To hate the white man

[someoneisatthedoor]

Dear Illativemindindeed,

I’ll try to continue this conversation but since you’ve decided to pull the classic ‘unless you are living it you can’t comment’ card you’ve reduced all conversation to a matter of personal experience and as such none of us can talk about any issue except from a purely personal perspective and so we can’t really talk about general things like ‘history’ or ‘racism’ at all…

@illativemindindeed

someoneatthedoor wrote:

One other point - it was of course white men who made the biggest difference to African Americans’ fate, by abolishing slavery…

and even more interesting after…

TheAdlerian wrote:

The “white man” seems to have the talent for fucking things up and then finding solutions for the fuck-ups. I’m thinking of the movie Monsters Ball here. That movie was the greatest tribute to white people ever.

Regardless of context, TheAdlerian’s first statement seems to be accurate, as your statement passionately displays.

Hardly.

1. slavery existed for millenia prior to the enslavement of Africans in America
2. the Black race participated in it’s own slavery

Was it the Black west Africans who sold their neighbours up the river who gave up slavery? No, it was (first of all) the British government…

Once again you seek to downplay the crimes committed by your own people and focus solely on blaming whites. I’ll leave you to conclude what you will.

Now Im not one to perform ad hom. as others, so I will definetely attempt to answer your post in a manner I believe to be most acceptable. Regardless, I appreciate your comments and accounts.

someoneisatthedoor wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
I feel that there’s a bitter irony that so many African Americans (or other black people elsewhere) feel the need to maintain a figure of hatred, an icon of disgust, if you like. Perhaps (and only perhaps) it’s an issue of identity, a purely cultural/psychological issue. Because Africans in America are ‘that which once was enslaved but is no longer’ there’s no obvious role to fulfil or position to adopt. There is the echo of the past, that it was once so much worse for African blacks in America, which could easily make contemporary African Americans feel like they’ve failed to accomplish enough given how much worse it was for their ancestors.

Not only was it much worse for African Americans in the past, it still is. Even though racism isnt nearly as evident as it was, it definetely still exist.

Yes, but now you have a racist reaction against white people. If I applied for a job as a philosophy A-level teacher and the other two applicants were a man of Indian origin and a black woman who do you think is most likely to get the job? Bearing in mind that nearly 70% of teachers, even more in the humanities, are female and that teaching as a whole has a higher proportion of non-white ethnic minorities (in the UK) than almost any other profession…

Of course racism against black people still exists, and is probably as bad in the US as it is anywhere that is politically comparable. I don’t really know because I don’t trust the press, because they fail to report stories of racism against white people (just like they fail to report violence by women) in anything even approaching an accurate manner.

A case in point: 2 weeks ago a couple of white hoodlums were jailed for periods that were in each case longer than their ages (one was 17, the other was 21, I think). Their crime was to kill a black teenager in Liverpool called Anthony Walker and the story has had a massive amount of press coverage. In the same week 3 men from Pakistani backgrounds and from Muslim families were jailed for killing a young white men. In each case there was substantial evidence that the primary motive was racism but the two white guys were convicted of a racist murder while the 2 Pakistani Brits were just jailed for murder. As such the 3 guys (who it seems were just as racist as the two white guys) will serve less time, despite being older and therefore, you could argue, even more culpable and even more at fault.

When the justice system shows such blatant bias in its willingness to label crimes ‘racially motivated’ (not to mention the media - who barely covered the latter case and certainly didn’t cover it in anything like a critical fashion as it is meant to do) what am I, a white person, meant to think? That if I’m being racially abused by someone it doesn’t matter, it isn’t a crime, it isn’t wrong, because I’m white? That if I go to the police they’ll not do anything about it because their quotas for stamping down on racism are only concerned with racism towards ethnic minorities?

I, in particular, of course only being able to speak for myself because I am myself, have witnessed this racist reaction, that I might add for effect was produced by racist actions, and in myself attempted alleviate it. I, being a minority in the evolutionary sense, as that I look beyond more superficial extremeties not like the majority of the inhabitants in most countries, have seemingly been placed in a position which has formed within me the mental faculties of being able to become more aware of all my reactions to action, and of course with this ability learn to eradicate discrepancies for further growth. I wholeheartedly believe that if others (this includes everyone, all races alike) were like me, ie. more in control of themselves due to increased awareness, then a lot of unnecessary racism would be taken care of.

