This thread caught my attention, of course as it will probably catch manys attention. But for me, because I am African American, my first thoughts were, “Uh oh”.
But anyway, to answer your question, hate is such a horrible thing. I mean, for a long time after being enlightened to the effects of much of what the “white man” has done, I did have some resentment towards those that produced the causes that ultimately created the effects that derived. But now I see all exists for a reason, and no matter how evil or bad our actions are, we will be punished for them. As an African American, it is difficult to live as someone not identified with race, because the lack of understanding of my position is evident within many of those in my race. They feel I should hate the white man, and can only resort to feeling like I think I am above or better than those who do if I dont. But its inevitable that these thoughts of hatred only produce more hatred, and if I can stop this process within myself and the few I come in contact with, then so be it.
But to answer more so in conjuction with your question, I do believe that the white man who did these horrible things in the past such as all this repression through slavery, lynching, etc., does produce some merit for an individual of African-American decent to be upset at him, because there are invariably many effects of these occurences. But I also believe that its pointless.
The “white man” seems to have the talent for fucking things up and then finding solutions for the fuck-ups. I’m thinking of the movie Monsters Ball here. That movie was the greatest tribute to white people ever.
My only complaint is that white culture has created some of the worst music in history. Basically from 600AD to 1940AD with a few exceptions white music has sucked.
FtheNaysayers: “Oh please…You do realize that musical taste is almost completely subjective.”
Well of course I realize that. That’s why I can say a statement like that with such certainty, because its my opinion. I stand by what I said. White culture hasn’t made music that I would consider good until just very recently.
PS. If you want me to define what I mean by white culture I am willing to do that. However it would seem to be a waiste since my statement really isn’t that important.
Well that’s good. I’ve met a quite a few people (and even myself in the past) who thought that there was objectively “good and bad” music. It is a silly belief.
Being a white man with no racial, ethnic or sexual prejudice (I admit to massive cultural prejudice) I do find myself being blamed for an awful lot of stuff (in particular generalising prejudice, possibly the most bizarre irony of being white and male) that isn’t my fault and that has very little to do with me. So be it, I’m not whinging, plenty of other people get blamed for all sorts that isn’t their fault or responsibility, it’s just one of those things…
Why? I think I already know but I’d ask you to explain…
You are. Anyone who lacks hatred is (ethically, psychologically, spiritually) superior to someone who fosters hatred.
I feel that there’s a bitter irony that so many African Americans (or other black people elsewhere) feel the need to maintain a figure of hatred, an icon of disgust, if you like. Perhaps (and only perhaps) it’s an issue of identity, a purely cultural/psychological issue. Because Africans in America are ‘that which once was enslaved but is no longer’ there’s no obvious role to fulfil or position to adopt. There is the echo of the past, that it was once so much worse for African blacks in America, which could easily make contemporary African Americans feel like they’ve failed to accomplish enough given how much worse it was for their ancestors. such feelings of failure (which of course are common to all racial and ethnic groupings in some form) necessitate either a serious self-to-self confrontation or it involves passing the buck.
This is a very mature attitude in my view, but of course I’m young…
1 point that I bring up time and again in this is that black Africans participated in slavery both in the sense that prior to being ‘discovered’ by the Europeans slavery existed all over the African continent and in the sense that when the Europeans came and decided to try to enslave some of the black Africans other black Africans helped them do it because it was an easy way to get rid of enemy groups and tribes. That is, to see even just the enslavement of Africans by Europeans going to central and north America as being something done by white people to black people is not only historically innaccurate, it is part and parcel of this psychology of blame, of seeing oneself as the victim.
It also enables the black race to completely pass the buck for their own despicable actions of that period, which I feel is not only hypocritical, it’s also a sad indictment of just how mean and selfish they can be. This sort of attitude will go precisely nowhere in terms of ‘advancing’ the black race.
Incidentally one could demonstrate the herd, slave mentality that Nietzsche described as being manifest in contemporary racial identity and relations and write quite an interesting piece, if one were so inclined…
I have always loved the Chinese and the Japanese. Currently I am beginning to love also the Spanish and/or Mexican folks.
Never before, with the exception of native american culture, have I witnessed such a perfect conservative practice of living. The social orders which emerge hierarchically within the family and work setting simply astound me. The “group” is like a well-oiled machine.
As a construction worker I see this all the time and inevitably make comparions to the “white” work ethic I see on the jobs. With the exception of a slight degree of quality in their work, which is of a minor significance- only a matter of informing them to the expectations- the sheer volume of the work and the efficiency of their methods far surpasses any average “crew” of white dudes.
