To be a martyr

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

My argument is that Islamic funcdamentalists (and anyone else) who uses (or abuses) the term ‘martyr’ to justify taking innocent life is misguided and irresponsible with their use of the term.

To be a martyr has never been conceived od as taking the lives of others to prove a religious point.

A true martyr would lay down HIS OWN LIFE for his cause…and NOT take the lives of others.

Through history, the term has become abused. And worryingly, misunderstood. There is NO similarity between the religious martyrs of the ancient age who would suffer persecution but respond as pacifists and the aggressive martyrs who began to appear later on.

2

True.

I’m waiting for a heated discussion so I can show you the true face of Islam.

3

why wait. there is no guaruntee that there will be a heated discussion. If you study or just read, the early threads on this board, you will see that this has been discussed before. At lengths mind you. so go and show us the true face of Islam.

4

Indeed.

Does the true face of Islam need a heated discussion in order to manifest itself?

5

Ok I wish to be enlightened. Show me why the muslim fundamentalist terrorists are not exactly that, muslim fundamentalists. Can you show us how these terrorists are not following the Quran in their waging of Jihad. Are they misinterpting the text? If they are I would like you to show us which specific texts and how they misinterpt them.

6

Islam is very clear on suicide:

Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

However, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Actions are but by intentions, and each person will only have that which he intended.” (Hadith)

So can a man kill himself for the sake of Allah? Yes, because he sacrifices his own life to Allah. But when is it permissible to do so?

The prophet clearly said:
Narated By Ibn 'Umar : During some of the Ghazawat of Allah’s Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah’s Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Futher the Quran says: " If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient. Sura An-Nahl [16:126-126]"

Now, the Palesitinians (we are talking about the Israeli and Palestinian conflict aren’t we?) are afflicted with harsh measures and killings. So the Palestinians has the right the retaliate with the same manner. However it’s better to be patient.

If a Palestinians kill himself and kills Israeli soldies on duty. He, surely, is a martyr (e.g. Sheikh Ahmad Yassin).

For further question please reply!

7

I’m sorry, but are you saying that suicide bombers have the right to target civilians? THAT’S the atrocity that needs to be defended. If the bombers were just going up against IDF targets, that would be one thing, and it would almost be a legitimate form of combat. But bombing civilians? Does the Quran really condone that?

8

Wait for a second…seems to me you didn’t read my previous reply.

If there is war you can only kill soldiers (e.g. IDF).

But if Israel transgres, which they do, we can retaliate in the manner. Indeed, we codemn the killing of innocent civilians. Because God says we should be patient. However, we have the right to retaliate in the same manner (but patientness is better)

9

Are you contradicting yourself here?

In what manner is it permissable to retaliate? In targeting civilians? Because that’s the main strategy used by Palestinian insurgents. What I’m asking is, is it always immoral to target Israeli civilians, or are you trying to excuse this behavior by saying, “they started it”?

10

So the Quran says if we kill your civilians you have the right to kill ours? Is that basicly it?

If we rape your women you also I assume have the right to rape ours in a state of war?

Islam then might I ask differenciates itself how as a religion in contrast to barbarism, morally? The morality of Islam is dependant upon another mans actions in this case the Israelis. It is not a moral absolute. By the logic you present your basicly allowed to do to someone else whatever they inflict upon you.

What are you patient for? For god to murder our “innocent civilians” instead of you guys taking action into your own hands? And not to mention that you are saying that you have “the right” to retaliate in the same manner; basicly saying that you have the right to murder our “innocent civilians” but god tells you its better to be pacient, yet does not condemn but gives you the right to do so.

A very significant and fundamental difference between Islam and Judaism we have here. One religion claims it is never ok to murder or as you put it “kill innocent civilians”, the other you have just let us know how it stands.

My conclusion based upon your reply is that the terrorists are basicly in accordance with Islam and just a bit impatient, while the rest of Islam, that is the peaceful people like you just have patience, correct?

11

Hadj

Thanks for your the clear postulation of your views.

I can see your point…killing soldiers for territory in Israel is- to a degree- morally justifiable.

But what about when killing occurs not for territory- but for RELIGION. Let’s be clear…in Israel…the war is about TERRITORY .

Let us turn to suicide bombing where territory is not at issue.
September 11.

This so called act of ‘martyrdom’ was NOT MARTYRDOM in a true, real, sense…not according to the Islamic passages you have descrivbed.

And yet no public figure seems to have addressed this quandary.

Terrorists are STILL allowed to present and masquerade themselves as RELIGIOUS MARTYRS when in reality, they are IRRELIGIOUS THUGS.

Christianity does not condone martyrdom when iit takes the life of another…and nor does Islam.

Moreover…death is IMPOSED ON A MARTYR…by external forces…not volunteered and self imposed.

