There is no such thing as love?

So I was thinking there is no such thing as love as we know it. And what we mistake for love really still has more to do with our own selfish needs. So I mean if I saw a loving family, perhaps they are only people that have become intermingled so deeply with one another that some form of dependency has been established.

Maybe it is out of selfishness that each party would want the relationship to continue as they are getting something out of it but as soon as they are not any longer they would easily leave.

So the definition of love being deep and trusting and honest and all that, maybe all of that isn’t true and maybe love is just two agendas agreeing with each other…???

What? No, Jesus. I must seriously disagree with you on that one, lady. Wherefrom does art stem? Wherefrom do visions of goddesses arise? Wherefrom does poetry stem?

As a subjective emotion, love exists if we feel it exists, and since I feel love whenever I look at a Van Gogh, listen to Beethoven’s 9th (or “In my Life” by The Beatles for that matter) or think about my girlfriend, to me, it exists.

thats not love youre feeling when you think about your girlfriend, its sexual desire and comfort. You would easily apply it to some other girl who struck your fancy a little more.

As for a painting or music, thats not love wither, its relaxing, pleasant, enjoyable, strike a pleasant chord with you for one reason or another and might very likely repulse you one day too but that’s not love.

I take it that you have never been in love PhilosophyGirl?

Once again, I’m afraid I must strongly disagree.

I know what sexual attraction is. And I know what quiet relaxation is.

The love I speak of is a kind of madness. A desire, a near holy adoration of the subject. You might argue that I am deluding myself, that such feeling merely stems from your aforementioned situations, but I must disagree. The love I speak of encompasses such things, but it is beyond them. The love I speak of is lust for life, passion for exsistence. With it, of course, come the necessary shadows of fear and numbness, but they too are part of the experience encompassed.

I fear that what has happened, and I mean no offense, is that you have lost faith in love (or never had it) and so have reduced it to a concept that you are currently comfortable with. I pray you reconsider.

Perhaps this discussion will blossom into a debate about the existence of altruism. Certainly, altruism is a component of love as it’s most commonly defined, but does altruism exist? Does its existence, or lack thereof, reflect the possibility of a notion of “love?”

You are talking about romance or passion or a desperate need…this is not neccessarily love.

I must disagree again.

Those things are simply names for love, though just three of many, (i.e. devotion, friendship, curiosity, etc.)

But I must wonder again, becuse of the subjective nature of love, I have to ask how you came to know so much about my feelings? Moreover, how would you yourself define the love we’re supposed to be lacking?

I dont know your feelings but i dont think you have given evidence of love existing. I defined love for you in my first post, I dont think there is such a thing, it is a selfish thing, we are only motivated by selfish desires.

Love is selfish it is supposed to be selfish but not selfish the way selfish is usually thought of. Each emotion and action has different meanings and angles. Love unites singles into a self, a one. What occurs with in that loving self is quite selfish. The actions and emotions of love are designed to strengthen that unity to give it existence and growth, so yes love is very selfish. That is a good selfish not a bad selfish.

Love is not Hollywood nor fairytales it is all the emotions wrapped up into one. It is good and bad, It causes strengths and weakness. It brings happiness and anger. A solid true lasting love learns how to balance, accept and grow with the bad as well as the good. If the bad things cause you to turn away then there really was not a unified love. Compassion /maybe, lust/ probably, fondness/ yes, but, love? no.

True unconditional lasting love is rare because so many people lack the patience to nurture it or to find it.

Obviously the love for an “other” is a selfish desire. It helps us to escape the self and to confide and justify our existence. Many cannot handle being left alone with their own ego so they flee the self and lose themselves in the “other”.

There is also the selfless love of a parent for his/her child. In many cases I don’t think this is a selfish drive but a true love for the other. But there is a few cases were the parent has a child and looks after the child to flee the self and confide in the "other’.

That thought has struck me after I had read the first post.

It’s very difficult to define love, for there are too many different emotions associated with this word and probably most of them are wrong.

I assume that this subject should be limited to a specific love (like in partnerships).

Before I give my input on this matter, let me ask you a few questions:

What about those who are willing to die for their beloved ones? There are so many stories about this ‘pure’ kind of love?

Would you still call it selfish? Why would someone give his or her life for another person if not out of pure insanity? (according to your theory)

I guess PhilosophyGirl has stumbled upon the theory which claims that people always act in the most profitable (for a lack of a better word) way available to them. It’s a standard psychological theory, that the psyche always does what is best for itself. Hence if the psyche sees that a partner is good for its stability then it’ll seek one. Is the love the person gives selfish or selfless? There can be two opinions about it and I think both of them are right in a sense.

According to that priciple there is no selfless deed. Indeed every deed is done because the person wants to feel good.

When I was younger and in highschool (16) I used to think every deed is selfish. But then I thought “Would you call someone who WANTS to help someone and is willing to sacrifice his own needs in order to do that?”. Selfless act does not turn into a selfish act just because a person WANTS to do it and it’ll make the feel good about themselves. Mother Theresa wasn’t selfish just because she wanted to help people who are less fortunate.

That’s my answer and it’s easily translated into the language of love :smiley:

Besides the best thing I think I’ve realized in my life is that no matter what theories we’re able to come up with and prove, they on’t change the way we feel one bit (unless it changes our culture and society in a very dramatic way, but that isn’t relevant here :slight_smile: ). Try to explain the idea of selfish love to a love struck person.