Says the person who repeatedly overlooks his own race’s part in it’s partial enslavement…

But the fact at hand is that the majority is not like me, and are not even aware that they can change themselves. But, its such a beautiful situation I am in, and though the majority will continue to have this self-defeatist attitude, there are few others who are close to being like me, and those I can help.

You see I don’t believe that for a second. There’s always a choice.

It appears that you dont live in the US, and as a result wouldnt even be able to comment on the racial and discriminative status of this nation.

By that token it would appear that everyone only has such a tiny number of experiences of life that drawing any conclusions about anything like history, racism, nationality, social identity and so on is reckless arrogance. Also, you say that the majority is not like you - how do you know given that you haven’t got personal experience of them?

Do you see why that is such a dead-end criticism?

We live in a situation where almost EVERY group is discriminated against on grounds of race, sex, age and so on, but in different ways in each case. The danger to me is those who only seek to highlight the cause and plight of their own people, which you are in danger of doing…

I mean I live in Tennessee, and I see racism all the time. If you are familiar with the self-fulfilling prophecy, we all have biases and judgements about groups of people, and when we encounter those groups within our perception, the stigma is most often expressed. One thing I will note is that in my own experience, when I adopt the usual and admittingly more polite mannerisms of caucasians when encountering them, I get a favorable response; almost as if to be breaking the stereotype, if one exist, in relation to me at least. But there are also many times when I conduct this type of behavior and there is no acceptance among the individuals.

Someone may not accept you for any number of reasons but express it in racist terms, if you see what I mean. That racism is often a means rather than an end…

It used to bother me, and when you see and feel this type of reaction and you know its just because of your skin color, nothing to do with your character, it really gets to you.

That’s precisely my point, that it’s easy to say ‘this person only dislikes you because of your skin colour’ but that often there’s a much more complex explanation, that in fact maybe it is some aspect of your character that they don’t like but that the easiest way for them to ‘get back’ at you for whatever problem it is they have with you is to be racist towards you. Is this hitting home?

First of all, your right, we do live in a situation where almost every group is discriminated against, and this means that every group must be discriminating. So in answer to your first question about who would get the job, I believe it has a lot less to do with those already hired in a general sense, but more so to do with who is doing the hiring.

My point is that (although this only occurs in certain respects in US culture it is prevalent in UK culture) in many circumstances being a white male is a serious disadvantage. The usual narratives of women being the most downtrodden or blacks being the most downtrodden or muslims being the mostdowntrodden or Jews being the most downtrodden (…) don’t bear an awful lot of weight, to me they all sound like buck-passing and naysaying.

When you asked me if what you were saying was hitting home, I would honestly have to reply, no. It appears your trying to say that because of already racist attitudes, which would inevitably affect the view that person has about the other, that the person who is portraying the racist attitude does so because of some other reason?

No, I’m saying, bluntly, that someone might call a black person a nigger for non-racist reasons. They might hate the guy because he scored higher on a test that they wanted to do well in, or got a job that you wanted, or because he got to go out with a desireable female, or got a vital position on a schools sports team or any number of other reasons and the intention is to inflame and insult but I wouldn’t call that racism in the same sense as institutional racism in the Metropolitan Police force.

I apologize but, I’d have to say that’s ridiculous.

Can you imagine a black person hating a white person and saying anti-white things for reasons other than hating white people? Perhaps because of their own shitty situation which they resent? No? You can’t imagine this? I find it ludicrous that you interpret every act of aggression in literal terms…

Now, it is invariably possible that because of the already imminent racist attitude, that one sees one of the many stigmas that are associated with the particular race they are observing, and therefore expresses the racist attitude against the observed.

Why are you using all this postmodern jargon for something that is essentially quite simple? Black people can be observers too…

Now whether these stigmas observed in the individual were superficial or actually evident of character, noone can even begin to know but the observer, who almost always doesnt even realize that he is performing in this way, so he probably doesnt know either.

So now racists don’t even know that they’re being racist, but you do? Is that what you are saying?

Yes and no. We always have some element of choice.

Yes, but these elements are invariably limited by our situations. We always attempt to evaluate someone else’s situation from our own perspective and abilities, this shouldnt be done and has no merit.

