This Rock Is Heavier Than You Thought!

Skeptic: Can God make a rock so heavy He can’t lift it?

Standard Response: No, because “A rock so heavy God can’t lift it” is an impossible object, and God cannot do the impossible.

Now, the whole reason in asking the skeptical question is to establish that omnipotence is incoherent. The standard response is only true if we presume omnipotence to be coherent, and instantiated in God. So, someone giving the standard answer is making a circular argument.

Hmm, (I love this part of disscusions it always makes me laugh) Drum rollllllll … Define lift would you? How do you mean lift? LOL

Seriously though there are many ways to be able to lift anything… I can lift a 2 ton boulder can you? Sure you can, heck a 5 yr old can.

Then explain to me how an omnipotent as well as omniscient being can be personal? how on earth can such a thing poses reactive qualities? what is it “reacting” to? itself? it’s is logically impossible… and since god can’t do the impossible… he can not exist…

I think most people tend to forget that omnipotence can be a relative term. What would appear as omnipotent to us will not to some other species or creature or even our own descendents. So while a God is omnipotent to us it may not be in another part of the universe. It does not detract from its level of abilities, it does not make the god any less omnipotent to us.

Omnipotence literally means “all power”… not “relative power”… I’m sorry but I have NEVER herd of omnipotence being used as a relative term…

Me neither, but it’s amazing how flexible definitions can get when something obviously doesn’t make any sense.

Well we are pretty young as a species so there are pretty good chances that there is a lot we don’t know, can’t know and can’t imagine. What we think of that would be omnipotent would not be to other creatures or species throughout the universe. All powerfull is a term we use. Putting it against such a vastness is ridiculous. Trying to use terms to encompass all of the universe and its possibilities is pretty egotisical. We use the term omnipotent being for a creature that so outstrips us that we can have no possible clue about its limits. Our omnipotent might just be pretty small compared to what is out there beyond our grasp, but, it does not diminish our omnipotent definitions.

You are speaking of our understanding of possibilities… not our understanding of omnipotence… if it turns out that it is in fact possible to create a square circle then naturally this would be possible for an omnipotent being to do as well…

Um, Mad Man, you DID notice I was refuting the standard response, right? And that that’s the significant part here? That the standard response to this old question fails? I can’t see why you’d want to turn this into another “Let’s throw 500 random questions at theists all at once” threads again, considering nobody is attempting to defend theism.
This is some significant stuff here.

I’ve got a better question: Can God make 1+1=3?

A lot of people can’t stand the idea of God not being omnipotent. I say you don’t have to be all-powerful to be the Supreme Being; just powerful enough to rule the universe.

Hell, I’d rather worship a limited and logical God than an omnipotent and impossible God.

A square circle hmm, I don’t have the theory but, I assume it is possible mathematically at least. Ahhh haah! I do know how to make a square circle… Oh thank god for stupid bar tricks done by university students… Durn near forgot that one.

God is omnipotent eh… alright well;

Can God not be God?, no…

Ok then! He’s not God! I’ve got you now you snake in the grass.

Omnipotence means exactly what it says. Without limit. period. Impossible does not apply to omnipotence. Impossible is attributing anthropomorphic qualities to a not-human concept/entity.

The answers are all invalid, because the questions are invalid.

We declare it is with out limit but, what is our limit? If we don’t know the limit how can we declare something is without limit? We can’t… You just made an invalid statement… check your card at the door you have not had enough brewskis yet.

You are absolutely right… I was out of line… I humbly ask your pardon for my outburst.

No offence intended… but that makes no sense… if omnipotence is to mean unlimited (in an absolute way) power… then questions such as “could god remove himself from existence alltogether” would be valid… and the answer would have to be yes.

Or to the more basic… Can god lie? can god be evil? can god be irrational?

this would monkey wrench every single religios doctrin… since there is always a chance that god was simply lying about this or that in the bible…

or worse maybe he changes his mind and sends everyone to hell all of a sudden… ect…

God (or any other omnipotent being) must nessisarily be limited by the peramiters of his identity… or become an utterly fluid notion of which absolutely nothing can be known…

Kris and Mad Man P,

You’re both missing the point. Limit is a description of human capability. Omnipotence is without limit. The questions of limit being applied to omnipotence is to attempt to apply anthropomorphic conditions which is a falsity. Questions of limit have no meaning in the face of omnipotence.

Step back and look at it again.

Non-Standard Response: God could have made the universe to be one big solid rock filling the universe. But what would be the point of that?

my real name

Yeah! That's closer to the coherent answer I had in mind than the "rock so big is an impossible object" response.  To get us completely there, what would you say if I asked,

Couldn’t He fill the universe with rock, and then make the universe a little big bigger so he could move it?

It’s that reference to chronology that completely undoes the rock paradox, in a much more satisfying way.

Seen that way, God could make things such that He can either be able to move the rock or not be able to. :smiley:

So um did another creature other than humans come up with the word omnipotence? I was under the impression humans came up with both words and both definitions. :smiley:

My point is if we don’t know our limits we can’t set limits or non limits on either word. If we say omnipotence is with out limits then what are the limits on limitations? How can we know what is without limits if we have no measuring stick?

We may see no limits to what we think of as omnipotence but, that does not mean there are none. We can’t actually use the word as you do for we know nothing about it and we do not know our limits.

Look at it this way. Lets compare an ant to a human. The ant can’t even perceive us. When it bites our flesh it is not biting a specific creature it is biting a mine of delicious food or irritating ground. It does not even see us as seperate from the ground it sees us as part of it. What would its reaction be to us if we could prove we are a superior creature and we show the ant everything we have and can do?

That ant would see us as omnipotent, would it not? but we are not. Could you argue with the ant proving we are not omnipotent, easier than proving we are? I doubt it. but knowing you my friend, you would have a great time trying. Just don’t go all omnipotent and drown the poor disbelieving ant in drooling moose. :laughing: