difference in our daily lives; we must still conduct ourselves as if we are free because we can never know how we are meant to behave.

(Dempsey, Gary T:Hayek’s Evolutionary Epistemology, Artificial Intelligence, and the Question of Free Will cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/hayekee.html)

At the end of the day, in order to logically claim that free will exists, one must believe that “will” magically exists independent of something that causes it to exist, and independent of something that must cause “will” to exist in order for it to be experienced.

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity
phenomenal_graffiti@yahoo.com

Reply To Felix Dakat:

You know, Felix—for all the Bible that I have read, and for all the commentary on the Bible and the preaching from the Bible I have heard or read, I would not go so far as to say that any of the biblical authors actually stated that the Bible is coherent from one book to another. Someone who might say such a thing will only have the “proof” of this very special verse:

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

(2 Timothy 3:16)

[b](God, how I remember…that one verse we sang every summer in BTU (Bible Training Union) service at my old church when I was a teenager :confused: )

Anyhow…what was I saying?..Oh. 2 Timothy 3:16 is arguably the “green lantern power battery” that fuels the “green lantern ring” of the very belief in the inerrancy of the bible itself (which requires a coherency and consistency between the books of the Bible).

But anyone who believes in Biblical Inerrancy (and unanimously consistent), I think, will have to seriously contend with your question.

Many people believe that 2 Timothy 3: 16 implies that the God of the Old Testament who orders the complete destruction of men, women, and children of a rival nation or religion from Israel is the same God of transcendent goodness that is the “savior of all men” and the father of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. My opinion: some things are obvious, but we may not wish to face up to that obviousness.

In my (non-expert) view, 2 Timothy 3:16 speaks of “all scripture” as any and all scriptures that preach that:[/b]

(x) Jesus lived a sinless life (albeit not without trouble), was crucified, died, and rose from the dead, and that;

(y) Christ “came in the flesh”—in the sense that Christ shared the sins and fate of every man, and thus “justifies” or provides a cosmic “excuse” for the wicked (as well as a psychological and causal impetus for their rehabilitiation)

Verses in the OT, namely within the Psalms and others, can be interpreted to imply (x) and (y)—or to imply a world that contains a God with a psychology that supports the existence of (x) and (y). Other verses in the Old Testament are wholly unrelated and disinterested in (x) and (y), or do not logically or rationally imply a God that would support (x) and (y).

[b]In the end, I think it depends upon the “spin” one uses to interpret the scriptures and whether or not this “spin” is itself objectively inspired by God through faith (thus indicating that what consistutes the “all scripture” that is the focus of 2 Timothy 3:16 is subjectively discerned through logic, reason, and faith—based upon the law of non-contradiction—for logic and reason—and a faith in Jesus Christ—for knowledge of what to accept and what to deny).

Or interpretative “spin” is simply an effort to create a “sugar-coated” theology based upon what one wishes or wishes not to accept as “instruction in righteousness” or “how to get into heaven and avoid eternal torment in hell”.

Christian or theologians who adhere to complete coherence and consistency of the entire Bible (regardless of the thousand-odd English translations of the Bible, not to mention those of other languages) believe that they enjoy the inspiration from God, and accuse Christians and theologians who can’t help but to stare at the “mole” of the inconsistencies and contradictions of the “in plain sight” interpretation of English translations of the Bible (analogous to Austin Powers’ (Mike Myers) obsessive attention to the mole on the face of the British Intelligence “mole” (Fred Savage) in the film: Austin Powers: Goldmember)----of being sugar-coated “do-it-yourself” theologians, bound for eternal damnation if they don’t accept the inerrancy of the English translation of the Bible.[/b]

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

:laughing: :laughing: I had to laugh at this whole post, not at you but, the fact that Hayek sounds like a defense lawyer’s dream come true. “Sorry, he did not kill that person he was not in control, there was no free choice.” I can’t believe a jury bought that a guy drove his car across town while asleep and then killed someone. I would love to have those defense lawyers in my pocket :smiley:

Hayek pretty much allows humans to get away with murder and bear no responsibility. Nope I don’t buy into it. I can’t.
If I chose to let hayek’s study be a guide for my “will”, I could not look at myself. It lacks responsibility. Pretty Chickensh*t.
Not you, just Hayek. He may be correct but, that does not make him right. Of course choice is persuaded by inside and outside factors, thats a gimmee. Nothing in life is free not even “will”. But a choice is a choice and more than one choice gives some freedom. While two choices exist there is a chance you will pick the one that you are not inclined to pick. Its only when you remove totally that other choice that “will” is gone.

