Hey, I’m new here, and for my first topic, I was wondering about what you guys think about Deism.
I can get behind the idea. The physical universe is subject to the laws of nature, and laws imply a lawmaker.
On the other hand, it seems clear that God does not intervene in our world - after all, look at the problem of evil.
Hey I just started posting last week. I sometimes wish someone would show me a really good reason not to believe in Deism because I just don’t see evil as a problem as most people do. Why is it a problem for you?
I’m sure you can agree that evil - in the many forms it may take on, such as greed, corruption, violence, or even natural disasters - makes the lives of those who bear it to be quite difficult. You know the old question, “Why do bad things happen to good people?” Well, it’s probably because that God just doesn’t care about us.
Hi rengeki and jam2001,
Welcome to the Religion Forum. Deism seems to be a default position for people. I have been called a Deist. As you may know there are a variety of deist positions. Einstein is considered to have been a deist by some. Even Stephen Hawking has been called a deist because he has envisioned a law of physics preceding everything. I got the part about God being indifferent to the suffering of its creatures. Perhaps God is not a moral being at all. There are so many possibilities. Anyway, what you mean by deism exactly?
Well, what I mean by deism is that the universe might have been created by a God, and indeed, that all the mechanisms in it (such as gravity or evolution) were of His doing. Other then that, though, He does not interfere with our affairs.
I suppose what I’m more concerned with are the implications of deism. If it is true, then that means that there have been no true prophets and no miracles. Most religious folk would simply be barreling towards an uncertain end - there might not be a heaven or hell, and if there was, what could we do about it? Evil exists, and it’s all because God doesn’t care.
On the other hand, you could challenge God’s omnipotence. Perhaps He is truly good, yet not all-powerful. In the words of Homer Simpson, “Could God make a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?”
So, at the end of the day, I guess my view on deism is one of disbelief in the traditional view of God being some all-perfect being, because He, by all counts, doesn’t appear to be.
Sure bad things happen to good people. When a hurricane devastates an town is that evil? Its not if you are an air mass that needs to relieve its energy. But the people call it evil because it is not useful to them. When a chicken is killed for my supper is that evil? My belly doesn’t think so but I know the chicken did not choose it. Once again its my perception that counts. When the USA used shock and awe against Iraqui civilians people in America cheered as thousands of innocents died. If that is evil now it wasn;t seen as such then. When we exterminated the indigineous american population it was proclaimed in churches as manifest destiny and Gods wil. I doubt the native americans saw it that way. For me deism means pure being.
jam2001 - I think your perception is clouding my point a bit. What I’m trying to say is that there are some fundamental, objective evils in this world. I certainly don’t think that the eradication of Native Americans was ever a good thing, and I don’t think you do, either. Whatever people thought of it back then is irrelevant; it doesn’t change the fact that this widespread genocide was a terrible act. And it is because of such acts, and the continual propagation of such acts, that I think I’m at least a little justified in saying that evil exists. And it is because of this evil that it becomes apparent that God doesn’t really care about us, and by extension, does not interfere with our world. Hence, deism.
Rengeki I do not mean to cloud your point. I needed to know for sure if evil or pain is why you think God does not care for us. But first let me ask if you think God does not care for us does that mean he has made an error or do you think caring is not part of him? Do you think as many do that he is simply a watchmaker? Since we are essentially defining deism, do you think that creation came to be from a lesser demagoue or do you think that by definition God must be ininite and supreme in everything. I need to establish these things for clear communication. And when you say evil existing, do you mean seemingly unnecessary pain and suffering, a living being, or a will in the heart of a person?
jam2001, I cannot, for the most part, make claims to the properties of God. He could very well be a watchmaker, implying that he is neither all-good nor all-powerful (as I doubt watchmakers are such). I have no idea if God is a supreme being or a lesser deity - I just think that, regardless of His actual status, he doesn’t care for us.
And by evil, I think I largely refer to the will of an individual.
Regenki since your definition of evil is largely the effects of human will but does include the random effects of nature it is one of perception. The idea of seeing evil existing temporarily ln human will is the christian perspective. Most christians will reaffirm the perspective problem by saying that God works in mysterious ways. Meaning that good will inevitably come from this evil but you and I simply cannot see it now. However I like that your question contains something deeper than that. You are not simply asking why is there evil but where does it come from? But you answered your own question when you say that evil is largely in the will of an idividual. Christians want to expel that from themselves and make it the effects of an evil angel, i.e. Satan, or you can accept that people see it in themselves and choose it. The latter part was recognized well enough by Neitzche with the will to power but I think that is only half the answer. I recently read a very good book on the subject entitled “My Heart is on the Left Side”. The author details how evil comes from the individual in a quite sensible way.