As I said, if that is the case then all of your ‘I’m so aware, I’m switched on, I know what things really are and am so conscious of everything’ spiel is completely worthless and this conversation is grossly arrogance by all parties involved…

Again, don’t overlook the fact that plenty of other than black people are impoverished (not to mention that this attitude towards white people and the mantra of ‘we are treated the worst of all’ is repeated by rich black people as well). And what do you see in the most impoverished non-black communities? You see the same attitude, the same blaming on someone else, anyone else, regardless of accuracy or logic, just to alleviate responsibility.

That you are predicting that ‘it is only going to get worse’ is exactly the sort of disgusting, defeatist attitude that riles me deeply about African Americans. It’s an attitude that exists across the board but it is most prevalent in African Americans despite the fact their relations across the Atlantic are FAR more poor, far more sick, far more deprived that they are. They claim some combined sense of being deprived due to their race while simultaneously ignoring what they have that others of their race do not have. This to me is gross hypocrisy and I think you need to reconsider your attitude towards this element of this discussion…

Oh my, this is what you dont understand. There is no attempt to alleviate responsibility, people realize that in order to change and for things to get better, that a personal change must occur.

I thought you said that the majority were stuck in their ways and that you were part of the minority in realising that things much change on all sides… This would appear to directly contradict this argument.

Some people remain at focus on the cause of African-Americans position, simply because it is deduced through logic and accurate depictions. The point of this is to enlighten those who dont understand the reasons why they are in the positions they’re in, not to make the white man do something different in order to alleviate the responsibility for ourselves. I will admit that in some ways this use to be the aim, for example the idea of reparations and what not, but this was only considered in conjunction to the reparations of Native Americans. In both cases something was taken from the minority, and in African Americans case, much of our heritage was taken, at least the Native Americans still have that.

The heritage is there in British museums and in the African countries from which your ancestors were taken. And in slave literature.

Also, Im not over looking the fact that other blacks are more impoverished. I am referring specifically to the situation in America, of which since I am an inhabitant and citizen, I can speak on.

No you can’t, because you only have one person’s tiny little collection of experiences and a bunch of hearsay which could all be totally untrue, by the standard you employed against my arguments above…

When I say “as times get worse”, I am referring to everything getting worse. Its an obvious trend, you can ignore it if you would like, but the world with the addition of television and several other factors is on its way to big problems. Things arent getting better for any nations, and as a result, the majority of everyones mentality will coincide with the times. I dont think you can dispute that.

Life in the UK is pretty damn good, and is a helluva lot better in many regards than it was 15 years back under the arse end of Thatcher’s government…

In this country TV has been part of a deliberate multicultural integration policy (in particular the BBC) which has helped stem the tide of racism, inform all sides concerned and had led to (for the most part) a respectable harmony. Your blanket blaming of television is comical - if that is truly your level of argument then I think that I’m probably wasting my time…

I think that you’ve gone back to sitting on the fence. Now you are seeking to excuse African Americans for their own maintaining of a defeatist attitude whereas before you were saying that you sought to vanquish such hatred in those you know. I much prefer the former to the latter. Whinging and perpetuating stereotypes will only make things worse, and African Americans need to take their share of the blame for this. They are capable of so much more than that and it is in part their fault for not taking the risk and trying to do something. Yes, it probably will be hard, but achieving just about anything worthwhile involves struggle, indeed simply maintaining one’s position, treading water, can be a struggle. There is always a choice…

I have already alluded to this earlier in my post, but to reinterate, the majority of people cant be helped, and those who are already set in their ways and truly a product of their lives, should be excused for not even having enough awareness of themselves as to see that they can change.

That’s funny, because in this post you said, “Oh my, this is what you dont understand. There is no attempt to alleviate responsibility, people realize that in order to change and for things to get better, that a personal change must occur.”

These statements, that people realise personal change must occur, and people being set in their ways, would appear to be totally contradictory…

This isnt only prevelant amongst African Americans, but as I said before, the majority of people. I attempt to help all, but only a few will be affected to a point of change.

The slave narrative literature is highly diverse on this topic. Some were, some were not. Your selective reading of your own race’s history in the US is bred from a black racist culture and that you cannot see this is highly ironic. I mean no offence by this statement.

Ha! Irony indeed, because I see it as my selective reading of my own race’s culture, of course a culture forced upon us, is bred from a white racist culture which attempts to provide to all only a small piece of the history that was truth.