Reaction welcome.

12

Not true gavtmcc the United States has forces in Saudi Arabia. That is Osama Bin Ladens main justification for the attack on the United States. He says since the Americans have forces in Muslim lands especialy the most holy one they are justified to have a Jihad against us. According to what Hadj said givin that Americans have forces in Muslim land and have probably somewhere in our history killed some Muslim civilians then these terrorists are acting out of their faith to Islam. In the Islamic religious sense based on Hadjs response alone, they are Martyrs.

13

You got the message totally wrong! It’s my fault I didn’t show you all related Quranic verses. This one is very important!!:

"[b]And no burdened soul can bear another's burden[/b], and if one heavy laden crieth for (help with) his load, naught of it will be lifted even though he (unto whom he crieth) be of kin. Thou warnest only those who fear their Lord in secret, and have established worship. He who groweth (in goodness), groweth only for himself, (he cannot by his merit redeem others). Unto Allah is the journeying." Ayah [18] Fatir

This verse directly says you can’t kill innocent people.

However the other verses which says…punish them like they have punished you…has many regulation. This rule implies mostly for criminality. If will ask a scholar for a detailed view of this issue. Please bear with me.

14

I’m sorry hadj but why do you claim these verses to be related?

They don’t seem to be near each other I would assume judging by where you pulled each one out.

From my reading some of the Quran and from reading about the Quran I found that durring the times that Muhhamad was at peace he talked about peace and durring the times of war he talked about war. I would like to see more consistancy then you present.

15

To be more accuratly, both are not present in one chapter but in different chapters. But it doesn’t matter how “close” they are. Still, they are the word of God (…says me).

Well, it seems to me you didn’t read the Quran at all. The Quran is God’s word, read some verses and you’ll be convinced that it isn’t Muhammed’s word. Never in the Quran does the I refers to Muhammed. It’s God’s word.

The quran is a way of life. Many verses in the Quran resembles the situation of the prophet. So if there was a war God would give Muhammed some verses about war. If he got an issue with his family, he would get verses about his family. If there was a juridical issue, God gave Muhammed verses concerning juridical issues. etc. etc.

16

One could say that people watching events filtered through homegrown TV have no idea of the real impact of war and the bombing of their cities.

One could say that such people would feel such bombing and invasion justified and “right”.

One could say that such people would, with the assistance of government spin, develop rationalisations which allow them to think that it’s bad when other people go to war, but okay when they do it.

17

Indeed, Adam, one could.

Unfortunately, though, your perspective somewhat misses the point.

The point of theis thread was to prove that such people who use the term ‘martyr’ to justify their actions abuse the term.

18

i’d completely agree with that claim. the notion of suicide in laying down one’s life for a cause is completely ludricous. an unwillingness to submit to one’s enemies and thus (in the process) dying for one’s cause (not killing oneself) is a more likely characteristic for a true martyr which is the exact opposite of what a suicide bomber claims to do/does.

Hadj: are you a Muslim? because you seem to know the Ouran well

19

Yes, I think the problem is that people are mislead and/or misguided quite often.

Forget about the death part for a moment, and consider two people. Ali from Palestine, and Bob from Kansas.

Ali sees his cousin’s village crushed by tanks, and sees his friends roughed up now and then by the IDF. Heck, he might even see friends or relatives killed by the IDF. Or perhaps he merely hears talk of such things from friends. Maybe his government tells him the IDF sponsors terrorism against Palestinians, is preparing to use biological weapons against them, et cetera. The voices he hears from various sources tell him he is right to attack “them”. His intent is to get out there with a loaded gun and kill some people.

Bob watches the news. His government tells him the Middle East is a war zone. He is told there are people there who develop, buy, sell, and use biological weapons. He sees explosions, tanks, gunfire. The voices he hears from various sources tell him he is right to attack “them”. His intent is to get out there with a loaded plane and bomb some people.

One of them expects that he very well may die. The other does not. However, their intent toward their fellow humans is basically the same. They want to kill the bad guys, for the sake of those they consider the good guys. One of them, untrained and not too well versed in either tactics or any laws of war, maybe even with limited access to information and a skewed view of “the bad guys”, may pick a cafe or bus and blow up some dozen or so civilians. One of them, possibly educated, schooled somewhat in tactics and the laws of war, may drop a bomb or two on an air-raid shelter (as in Desert Storm) and kill 400 innocent people.

Intent? Big deal. Who cares? Either way, people die. People are told things, people believe things, and in the end people die.

Those deaths should be avoided. I believe the Koran says that the least harm we do to any person, we do to all of humanity. When possible, such harm is to be avoided. How can it be avoided? Stop listening to governments! Governments do not exist to serve us with pure altruism. They are not staffed by infallible robots. Governments consist of weak, greedy individuals, who work for their own benefit.