Anyway, it comes down to this. Those cultures who are less materialistically and economically evolved will most certainly be of a stronger character. Those races that have achieved industry develop more intellectually and this is passed as the measure of the valuable race type. Bullshit.
As an individual, Pedro might seem dull, but oh how he fits so perfectly and harmoniously within his group. It is the group that makes the culture, not the individual- the white man is drunk on individuality and self expression but can’t last five minutes within his group without becomming engaged in some kind of competition for superiority.
Pedro, on the other hand, knows his place. He is quicker to admit his ignorance in front of his contemporaries where he does not know, and better prided and skilled in teaching what he does know to those who do not.
The Mexicans and Orientals will rule the Earth one day. Mark my words. The final race will be Mexinese. Whitey will be only read about in history books.
Western music is technically more complex. The same goes for its science and philosophy. The whiteman has been working himself really hard. He lacked the ability to intuitively conceive objects essentially. Thus he paid incredible amounts of attention to details, to the perception of objects. He eventually caught up, by systematic construction via deductive modelling, by his intimate physical relationship with objects. The whiteman is traditionally physical, observational and deductive. Even his metaphysics is deeply rooted in his physics. There is a tendency to look up to ying and yang as the highest justification for things, even scientific things, in the intellectual history of China. This is why Chinese science wasn’t capable of yeilding much, for it was too metaphysical. Western thinkers degenerated into the ancient Chinese when their own metaphysics is developed, fully detached from their physical tradition. Both abused their virtues by a way too far. Both have been paying the price, in different ways. The race that’s higher, will be the encompassing race, will be the race which has won inner conflicts so that no single virtue or vice dominate it.
Thinking of the white man, my aprioric intuitions of space and time kick in and force me to give the white man a spatial and temporal determination. Even more, the thought of the white man entails the idea of culture, which is based on a general concept of the white man. To push even farther, I must say that the prototype of the white man in my head is totally immersed in the world, being in the world and sensitive to all that’s goimg on in the world.
But the world is a big place, inhabited by many, not all of them being the white man. There is also the negro-man, the red-man (amerindiens), the yellow-man (asians). Out of all this colourful amalgam, the white man stands out by having down right diabolical will to power.
I cannot imagine the white man other than in relation to the other man. But where as the other man is respectful towards nature and his kin, and is always struggling to gain reconciliation with the world, the white man posits that he is the measure of all things and affirms himself by mutilating the planet that feeds him, desfiguring relations with fellow white men and finally turning the world into an unbearable place.
The white man believes that the white of his skin gives him the right to assess the I as absolute value and subdue everything outside his sphere of conscience. In his “generosity”, he thinks it appropriate to take control of everything that moves and bestow upon it his own mechanicist rules.
The white man is an unsated bastard, always thirsty for more than he has.
Unfortunately, this desire manifests itself mostly on grounds of material possession and social status. Thus, the white man starts war with everyone, even with himself.
Eventually, the white man enters the third millenium. But he is all screwed up. In an attempt to make amends, he uses pompous phrases lke “world peace” and “war against terrorism”, but under the veneer lies the same ambition to expand his petty influence over all there is. He is the same old white man: sentient about his own needs, disrespectful towards nature, leading a numb spiritual life, indifferent to all that is above him.
The latest find of the white man is postmodernism, a gnosis of descentralization, a fragmentarium of reality, where he becomes the only axis mundi. Taking modernity to the limit, he immerses himself more and more into an animalic state of existence.
I hate the white in the white man, because it gives him the impression that the sun shines brighter off him.
The thread title, being “To hate the white man”, made me feel like this was going to be a thread attempting to “call out” and persecute the white man for acts performed in the past. I wasnt exactly sure what to expect when opening this thread.