Of course, which is why in the English education system they teach you both. It’s called studying history properly, looking for potential bias in sources, looking for how arguments are being constructed and whether other interpretations are possible. Funnily enough I can read a history book without being taken in by everything it says…

All additional reading I have done on my own. It seems as if you’ve only been able to read, if any, those readings suggested from those who have written the history books that attempt to highlight or bring focus to the “lighter” side of slavery.

Hardly, I’ve just studied history other than the history of America and African Americans and am therefore aware of worse things having happened, worse crimes having been committed for similarly stupid reasons…

Okay, compare that to my ancestors, who a couple of centuries before were in pretty much the same boat, they were born an agricultural slave, their children would be born agricultural slaves, they would die agricultural slaves. They had little or no freedom of movement, no hope of climbing the social ladder, were the victims of a legal system that either granted them no status or a negative status, worked for no profit and in miserable conditions.

Oh yeah, and unlike the African American slaves they’d regularly be called up to go off anf fight wars against foreign nations, usually the French. Or someone would invade and kill them all.

Personally I’d marginally prefer the life of an African American slave, but it’s up to you. My point is that the symbolism of the white man at the top (the slave owner, the king) doesn’t preclude the white man also being at the bottom.

Okay, I have compared the two. Now do you live in precisely the same area or country your ancestors had to endure this slavery?

Yep, I live (on and off) in the North of England…

Also, did those who enslaved your ancestors have a completely different outer appearance that had never before been seen by your ancestors, increasing their ability to say that because your skin is different, you deserve to be enslaved?

No, it wasn’t anything as comprehendable as a massive difference in colour of skin (and shape and size of skull, relative limb measurements and other superficial features which can of course be interpreted in any number of ways), it was simply that the people were poor and stupid and easily exploited…

Only because your skin is different, you deserve to be severely beaten and treated as animals? Your skin is darker and that gives me the right to control you. lol you’d still prefer the life of an African American slave?

No, because you are born into a poor family and in our culture there is no movement of social status due, in part, to contemporary Christian determinist theology…

So, as stupid a reason as being black…

How about this question: Would you prefer the life of an African American today? And I would appreciate it if you answered this question directly with a yes or no, instead of attempting to manuever around it.

Depends on which African American I was, there are a reasonable proportion of African Americans who are in perfectly decent circumstances. On the other hand most Americans aren’t particularly well off, it seems, and the gap between the rich and non-rich is greater there than here. The answer is no, but that’s not because of race, it’s because I happen to live in highly desireable circumstances and as such I wouldn’t trade my position for many things…

I can downplay anything I like in the face of overwhelming evidence. The fact is that African Americans were victims - yes, but so were plenty of other people, including (shock horror) the ones predominantly responsible for treating African Americans like shit. For how long were African Americans slaves? 3 centuries? 5 centuries? Compare that to 3 millenia of my ancestors being slaves (of equivalent if not worse status) and you’ve got yourself a serious difference.

It doesnt matter how long African Americans were slaves. The significance here derives from the fact that they were the most recent slaves, still being fresh to realize, and that we still live in the place where we were brought over against our will and enslaved. This makes for the difference. This oppression still affects “us”, and you cant see it or even come close to realizing it because you obviously arent “us”.

In which case you have no idea of the suffering endured over several millenia by my ancestors and have no idea of the suffering endured presently by white British middle class humanities students like me because you aren’t a white British middle class humanities student and have no comparable experience and therefore you simply cannot make a comparison. Is the absurdity of this argument clear to you yet?

African Americans have struggled hard in this country and have at least risen to the point to where we have, the white man didnt give us freedom on his own merit, we fought for it. And we’re still fighting, only to be in this miserable and detrimental position.

I thought that you weren’t fighting, I thought that you admitted that most people held a defeatist attitude and were set in their ways?

I must admit that I’m puzzled more than anything by your latest attempts at an argument. Your withdraw into ‘you aren’t in my position so you can’t say anything about it’ is an utterly absurd argument which renders all conversation and argument pointless. Then you keep contradicting yourself on the issue of how most African Americans see their plight, and accuse me of historical ignorance. This is a baffling tactic and I fear that nothing further can be made of this exchange.

[aspacia]

Hum, shouldn’t this question be reworded. I mean scientists generally agree there are no races, only ethnic groups. I mean an Anglo Saxon often will disagree with another Anglo-Saxon, so forth and so on.

How about I hate Western Colonization?

