Is it so hard to believe really? I understand that you are fuming over the negligent use of the term “theism”, the lack of specifics, that rampant generalizations…on that you have a point. But other than that there are basis for criticism which has been raised against religious beliefs since the days of Plato.
Do you believe that reason is held in high regards by believers? I don’t believe that they do, nor that they should, for reason is not a very faithful thing, and religious belief cannot afford doubt for a prolonged time. One of the reasons that rationalists and otherwise very intelligent people have been killed by not just christians but even, as in the case of Socrates, pagans.
I have known many very intelligent persons who have religious beliefs, but only because they maintain their beliefs separated from their intellectual prowess. Theism is about control and our intelligence is a treath to theism, and I use this as wide as possible, because it cast doubt by being a reminder of the exceptional.
The problem of evil, the meaningless suffering of innocent people, is a problem raised by intelligence and resolved only by faith.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough omar; I was disappointed with both sides of the conversations assumptions regarding the subject.
Oh, and just for clarity; I’m not actually fuming, but the theism bit is a personal peeve of mine.
Just as my wife’s is when people say Geography instead of Geology, and then say that it’s all Science when called on it.
Also, I disagree with this.
If you try to force certain perspectives together, then yes, I would agree.
But if you do not, then this is not a problem that isn’t solved by simple intelligent consideration to make reasonable theological possibilities.
The choice to believe it, yes that will be faith, but the problem of evil is resolvable without faith perfectly well.
Several who have no faith at all have reasoned evil’s purpose if a monotheistic god should exist in some way like the Christian God.
I understand being precise, but precision avoids the meat of the argument. Yes they should mean “Christianity”, yes, they should even go as far as naming the Church and specific pastor. Why not? Once we have laid the premise we might as well carry it to a logical conclusion. But I think that while there are differences, that something must exist in common, otherwise, what would be the point of the word “theism”?
— If you try to force certain perspectives together, then yes, I would agree.
O- What happens when you don’t force them together? A diminuitions of God’s role in the universe. God’s idea of loving might be different than ours= this leaves us with a God that we cannot understand, just as we do not understand a tornado ripping one house apart and leaving the house next to it untouched. Or maybe God is very loving (Alyoshka) but not actually omnipotent= all the prayer in the world may not help you in a difficult situation. Might as well pray to the President.
My point is that the solution is well known, but for some reason or another, unacceptable to your average believer. As you can see in that Strobel film about the case for faith, people could have taken this intelligent consideration, this reasonable theological possibility, but chose instead to sacrifice their immediate understanding and their trust in whatever they consider God, which nonetheless remains loving and omnipotent, however forced these perspectives are.
— The choice to believe it, yes that will be faith, but the problem of evil is resolvable without faith perfectly well.
Several who have no faith at all have reasoned evil’s purpose if a monotheistic god should exist in some way like the Christian God.
O- For those that have no faith, what can the word “evil” mean? And if an act or event HAS a PURPOSE, then how can it be really “evil”?
That has nothing to do with this subject really.
That was over in the rant thread, and in this thread…it’s not really needed I don’t think.
This is a post to all Atheists in question, and I was simply remarking at my amazement at the majority of types of responses and thinking that was being established from all sides in this thread on the topic.
Depending on the view points, it could be a complete non-issue.
In some cases, sure.
Hard to say without something to examine the dogma of; of which several countless hundred (probably thousand) exist.
My only real point was that if one tries to force certain perspectives together, then I agree, things are difficult to logic reason for.
I’m still examining this phenomena personally.
It’s interesting to me how some concepts are held to so tightly when they do not appear to hold a large level of impact on the core theology of the Biblical Christianity, as an example of such.
I assume, but do not know, that it must be related to some form of necessity for comprehension of the justice of the control by proxy; which all deities are.
Somehow, I imagine, the requirement is needed for some form of satisfactory retribution to be enjoyed by the holder of the belief.
If not, then the logic of the concepts such as these truly would be baffling.
Either vantage of evil, as an entity or morality, has been justified in thought exercise.
Evil, as an entity, can best be described as that which is against the will of Righteous.
If one is considering such in the Christian thought, then this would be Satan versus God.
However, in the Jewish world, Evil would be man’s corruption of his own heart (not soul; which didn’t exist) without direct impact from Satanel, as Satanel was an agent of God, in a way…but not fully, as a tester.
So…again…I think it depends on how it’s viewed by what culture.
As a morality, it’s more something that indicates counter culture to accepted morality.