Not only was it much worse for African Americans in the past, it still is. Even though racism isnt nearly as evident as it was, it definetely still exist. I mean I live in Tennessee, and I see racism all the time. If you are familiar with the self-fulfilling prophecy, we all have biases and judgements about groups of people, and when we encounter those groups within our perception, the stigma is most often expressed. One thing I will note is that in my own experience, when I adopt the usual and admittingly more polite mannerisms of caucasians when encountering them, I get a favorable response; almost as if to be breaking the stereotype, if one exist, in relation to me at least. But there are also many times when I conduct this type of behavior and there is no acceptance among the individuals. It used to bother me, and when you see and feel this type of reaction and you know its just because of your skin color, nothing to do with your character, it really gets to you. It hurts you at first, but you can only hurt for so long and for something so superficial, after awhile you usually get angry, especially if your seeing it consistently. Beyond this, African-Americans contain these same stereotypes for their own race, they expect me to act in conjuction, and when I dont its obvious they are, what I could describe as displeased. I dont consider myself to be “acting white” or better than anyone, but I will admit that caucasians mannerisms are simply more polite than those of African Americans. Especially in the African American male, there is a sizing up that takes place amongst each other consisting of sustained eye contact for just the right amount of time. If you terminate the contact too early, it is an expression of fear, if you hold it too long, your attempting to test the other individuals “gangsta”, ie. you believe your stronger than they are in relation to how altercations are handled in the street. I mean its really an amazing thing, and me being a natural psychologist im constantly analyzing all situations. But really this mentality derives from the type of environments we are bred. Its truly survival of the fittest, for when you live in a society where money is God, and you dont have any, your gonna do what you got to do in order to get it, and a mentality is created out of this. Its not a need to maintain a figure of hatred, its a mode of survival. So, indeed it is a cultural/psychological issue, an identification with past experiences just the same way as anyone derives to who they are. But this mentality in itself derives from years of being in this social position, and as times get worse, the mentality will as well.
Ive been able to live in the hood and live in the suburbs, straddling both sides of the fence. I realize that all of our thinking has a direct effect on our actions, and Ive been through hard times enough to know I dont want to experience them anymore. I realize that the change in my thoughts, inevtiably produces a change in other places. It hurts to see my people suffer because of their mindset, and being in this mindset you dont realize its you who is maintaining it; even more so its not easy to change your whole way of thinking, but me, being able to derive to these more positive thought processes, have an obligation to explain to others the reasons for their own problems and heartaches.
I understand the logic here, and I agree. But one must also realize that the slavery undergone in America was different from the types in Africa. People were indentured slaves. In America, African Americans were stripped of all their heritage, unclothed, literally treated like animals. Forced to not be able to read, and punished if they attempted to. They were slaves for their entire lives, and their children were slaves. The more fair skined slaves, and we all know where they derived from, were used as house slaves, and pitted against the others as to obtaining a higher status, divide and conquer. Believe it or not, this still exist in our society today. There are more things to consider than just a “victim” mentality, but the truth is, African Americans were the victims. You cant downplay the severity of the African American experience, for its been a long way to freedom from this horribly repressed state and an even longer road to equality if there can be one.
I’m going to adopt a slightly different tack with this post, to see if I can stretch the terms of this discussion so if I’m somewhat contrary with my previous statements please try to bear with me…
Nor was I, and in fact there has been a slightly better discussion that I was expecting, thus far…
There is always the danger of blaming present all present white people or indeed all white people for the actions of what were a small minority. Just as there is in saying that all black people hate white people and blame them for their own failings when in truth it is probably only a small minority that do this and a bunch of others who sometimes play along but don’t really believe it. You’d be in a better position to assess this latter claim I’m sure, but the dice cut both ways…
Yes, but now you have a racist reaction against white people. If I applied for a job as a philosophy A-level teacher and the other two applicants were a man of Indian origin and a black woman who do you think is most likely to get the job? Bearing in mind that nearly 70% of teachers, even more in the humanities, are female and that teaching as a whole has a higher proportion of non-white ethnic minorities (in the UK) than almost any other profession…
Of course racism against black people still exists, and is probably as bad in the US as it is anywhere that is politically comparable. I don’t really know because I don’t trust the press, because they fail to report stories of racism against white people (just like they fail to report violence by women) in anything even approaching an accurate manner.
A case in point: 2 weeks ago a couple of white hoodlums were jailed for periods that were in each case longer than their ages (one was 17, the other was 21, I think). Their crime was to kill a black teenager in Liverpool called Anthony Walker and the story has had a massive amount of press coverage. In the same week 3 men from Pakistani backgrounds and from Muslim families were jailed for killing a young white men. In each case there was substantial evidence that the primary motive was racism but the two white guys were convicted of a racist murder while the 2 Pakistani Brits were just jailed for murder. As such the 3 guys (who it seems were just as racist as the two white guys) will serve less time, despite being older and therefore, you could argue, even more culpable and even more at fault.
