i hope humean will keep this in philosophy…
the death instinct theory is inaccurate…no such instinct exists…behavior must be explained in other ways…
the major instincts are self preservation and species preservation…that is it…life is it…
this is an important issue to discuss by philosophers because it has so much to do about explaining what life is about…
You ever wanted to be abused, degraded, tortured, destroyed and enveloped by another person? In my mind, extreme guilt, shame, or masochism could lead to one wanting to destroy themselves, and this instict may even have a evolutionary purpose, being that evolution may have programmed us to consider destroying ourselves, if we discover, or think or feel that we are defective in some way, abnormal, strange, bizrre, or incompeten, dangerous, mostly malevolent, and a significant burden and hindrance to our community, our friends, family and neighbors, if we think or feel we have nothing to contribute to our tribe, for whatever reason, we’re crippled, or we are useless. Also, we are programmed to hate pain, and we may hate feeling the sensation of pain more than we love life, ending our lives may be a means to an end, the end being ceasation of pain.
If we discover an extremely powerful, magnanimous person, if we ourselves feel we are stupid and weak in comparison, some of us may be programmed to let ourselves be used and abused by that person, even unto death. This is masochism, and it can be explained in evolutionary terms.
You ever wanted to get lost in a crowd, absorbed, did you ever want to mimic someone to such a degree, that you would loser your identity in the herd? Democracy, conformity and mimicry, are in many ways, the death of the ego and the identity, so is being part of team, or joining the army, all forms of memitic death, where you become lost in the whole, and will gladly surrender your life for it, and forget yourself. You see, philosophers like Nietzsche extol the virtue and the pleasure of the ego, but many humans actually hate themselves, and would rather sacrifice themselves for the collective. The alpha males pro life tendencies are very pronounced, but most humans are omega, and life and death, is more intertwined for them, and indeed society could not survive without them.
yes there are all kinds of self destructive behaviors
but they no longer can be explained by a death instinct…the human brain has no place for destruction…only homeostasis…not death only life.
freud happens to be wrong on this one…
Show me a person who’s needs are not in the least being satisfied, and I will show you a dying man. Show me a person who’s needs are absolutely satisfied, and I will show you a dying man, completely inactive, frozen in a trance like, catatonic state. In the absolute sense, life and death are the same, they are both forms of slumber, or very similar. Life death, these words are misleading, for us, there is no life and death, there is only living and dying, life and death are the same, living and dying are different.
The goal of life is complete inactivity, where all needs are satisfied. Such a state is comparable to death.
In general I would say you are correct, we want to live, but sometimes, some of us want to destroy ourselves, or harm ourselves, or forget ourselves, our identity and our free will, for the sake of others, and sometimes we are programmed to harm, or dominate, or destroy others for the sake of ourselves, and our immediate family friends, it depends on the individual and the circumstance, some are more humble, docile, masochistic and submissive, some are more aggressive, dominant and sadistic, violent, and most are somewhere in the middle, and they prefer far exchanges, non sacrificial/altruistic exchanges. Altruism/egoism, alpha/omega tendencies lead to death and destruction for some, mutual, beta tendencies lead to collaboration and win/win, non sacrificial exchanges.
The sadistic elites who are alphas, whether they are open about it or not, and being sadistic and wanting a greater share of resources, they will harm and destroy the masses, and increase their omega tendencies, coax them to sacrificing themselves for the greater good, or the magnanimous men. The elites rely on our self hatred, and self negating and destructive tendencies, when properly controlled and regulated.
but i would imagine that if you lived for over a million years you may want to die out of boredum or perhaps at least begin a new life…
the idea of a death instinct in humans is quite flawed…we can put it in the trash can…
actually the biggest problem that faces humans is the fact that we die and want so much TO LIVE… how do you live with that???-----well you make up a story where you are saved in the final reel…
turtle…
Perhaps by first seeing death, not so much as a problem, but as the reality. Most problems may be solved - death is not one of them.
But what we can do is to see our cup as being half full - not half empty. Yes, there is Death (half empty) but Yes there is Life (half full).
We live our lives in such a way that even knowing death can never be defeated, we WILL NEVER be defeated by death - not in any meaningful way that matters.
And the more that comes to matter to us in a rare and meaningful way, the more filled that cup becomes.
I happen to feel that there is a death instinct inherent within us, just as much as there is an instinct for life. If we don’t see both, are not aware of both, how can we choose life?
Turtle,
You haven’t justified your position here, you’re just declaring the theory garbage. Why should it be thrown out? Why/How was Freud wrong?
Also, calling it the “Death Instinct” can be somewhat misleading–
This plays against the Schopenhauerean conception of the Will to live. To live is to suffer, and the Death Drive is something like a negation of that will [to suffer].
ok statik…lets say death drive…
there is no brain structure that supports a theory of death drive…only life drive…
please demonstrate any brain structures having to do with such a theory…a long time ago the fellas were trying to explain violence that seemed self-destructive…now that we know some about the brain we must reconsider the reasons for self-destruction behavior…you wont find it in the brain…and that is where it has to be…
Same brain structure. I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking for. A drive theory generally concerns motives.
statik----i dont understand when you are talking motives…i am talking about brain structures like the hypothalamus…
Well you won’t find a Death-Drive-cortex, if that’s what you’re looking for. By motivations, I mean that which drives or determines our innate faculties, inclinations, psychological responses, and even brain activity. This is not to necessarily say the will gives us purpose, but, rather, sets us in motion so-to-speak. There would be no homeostasis without conflict.
Honestly, I see two as essentially different sides of the same coin. To live is to die. The will to live doesn’t and can’t exclude death.
but statik when you talk about drive or instinct it seems you need to mention brain…certain brain cells that are responsible for certain patterns…those past guys didnt know…they couldnt…as far as “to live is to die”----of course we die but that says nothing about what freud meant…freud needed something that sounded basic but he needs to be updated…people get the wrong idea about that death thing…they use it to explain behaviors that might have better explanations…
Give me the right idea about Freud’s “death thing”, then. Set me straight. What did Freud mean?
The Death Drive theory stands in direct relation the Will to live, per Schopenhauer. He saw behavioral and psychological patterns as manifestations of these - often opposing - drives. He assumed these manifestations had causes. We don’t know which cells provide us a will to live, but we can identify the role they play in a living thing. Same with death.
You’re not going to find a purely mechanical explanation for all human behavior, which is why we have theories like this in the first place.
Even Freud wouldn’t dispute that the behaviors may have better explanations. I’m just saying you’ve yet to offer any, or justify your assertions.
statik-----
i am not talking about “will to live”…i am talking about instincts for self preservation and species preservation…the cells for those instincts/drives
are there in the hypothalamus…but on testing there are no cells for a death drive/instinct…