In America, for instance, this is largely based (but gradually changing) on the Christian Conservative concepts of Righteous and Good morals, thereby establishing that which is not these as Evil.
Typically, Evil in this form is linked to a religious view of morality that has large root in the culture; as the above example.
If a culture has little religion at all, then Evil is typically a term that refers to an extreme level of immoral acts that greatly damage the life and well being of common citizens.
Like I said, depends which way we are looking at things.
I think that Christians are delusional. Just because one has been told something does not mean that it is correct. One of the reason that I think people are not willing to look at their beliefs is because they fear that they will lose their belief. They do not want to lose their belief because it is more enjoyable to think that god exists and that one will go to heaven when one dies. They think that if they lose their belief they will go to hell. Believing in something can be pleasant. Aside from that I think that Christianity is unfounded in its assertions. There is simply no reason to believe that your god is the god or that any god which can be known by humans can be defined. Most of Christianity is motivated by the need for most people to feel accepted. They do this by agreeing with their parents and the people around them. It is to unpleasant for people to disagree with another person so they just conform.
And the rationalists can on occasion fear that if they started to trust intuition they would go to hell - make big mistakes, look silly, go insane. Many religious people question their beliefs. There are whole traditions - literary, practice centered - dealing with dark nights of the soul, and doubt, and the problem of evil, and loss of faith. Outside the Christian tradition all sorts of complicated relationships with authority and deities are possible, both taken by individuals and even by groups. This also happens within Christianity, though most outsiders imagine a cartoon figure Christian and make this the rule. Most people buy what authorities tell them. Think of the number of people who actually think that the US is a democracy or that a choice between repubs and dems covers the range. Or that getting this car or those sneakers will make them a better person. I see ludicrous association and failed analysis by many, perhaps most, theists AND atheists.
“Faith” is unfounded, yes. All Christians realize this, and yet we believe. Maybe because we want it to be true, maybe because it is. We can’t know.
Personally, i believe god saves everyone, and noone goes to hell. Yes, we should act morally, and do what is right, but nothing we do here will get us in or out of heaven.
Conformity may be a reason for many Christians now, but if you look to the persecution of Christians in the past, clearly it was not about conformity.
Yes, we do not truly know what god is like, but we believe what we believe. For example, i think evolution is true, and that god made it happen. If you go back far enough, even science hits a point where something HAD to be created from nothing. (you believe in the big bang theory? what caused it? what caused that? go back far enough there is simply no possible answer.
It’s amazing to me that people actually think that to believe in something like Christianity you therefore must forfeit the countless and amazing successes of man in the fields of reason and science.
It’s more amazing that people automatically assume that the extreme dogmatic form of Christianity is the absolute by which all Christians must adhere to even though there are several varying forms of Christianity widely popular within the religion.
it kills me to know that imagination is the most important thing and that there are so many people that think math or science are more important- they dont understand that imagination is made from unimagineably incredible math lol- that’s why i love my imagination and only feel sorry and try to help many others with less imagination- i say this- RIGIDITY IS STUPIDITY-
i firmly believe in a creator/creators and love- definitely not an atheist thank God!
I wan’t there at the big bang so God or various gods could definatley exist for all I know but religion it’s self was invented by man because humans fear what they can’t control thus religion was invented so people could console themselves primarily about the fear of death and in order to explain science back in ancient and medieval times eg-how does it rain? The gods make it rain.
I dont believe that Christians are stupid people, they just use God to explain the issues of life and the universe that science does not have the power to answer, and it could be entirley true.
However, the problem I have with most Christians isn’t that they are stupid and brainwashed, the problem is they are hipocritical, kiss arse manipulators who no longer feel inspired by their so called “religion” but fobb it off as a chore.
You can all go on as much as you want about how wonderful God is and you Christians are such wonderful people and that bring the whole “oh whats wrong with us being moral and helping starving children overseas?” You don’t need religion to be moral and help staving children overseas you Christian dickheads, you just need humility, empathy and compassion and if you find those things in your religion then thats great but dont be assholes and assume that everyone who isn’t religious is saying its bad to be moral or that you are indefinatley right about the existance of God just because over 3000 years ago a burning bush told Moses that there was one. Doesnt the bible say “judge not, lest ye be judged?”
Summary: Religion is manmade, THIS IS A FACT YOU ALL KNOW IT IS SO DONT SAY IT"S NOT. God is both possibly real or not real. Christians, pull your head out of your arse and get off of your pedestal.