When the justice system shows such blatant bias in its willingness to label crimes ‘racially motivated’ (not to mention the media - who barely covered the latter case and certainly didn’t cover it in anything like a critical fashion as it is meant to do) what am I, a white person, meant to think? That if I’m being racially abused by someone it doesn’t matter, it isn’t a crime, it isn’t wrong, because I’m white? That if I go to the police they’ll not do anything about it because their quotas for stamping down on racism are only concerned with racism towards ethnic minorities?
We live in a situation where almost EVERY group is discriminated against on grounds of race, sex, age and so on, but in different ways in each case. The danger to me is those who only seek to highlight the cause and plight of their own people, which you are in danger of doing…
Someone may not accept you for any number of reasons but express it in racist terms, if you see what I mean. That racism is often a means rather than an end…
That’s precisely my point, that it’s easy to say ‘this person only dislikes you because of your skin colour’ but that often there’s a much more complex explanation, that in fact maybe it is some aspect of your character that they don’t like but that the easiest way for them to ‘get back’ at you for whatever problem it is they have with you is to be racist towards you. Is this hitting home?
Yes and no. We always have some element of choice.
Again, don’t overlook the fact that plenty of other than black people are impoverished (not to mention that this attitude towards white people and the mantra of ‘we are treated the worst of all’ is repeated by rich black people as well). And what do you see in the most impoverished non-black communities? You see the same attitude, the same blaming on someone else, anyone else, regardless of accuracy or logic, just to alleviate responsibility.
That you are predicting that ‘it is only going to get worse’ is exactly the sort of disgusting, defeatist attitude that riles me deeply about African Americans. It’s an attitude that exists across the board but it is most prevalent in African Americans despite the fact their relations across the Atlantic are FAR more poor, far more sick, far more deprived that they are. They claim some combined sense of being deprived due to their race while simultaneously ignoring what they have that others of their race do not have. This to me is gross hypocrisy and I think you need to reconsider your attitude towards this element of this discussion…
I think that you’ve gone back to sitting on the fence. Now you are seeking to excuse African Americans for their own maintaining of a defeatist attitude whereas before you were saying that you sought to vanquish such hatred in those you know. I much prefer the former to the latter. Whinging and perpetuating stereotypes will only make things worse, and African Americans need to take their share of the blame for this. They are capable of so much more than that and it is in part their fault for not taking the risk and trying to do something. Yes, it probably will be hard, but achieving just about anything worthwhile involves struggle, indeed simply maintaining one’s position, treading water, can be a struggle. There is always a choice…
The slave narrative literature is highly diverse on this topic. Some were, some were not. Your selective reading of your own race’s history in the US is bred from a black racist culture and that you cannot see this is highly ironic. I mean no offence by this statement.
Okay, compare that to my ancestors, who a couple of centuries before were in pretty much the same boat, they were born an agricultural slave, their children would be born agricultural slaves, they would die agricultural slaves. They had little or no freedom of movement, no hope of climbing the social ladder, were the victims of a legal system that either granted them no status or a negative status, worked for no profit and in miserable conditions.
Oh yeah, and unlike the African American slaves they’d regularly be called up to go off anf fight wars against foreign nations, usually the French. Or someone would invade and kill them all.
Personally I’d marginally prefer the life of an African American slave, but it’s up to you. My point is that the symbolism of the white man at the top (the slave owner, the king) doesn’t preclude the white man also being at the bottom.
As do all sorts of other prejudices, some more or less institutionalised than others…
I can downplay anything I like in the face of overwhelming evidence. The fact is that African Americans were victims - yes, but so were plenty of other people, including (shock horror) the ones predominantly responsible for treating African Americans like shit. For how long were African Americans slaves? 3 centuries? 5 centuries? Compare that to 3 millenia of my ancestors being slaves (of equivalent if not worse status) and you’ve got yourself a serious difference.
I think that you should do some more reading on this topic because you clearly think to be an African American slave was the worst thing in history and that they as a race have suffered more than any other group. This is totally inaccurate and it is highly racist of you to be so selective in your retelling of history. Once again, I mean no personal offence, I merely seek to suggest things to you that you may not have considered and point you in the direction of historical accuracy…
Regardless of context, TheAdlerian’s first statement seems to be accurate, as your statement passionately displays.