[aspacia]

@illativemindindeed

Mucius Scevola wrote:

Why should we hate the white man ? Is he so hateable ?

This thread caught my attention, of course as it will probably catch manys attention. But for me, because I am African American, my first thoughts were, “Uh oh”.

Good post, but remember we were really bad, but who sold the Blacks to the Whites as slaves in the first place.

There are no races as far as I am concerned, only ethnic groups.

Smiles,

aspacia

[someoneisatthedoor]

@aspacia

Hum, shouldn’t this question be reworded. I mean scientists generally agree there are no races, only ethnic groups. I mean an Anglo Saxon often will disagree with another Anglo-Saxon, so forth and so on.

And there’s no reason why people from different races can’t agree…

[aspacia]

@someemofag

My only complaint is that white culture has created some of the worst music in history. Basically from 600AD to 1940AD with a few exceptions white music has sucked.

Musical likes are based on personal opinion and personally I thing rap sucks and love classical along with folk and old time rock n roll, QUEEN ROCKS.

[aspacia]

@détrop

Pedro, on the other hand, knows his place. He is quicker to admit his ignorance in front of his contemporaries where he does not know, and better prided and skilled in teaching what he does know to those who do not.

The Mexicans and Orientals will rule the Earth one day. Mark my words. The final race will be Mexinese. Whitey will be only read about in history books.

LOL, perhaps Asian, but I doubt the Mexicans. Remember, both groups overwhelmingly come from corrupt and totalitarian cultures. Generally, a good education is not a strong Mexican Cultural value; education is a strong Asian value. The reason the Asians are thriving is they we taught them the game, quality products, and they are beating us the game, at least at the moment. Chuckle, many from India, who return to India, choose U.S. schools as we do not only teach rote memorization, but critical thinking as well. At the moment our public schools suck, especially in the Southwest, as so many illegals are enrolled and teachers are expected to teach students who have never had a days formal education, enrolled in eleveth grade at the eleventh grade level. Bah. Screw Mexico as they do not have a public school system worth a shit or health care and call the U.S. racist.

Fit in, do not buck the crowd??? LOL, U.S., the West, the Israelis continually bicker and are at the top of the competative game. Yes, there is outsoucing, we the West, especially the U.S. are not bound by a class or caste system, and generally are very flexible, often are jack of many trades as this is our history.

Follow the crowd if you want…Not me. Be creative and think out of the box to compete. This is the U.S. heritage. Trust me, I am U.S. citizen, and my father, other half and my son can do much more than go to work, school, etc. Electrical, masonary, walls, cement patios, car repair, etc. Many traditions kill innovation.

[aspacia]

@TheAdlerian

Irish music kind of rocks!
Bagpipes are great.
Middle-eastern music and Indian music really move.

So do the Scots pipes, I try to attend the Robbie Burns dinners with the pipe, albeit I avoid the haggis. I am 1/4 Scots, a good MacIntosh.

Smiles,

aspacia

[aspacia]

@Mucius Scevola

I hate the white in the white man, because it gives him the impression that the sun shines brighter off him.

Other than that, he’s ok.

Merry Christmas.

*edited

[aspacia]

@illativemindindeed

but the truth is, African Americans were the victims. You cant downplay the severity of the African American experience, for its been a long way to freedom from this horribly repressed state and an even longer road to equality if there can be one.

Yes, and this is a major stain on our heritage. Just remember the Irish went through the same discrimination, heck papism even came into play during JFK’s presidential candidacy. Also, many Whites died in the voyage to the state as well. It is changing, and you have a right to be angry. Most, if not all welcome Blacks into the society, not like in the 60’s,and before the 60’s as you do not have the Jim Crow laws to deal with anymore. The Jim Byrd murder as awful and the perpetrators were nailed big time.

[aspacia]

@XYZ

Yes, I do hate the white man and all he has done. He is a stupid idiot who thinks he owns everything. He is like any other.

edited

[TheAdlerian]

I would like to try haggis, though.

A friend of mine and I used to play video games to bagpipe music. It sounds strange but it was exciting.

I also find it interesting that those guys would march out in the front lines playing during a battle.

[aspacia]

SIATD, you have only recently started to feel the sting of discrimination. I felt it for more than twenty years, and Blacks and other minorities have felt it for there entire lives. I am sick of the victim game, and trust me I have been victimized by the system and my ex., but have stopped being really upset as it eats too much time and energy and am a respected member of society as a woman and an instructor, bout time, and it took time. Remember, I love my father and deeply miss the old guy, and love my other half, who I also deeply miss, but he will join me when I have tenure, ah Sunday, Sunday and winter break and I am home for a few weeks.