This is gonna be kinda long; just a warning.

This is a matter over which I’ve given plenty of thought myself. I’m torn between the concept of altruism and egoism, though I’d like to shed some light on them from a psychological perspective before giving my own thoughts.

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Altruism is psychologically defined as an unselfish concern for others.

Egosim argues that actions that appear altruistic on the surface alleviate the sitress caused by witnessing another’s suffering and lead to material, social, or self-rewards.

Coke, Batson, and McDavis (1978) claimed to have provided evidence that altruism is triggered by empathy (feeling of sympathy/compassion for someone after imagining yourself in the same situation). They manipulated empathic feelings and found that participants who experienced the most empathy offered the most help.

Toi and Batson (1982) designed an experiment to compare altruistic behavior to egoistic behavior. The design was a 2x2 factorial design, and the experimenters manipulated levels of empathy (either high or low) and difficulty of another person’s escape from a particular situation (either easy or hard), making four groups with combinations of the above levels. Low-empathy participants helped less if escape was easy than if it were hard, which implied that they were motivated by the need to reduce their own distress (egoism). Participants in the high empathy group helped equally regardless of the difficulty of escape, implying altruism as their motivation.

Some psychologists suggest that empathy, the core of altruism to the above experiments, has evolutionary value as a means of communication: those with whom we can communicate best can help us the most. In a sense, empathy is almost a manipulative way of getting others to help you and, thus, does not involve altruism.

(The above was taken from Motivation: Theory, Research, and Applications by Petri & Govern, 5th Edition, p.300-301.)

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As for my own opinion on the subject:

It’s impossible for experiments to remove rewards from any circumstances because of self-rewards. We have a tendency to evaluate our own actions and determine whether or not they match up to our own morality (I think this is Cognitive Dissonance theory). I remember hearing a saying once that went something like “Each person lives life the way they think everyone should.”

I would be interested in seeing some research on altruism / egoism in animals, though this would be a great deal of speculation. In Zoology, they use a different definition of the term altruism, which is “Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species.” The ideal example of this is the bee, which loses its life fighting off predators in order to protect the hive.

There’s no reason that motivation can’t be comprised of several factors at once, including egoism and altruism simultaneously, but this is only because it’s likely impossible to prove one or the other doesn’t exist.

Completely altruistic actions may need to be voluntary, which may also require free will, which presents another debate in itself. If people don’t choose to be altruistic and are instead instinctively manipulated, as the evolutionary perspective seems to emphasize, actions don’t seem altruistic. As an example, a pregnant mother begins lactating at her own nutritional expense in order to care for her child. Is this altruistic?

Even if we accept that every action one performs has certain expectations of benefit, even if it’s just their own security in knowing who they are as a person, this may not necessarily be the strongest motivating influence. Even in the experiments that seemed to demonstrate altruism, the people “felt better” after successfully helping; this is a consequence, but one with personal sacrifice of help and another’s gain of success.

Any thoughts?

Are you guys talking about love as divine, or love as a process of chemicals in the brain?

Rubbish. Pleasurable and inspiring rubbish.

A feeling that promotes deeper unity within two instances of variables.

Once the feeling gets “high” enough, it appears that one is in a state of unity with everything. They begin to feel attraction towards – and feel intimate with reality and the universe. They begin to care more, thus take more of an interest, thus find more “value” in the target.

Believe it or not, “love of god” is a fetish.

~

Still, at the root, it is instinctively “selfish”, you look for what turns you on the most. It is partial, biased, and it is an intense focus upon the positives. You look for what gives YOU pleasure – within another, then try to attach yourself to another.

Not only is this love a two-edged sword [which can heal or kill, depending on placement] – but also, human “love” is often an extremism, subject to bipolarity. For this reason – it is stressful and dangerous.

~

The final result of intoxication – is attachment. The human brain, after the intoxication, becomes extra-mindful of that which gave it such pleasures.

“Love” is neither “good” nor “bad”; it is a reaction to pleasure, promoting attachment.

I’m too much of an objectivist for you to trick me with your halmark moments.

“Selfishness” is neither “good” nor “bad”, and all forms of action are either directly or indirectly “selfish”.

Deny sexuality. Ignore what has been preached towards your wallets.
Humans are overpopulating. Humanity is heading for a crash.

No. I have defined it perfectly. It is a reaction to pleasure, and a craving. Also, it is fear, terratorialism, agression, social stimulation, etc. Human “love” is allot of different instincts fireing off at once, thus it only becomes “indescribable” due to its compound or complex nature, but once deconstructed, it is instinctive raw elements.

Believe it or not, you are a biological robot, preprogrammed, reacting to the world.

Well typed, that’s what I was getting at.

Thanks Dan, ever the kind word.

Anyway, P-Girl, of course I can’t prove love to you, like I said, subjective. In that sense, this whole thing has been a waste of time, since nobody could really ever convince someone else of their notion of love. That was mine, for for someone else it could be totally differant.

And by the way, you never gave a clear definition of love, no.

<3

I love you too.

=)

Mwah, you don’t have to thank me.
Any time you need anything just ask, I love to make you happy.
Pecious, cute, wonderful, lovely.
Mwah…

kiss