Now Im not one to perform ad hom. as others, so I will definetely attempt to answer your post in a manner I believe to be most acceptable. Regardless, I appreciate your comments and accounts.
someoneisatthedoor wrote:
I, in particular, of course only being able to speak for myself because I am myself, have witnessed this racist reaction, that I might add for effect was produced by racist actions, and in myself attempted alleviate it. I, being a minority in the evolutionary sense, as that I look beyond more superficial extremeties not like the majority of the inhabitants in most countries, have seemingly been placed in a position which has formed within me the mental faculties of being able to become more aware of all my reactions to action, and of course with this ability learn to eradicate discrepancies for further growth. I wholeheartedly believe that if others (this includes everyone, all races alike) were like me, ie. more in control of themselves due to increased awareness, then a lot of unnecessary racism would be taken care of. But the fact at hand is that the majority is not like me, and are not even aware that they can change themselves. But, its such a beautiful situation I am in, and though the majority will continue to have this self-defeatist attitude, there are few others who are close to being like me, and those I can help.
It appears that you dont live in the US, and as a result wouldnt even be able to comment on the racial and discriminative status of this nation.
First of all, your right, we do live in a situation where almost every group is discriminated against, and this means that every group must be discriminating. So in answer to your first question about who would get the job, I believe it has a lot less to do with those already hired in a general sense, but more so to do with who is doing the hiring.
When you asked me if what you were saying was hitting home, I would honestly have to reply, no. It appears your trying to say that because of already racist attitudes, which would inevitably affect the view that person has about the other, that the person who is portraying the racist attitude does so because of some other reason? I apologize but, I’d have to say that’s ridiculous. Now, it is invariably possible that because of the already imminent racist attitude, that one sees one of the many stigmas that are associated with the particular race they are observing, and therefore expresses the racist attitude against the observed. Now whether these stigmas observed in the individual were superficial or actually evident of character, noone can even begin to know but the observer, who almost always doesnt even realize that he is performing in this way, so he probably doesnt know either.
Yes, but these elements are invariably limited by our situations. We always attempt to evaluate someone else’s situation from our own perspective and abilities, this shouldnt be done and has no merit.
Oh my, this is what you dont understand. There is no attempt to alleviate responsibility, people realize that in order to change and for things to get better, that a personal change must occur. Some people remain at focus on the cause of African-Americans position, simply because it is deduced through logic and accurate depictions. The point of this is to enlighten those who dont understand the reasons why they are in the positions they’re in, not to make the white man do something different in order to alleviate the responsibility for ourselves. I will admit that in some ways this use to be the aim, for example the idea of reparations and what not, but this was only considered in conjunction to the reparations of Native Americans. In both cases something was taken from the minority, and in African Americans case, much of our heritage was taken, at least the Native Americans still have that.
Also, Im not over looking the fact that other blacks are more impoverished. I am referring specifically to the situation in America, of which since I am an inhabitant and citizen, I can speak on.
When I say “as times get worse”, I am referring to everything getting worse. Its an obvious trend, you can ignore it if you would like, but the world with the addition of television and several other factors is on its way to big problems. Things arent getting better for any nations, and as a result, the majority of everyones mentality will coincide with the times. I dont think you can dispute that.
I have already alluded to this earlier in my post, but to reinterate, the majority of people cant be helped, and those who are already set in their ways and truly a product of their lives, should be excused for not even having enough awareness of themselves as to see that they can change. This isnt only prevelant amongst African Americans, but as I said before, the majority of people. I attempt to help all, but only a few will be affected to a point of change.
Ha! Irony indeed, because I see it as my selective reading of my own race’s culture, of course a culture forced upon us, is bred from a white racist culture which attempts to provide to all only a small piece of the history that was truth. All additional reading I have done on my own. It seems as if you’ve only been able to read, if any, those readings suggested from those who have written the history books that attempt to highlight or bring focus to the “lighter” side of slavery.
Okay, I have compared the two. Now do you live in precisely the same area or country your ancestors had to endure this slavery? Also, did those who enslaved your ancestors have a completely different outer appearance that had never before been seen by your ancestors, increasing their ability to say that because your skin is different, you deserve to be enslaved? Only because your skin is different, you deserve to be severely beaten and treated as animals? Your skin is darker and that gives me the right to control you. lol you’d still prefer the life of an African American slave? How about this question: Would you prefer the life of an African American today? And I would appreciate it if you answered this question directly with a yes or no, instead of attempting to manuever around it.
It doesnt matter how long African Americans were slaves. The significance here derives from the fact that they were the most recent slaves, still being fresh to realize, and that we still live in the place where we were brought over against our will and enslaved. This makes for the difference. This oppression still affects “us”, and you cant see it or even come close to realizing it because you obviously arent “us”. African Americans have struggled hard in this country and have at least risen to the point to where we have, the white man didnt give us freedom on his own merit, we fought for it. And we’re still fighting, only to be in this miserable and detrimental position.