It is very simple, if you live in the a place like Tennesse and suffer discrimination, move to a more liberal climate like California. SIATD, if you feel victimized, I hope you earn employment in a very Tory type conservative company. Actually, you might consider a solid red state in the U.S.

I was so sick of California and illegal immigration I left after 52 years, left my 80 year-old mother and my other-half as I HATE THE LIBERAL BS IN THE STATE. Because I support a strong border and am against ILLEGALS, I WAS CALLED RACIST and my maiden name is Candelaria. Geez, everyone seems to have a name for everyone else.

Ah, here we go again. Tell me when the KO happens.

[illativemindindeed]

someoneisatthedoor wrote:

Hardly.

1. slavery existed for millenia prior to the enslavement of Africans in America
2. the Black race participated in it’s own slavery

Was it the Black west Africans who sold their neighbours up the river who gave up slavery? No, it was (first of all) the British government…

Once again you seek to downplay the crimes committed by your own people and focus solely on blaming whites. I’ll leave you to conclude what you will.

Thank you for pointing this out for me. Your absolutely right, but you were also. Thats the whole reason I responded as I did. You cant forget the “white mans’” role in American slavery, no matter how much you attempt to ascribe blame to others.

Says the person who repeatedly overlooks his own race’s part in it’s partial enslavement…

I dont overlook anything. Im aware of everything your telling me. Thank you for the reinteration, but I am not focusing on Africans’ or Blacks’ in general my friend, I am speaking about the position in reference to African Americans. I know exactly what the Africans did and the role they played in African Americans enslavement. But, in the limited minisclue non significant relative position I derive from, white Americans had a lot to do with our current state. It cant be downplayed from my position, because I have truly lived these effects.

You see I don’t believe that for a second. There’s always a choice.

Of course! Im not saying there’s no choice. But what I am saying, is that that choice is significantly affected by the individuals circumstances. If you come from a place where all you see is crime, and this self-defeatist attitude, your more than likely to choose that attitude. The reasons why are numerous, but survival being one of the most prominent. You adapt to your surroundings to survive. Those that realize their choices are more plentiful, I believe to simply be more evolved. This goes into theoretical concepts, but it explains why some can get out of this mentality, and some cant. Choice is invariably affected by your past, its impossible to be able to choose freely.

By that token it would appear that everyone only has such a tiny number of experiences of life that drawing any conclusions about anything like history, racism, nationality, social identity and so on is reckless arrogance. Also, you say that the majority is not like you - how do you know given that you haven’t got personal experience of them?

Do you see why that is such a dead-end criticism?

Because I do have personal experience of them. I used to be like them, I changed, they didnt. If they felt they could truly change and grow beyond their lives, they would. But they dont see it being probable. I mean of course I havent got personal experience of all of them, but Ive talked to many, for as I said earlier, I attempt to help those who were in the same position as me. I mean if you believe you are who you are, and it cant change, then thats your reality, and believe me, thats the majorities reality. America is full of self-defeatist, our society makes it so.

I mean dont get me wrong here, I see your argument, but Im speaking from true experience.

My point is that (although this only occurs in certain respects in US culture it is prevalent in UK culture) in many circumstances being a white male is a serious disadvantage. The usual narratives of women being the most downtrodden or blacks being the most downtrodden or muslims being the mostdowntrodden or Jews being the most downtrodden (…) don’t bear an awful lot of weight, to me they all sound like buck-passing and naysaying.

Im sorry this is your experience, but each of these groups you’ve pointed out have the right and reasons to express themselves in the way they do, just as you do from your position. You cannot deny that. Try not to evaluate it from your limited POV.

No, I’m saying, bluntly, that someone might call a black person a nigger for non-racist reasons. They might hate the guy because he scored higher on a test that they wanted to do well in, or got a job that you wanted, or because he got to go out with a desireable female, or got a vital position on a schools sports team or any number of other reasons and the intention is to inflame and insult but I wouldn’t call that racism in the same sense as institutional racism in the Metropolitan Police force.