It is my “will” to choose against Hayek even if his findings are correct, because, I find Hayek dead wrong in spite of his correct findings. It is my will to bear responsibility for my actions even though an outside or internal force influences them. For me to not bear responsibility would mean that I am a puppet, a coward and a lowlife seeking to hide from the universe.
I will keep the freedom of bearing responsibility of my will and ways. And perhaps there lies true freedom of will,Yes?

Oh and you happen to have the name of those lawyers?,just incase you know? , you never know, :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

Reply To Kriswest:

[b]I don’t think that Hayek was advocating “no responsibility” for one’s actions per se: rather, he was simply admitting that there exists a simple, commonsense implication when one seriously considers neural control over and determination of subjective experience (if such a control truly exists): the commonsense implication is that free will, defined as a will that is independent of antecedent causes that determines whether or not will will even exist, does not exist.

The very notion that one is “responsible” for one’s actions (even though or if an outside or internal force controls----rather than simply “influences” them)—is ultimately a psychological construct (or psychological “stance”) in the form of a feeling or belief that one is in control of one’s behavior or that one is “responsibile” despite the existence of external controlling external forces or person(s)[/i]. That’s it. “Responsibility for actions” is simply psychological rather than objectively true (if causal or theonomous determinism is true).

Choices are “choices”, they mean nothing more than that. Having the psychological sense of “freedom” due to those choice, once again, is nothing more than a psychological perception of self-empowerment within a universe that may ultimately be beyond one’s control. A person who believes in causal determinism, (or theonomous determinism as I do), can believe or “know” that we are just puppets, but can “forget” this fact (if it is a fact) and continue to go on as if we were not puppets. A theonomous determinist does not go around acting like a robot, in fact, the theory holds that God causes one to go about as if one were free and in control of one’s actions, forgetting, if you will, that one is controlled by an external being.

It comes down, I think, to this: IF we are controlled by an external person or force, then one is not necessarily a coward and a “lowlife” seeking to hide from the universe:[/b] rather, one is realistic rather than delusional. [b]There’s nothing “cowardly” about understanding the true nature of our existential circumstances (if it is a truth)—that doesn’t make sense. And one who comes to know and understand causal or theonomous determinism (if true) is not “hiding” from the universe: rather, one who discovers causal or theonomous determinism actually bravely confronts rather than “hides” from the universe, and forces oneself to admit to it’s true nature for the very first time. Those who deny this external control, then, are the ones who are truly “hiding”.

Does this mean that one can simply claim: “I am not responsible!” and run around committing crimes like Mr. Mxtxlyplx?[/b]

[b]Depends upon how one is controlled. Many are controlled to believe that they are “responsible” for their actions (while objectively they are not), and are controlled to behave in a responsible manner.

[Thus one could be called a “coward” in this case if one attempts to avoid responsibility for a crime by those who claim “responsibility” for their actions, and while the “cowardly” individual would be correct in claiming that the crime occurred due to causal or theonomous determinism, it would be a matter of universal control in that the individual is controlled in such a way as to feel and to be a “coward” rather than one who is controlled in such a way that the individual is granted a psychological perception of “responsibility” for one’s actions).[/b]

Or something like that,

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

You do make sense but as for me I mentioned from my perspective, i would be a coward, not anyone else. You rightly imply that life is perspective.Not all of us can run into a burning building to save another and not all of us can scrub a toilet well enough to be free of dirt and germs.( :wink: yes this is true, I have lived with guys all my life :laughing: )

We all are pieces and each piece while similar to the one next to it, is different. On choice and freedom, well, perhaps choice and freedom is just directed at being what you are , the piece that you are supposed to be or should be.

Fear of making the wrong choice creates a prison, heading headlong into choices can do the same. Am I controlled? Yes.

Not one thing in this universe exists that is not controled. All things have their place. A god can no more be a germ then you or I could be a drop of water.
That being said then the Wrath of god makes sense on a different level then our original banter. And then again it does not. Other’s perspectives are hard walls to see through. What fits for me will not fit for another. The wrath of god may only be directed at certain perspectives and not meant for all. that man tries to mold one perspective to fit all is a normal human survival I am the superior ape instinct.
Freedom to choose. Free will, If you are meant to follow a god or not follow a god; if you make the wrong choice what then?
Will seems more and more to me just that urge to live and follow the easiest path to the end. Will and free do not go together, almost oxymoronish in a way. Perhaps?