This is the end my friend...

Shoot, there are so many things I want to comment on, but I’m trying to manage my time…must…manage…time…

One quickie:

What shy and others are referring to re. the person who basks in misery is what Lacan called “jouissance,” or “getting off on pain” (I think I wrote that somewhere else before). And I think I wrote somewhere here (or other site?) about the very phenomenon you’ve written about: doing your best to help someone who just doesn’t want to help him/herself. I always give that speech to my students b/c I know from professional and personal experience exactly what’s going to happen. Which is also why I always tell friends, students, or even clients, when they ask me for advice: “talk is cheap; advice is meaningless.” Okay, sometimes advice helps, but for the big things, advice rarely is good and/or rarely is followed (for long), even when it is good. And for someone like me, that was one of the hardest lessons to learn as a therapist (it might not be obvious, but I have a wee tendency to want to throw my two cents around all over the place…I know, I know, it’s subtle so you might have missed that tendency… :unamused: :blush: ).

tell them life isnt about creating acomplishments. tell them that the very fact that they are depressed and talking to you right no was determined from birth, tell them it is also determined for them to leave your office happy. if that doesnt work prescribe them some mescalin.

Lmao, Galactic…

Or you could tell them that even if they had managed to accomplish great things, in the end time will grind all human endeavor to dust, and in the end it was all for nothing.

Um, okay…maybe that won’t help their depression much. :unamused:

I think I believe this now. Especially for myself. But also for a former friend of mine with whom I would spend hours on the phone just to try to convince her everything will work out for the best. To no avail. She is your typical “jouissance”. I think the best thing to do for a good friend is to just listen—literally (of course, with my occasional mild grunts to let her know I’m not nodding off as she drones on).

Lmao???

Laughing
My
Ass
Off

Imho, you must be new to the internet. ttyl.
Lol

pmsl

Pissed myself laughing :laughing:

Tell the patients, just like they feel they might have wasted the more beautiful part of their life achieving nothing, there is still another part left to explore and if they seem disinterested, tell them they don’t have to live for themselves, they can help someone else not make the same mistake and waste the more beautiful part of their life and voila, they will feel that they never wasted the more beautiful part of their life when they help them and they would also have the lesser beautiful part to live yet and look forward to doing that.

I heard somewhere, those are lucky people who have someone else’s pain to share and alleviate. Big words! Whatever…

Although my motivation for starting this thread was pure (and self-serving…or other-serving I guess), and I am thankful for some of the insightful points many of you have made.

Having said that, the responses also drive home an important theme that was raised in TUM’s suicide thread (I think de trop alluded to it most effectively): Despite our best intentions, most people’s advice is ineffective for numerous reasons (we touched upon a few above), but one of those is most people’s inability to TRULY empathize. Empathy is NOT sympathy. It’s NOT feeling someone else’s pain (which I used to think it was, till one of the most important names in “emotion work” set me straight years ago). It’s trying to understand what it must be like to truly be in another’s shoes. People who can do that are able to extricate themselves from their own past, experiences, biases, feelings, and perspectives.

Doing so allows you to see that what works for YOU may not be at all appropriate/helpful to OTHERS. Or, you might have some very useful INFORMATION but what the other person needs is for someone just to LISTEN. Or you might feel ANGER at hearing what someone has experienced and try to get them to feel anger as well, when what they really need to do is process GRIEF. And so on and so on.

Please don’t take this as criticism or judgment or lack of gratitude for your feedback–I found much of it very insightful. I just think this thread really highlights what I’m trying to say in this post–and you can see many examples of this played out again and again in this site and anywhere else on the web or in real life. But most people fail to realize it.

Yep - I remember thinking that too when he posted to TUM - That I’d posted just like a ‘Dad’ and not really done much good beyond maybe just saying ‘someone cares wether you live or die’, but surely, if you knew much more about the patient and the situation, couldn’t you formulate some better ‘advice’ that was applicable to him her…? And a way of putting it so that they’d LISTEN…?

What should we do to help solve people’s problems…? (Or at least help them solve their own.) I wanna Know…! Selfishly of course - so I can keep my wife happy with the washing up, and my child in school… :evilfun:

Okay - you’ve empathized, you’ve worn his/her shoes - what then… Isn’t the idea to get them to go the shop and get some new ones, or at least slap some new soles on the old…?

Very good questions, Tab. Wish I had the perfect answer. You are right that getting to know the client and his/her situation/history/etc. will assist in determining the “best” approach. And sometimes that approach is just LISTENING, accepting, not judging, not talking, just BEING THERE 100% for that person. Advice is rarely helpful, unless it’s practical advice or providing information about, say, resources available or things like that.

But it all depends on what the problem is. For something like, say, phobias, certain techniques (namely CBT) are quite good for a number of people (not nearly as many people as they would have you think). Sometimes we do very “directive” therapy such as Gestalt or “Emotion Focused” techniques/therapy (EFT), which are extremely powerful and bring the “mind” and “emotions” together to produce insight and/or change.

But when it comes to changing the underlying personality structure (or ego or whatever you want to call it), no “advice” will work. Short-term methods will NOT make much of a dent. It requires TIME and CONSISTENT self-exploration to arrive at that moment of “BANG!!!” when things start to make sense (insight). But they can’t just make sense intellectually, which is why advice and talking about things usually doesn’t work. It has to CONNECT emotionally and RESONATE with the person. Now, the Gestalt or EFT actually DOES bring about such things faster than, say most psychodynamic approaches. However, Interpersonal Therapy is a psychodynamic approach and is short-term (about 12-16 weeks) and CAN be quite effective–it changes how we interact with others and helps us understand why we act/react as we do (and why others do that with us). It’s sort of a two-pronged approach: insight and guidance on how to interact socially (and to understand social factors’ impact on us, and vice versa), which is often at the root of many problems. Again, if done on an intellectual level, not that much will change (at least not for long), but when the person CONNECTS emotionally with what is happening in therapy, then change can occur.

So how does that answer your questions, Tab? Not very helpful practically speaking, I know. But let’s return to empathy. If someone truly empathizes with the other, then they have a better chance at knowing which approach is best (usually, a sympathetic, LISTENING ear is best, especially when all else fails). The problem is that this only works for a while before you become frustrated over hearing the same things over and over and seeing no change in the person. That’s when you can try all of the things people have mentioned above, being careful to see which you think is the best ones, and making sure not to assume that YOU know which it is; understanding that you’ll probably be off base in your choices at first, which is why it’s usually good just to BE THERE till the person is able to process such things (anyone who has suffered from severe depression or anxiety can write about how their cognitive functioning is often impaired, along with their motivation). And remember that in the case of depression, the person has probably been told or has felt that others are saying “JUST GET OVER IT,” even from the best intentioned individuals, and such messages (whether spoken or implied or even incorrectly inferred) only add to the guilt and shame and worthlessness that the person probably already feels, which only worsens their state, of course (though there is the TINY minority who might actually respond positively to such demands).

It’s not the most positive outlook on improvement, but it’s realistic. And being realistic helps prevent you (the person trying to help) from stressing yourself out over things that you may not be able to change (though in my original question about people regretting their life, the idea that people responded with of getting the person to change his/her philosophical outlook might help too, since it’s another way of arriving at some kind of insight, as long as they can connect with what they are reading/hearing about the philosophy–finding religion also helps, not b/c it gives insight but b/c it gives a sense of hope and understanding and “meaning”…again, all of this needs to be done at the pace and in the way that the person is most comfortable with).

psyche, also tell your patients this - There is no such thing as the end. If death follows life then life must follow death and so because there is no escaping death there can be no escaping life either. Therefore it makes sense to give meaning to one’s life right here in the now as there is no such thing as, “This is the end my friend…” The only end in the sense of becoming eternal would be granted to those who God feels deserved it I feel.

BJ,

Nice way of thinking about things and I think it does give comfort to some people. I just had a discussion with a colleague (he’s a philosophical psychiatrist) who discussed similar things (more like “you can’t ever NOT exist b/c we cannot destroy matter entirely, so a part of us always exists as part of the universal energy/matter…” or something like that). I was sort of following that (I personally thought it sounded a lot like Jung’s “collective unconscious” (I’m not doing justice to my colleague’s words)) , but another colleague (psychologist) afterwards commented on how difficult such thinking would be for most people to accept–it’s not “grounded” in anything they can connect with.

Also, the part about God’s selection would be a huge turn off for many people, of course.

I personally like Dawkin’s “selfish gene” theory, which gives anyone with kids (or at least any genetically related family members who will likely procreate) some comfort, since our genes are “immortal” as long as they keep getting passed on. But again, not everone will take comfort with the same perspectives.

I’ve mentioned this before, this idea of mine which I think your philosophical psychiatrist STOLE :slight_smile: and re-phrased it. Anyway…This idea is, that once we die, the physical elements go to the physical environment and the mental go to the Higher Consciousness, or Mind or God. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed in our world therefore, thoughts being some form of energy cannot be destroyed either and so must exist as a huge database of information somewhere, perhaps as The Book of Life. In this way, all our past actions are recorded and fate happens accordingly in the current life and in the re-births.

Hi Beena. I also have the thoughts that since energy cannot be created nor destroyed that thoughts are immortal since thought are energy. What if there were a civilization with insturmentation advanced enough they could pick up our thoughts?