I dont doubt that there could be essentially non-racist reasons for someone to get upset, but this already prevelant racist attitude that exist, most often subconsciously, is triggered; and this triggering makes the issue an issue of race. “Damn that guy scored higher than me on the test. Stupid nigger”. This situation, plausible, but not likely. It more so goes like this. The first statment is more of a subconscious dialogue if there can be such: I see this black guy. “Damn he scored higher than me on the test. Stupid nigger.”

You cant downplay the physical, I mean its the first thing we see. You see the skin color first, therefore all racial attitudes if they exist are already triggered. Sorry, but if you dont call that “institutional” racism, you’ve got a lot more thinking to do.

Can you imagine a black person hating a white person and saying anti-white things for reasons other than hating white people? Perhaps because of their own shitty situation which they resent? No? You can’t imagine this? I find it ludicrous that you interpret every act of aggression in literal terms…

First of all, I dont consider racism to be hate. Its bias against another. Being less partial to a race. If you change hate to being less partial, then definetely no I do not see this happening. Even though the reasons may not initially be racist, they become an issue of race, because the racist attitude is there. It may be covered up really well, but its there, and it simply being there makes for the reason to be clouded with this attitude.

Where are you getting that I interpret every act of aggression in literal terms? How can you make this assumption?

Now, it is invariably possible that because of the already imminent racist attitude, that one sees one of the many stigmas that are associated with the particular race they are observing, and therefore expresses the racist attitude against the observed.

Why are you using all this postmodern jargon for something that is essentially quite simple? Black people can be observers too…

Ummm, this is evident. I never said we werent observers. And I didnt imply it either.

So now racists don’t even know that they’re being racist, but you do? Is that what you are saying?

Yes. The majority, yes I said majority again, often dont realize the beliefs they hold are racist. Any stereotypical belief of a race can be perceived as a racist remark, even though the intent may not be so. Often times these stereotypical beliefs are what indeed create bias towards another race, for in comparing the stereotype to yourself or your own race; if there is much difference, one often comes to the point to where they feel slightly better than the stereotyped race in relation to this particular belief, giving that person a racial attitude, whether they realize it or not. I am obviously aware of this process.

Yes, but these elements are invariably limited by our situations. We always attempt to evaluate someone else’s situation from our own perspective and abilities, this shouldnt be done and has no merit.

As I said, if that is the case then all of your ‘I’m so aware, I’m switched on, I know what things really are and am so conscious of everything’ spiel is completely worthless and this conversation is grossly arrogance by all parties involved…

Agreed. But how can my “Im so aware” spiel be worthless, when it is from my perspective, my experience?

Oh my, this is what you dont understand. There is no attempt to alleviate responsibility, people realize that in order to change and for things to get better, that a personal change must occur.

I thought you said that the majority were stuck in their ways and that you were part of the minority in realising that things much change on all sides… This would appear to directly contradict this argument.

I agree that what I’ve said could be misleading, me using the word people. But you’ve obviously misinterpreted me and have taken what I have said out of context. The word people refers to those who we were talking about, the ones who are obviously aware of the state of African Americans, and have decided to speak up about it. These individuals are the minority, and their obviously self-aware enough to where they realize a change must occur in the individual. There are no contradictions.

The heritage is there in British museums and in the African countries from which your ancestors were taken. And in slave literature.

lol you dont get this either. You can say your ancestors were enslaved, and its obvious you’ve been able to somewhat trace back your lineage. This task for us is completely different. I dont know what tribe Ive derived from. My great-grandmother and my grandparents dont know. That heritage is lost. Im speaking of more than just a general heritage here. I come from a specific tribe, with a specific culture, and I dont know any of it.

No you can’t, because you only have one person’s tiny little collection of experiences and a bunch of hearsay which could all be totally untrue, by the standard you employed against my arguments above…

Yes I can, because these are my experiences in America that I am speaking from. It might be limited, but my perspective is relevant.

Life in the UK is pretty damn good, and is a helluva lot better in many regards than it was 15 years back under the arse end of Thatcher’s government…

In this country TV has been part of a deliberate multicultural integration policy (in particular the BBC) which has helped stem the tide of racism, inform all sides concerned and had led to (for the most part) a respectable harmony. Your blanket blaming of television is comical - if that is truly your level of argument then I think that I’m probably wasting my time…

Ill give you this one. The UK is definetely a deviation from the norm in considering the declining nature and mentality of individuals, at least in violence. But television definetely desensitizes people to the likes of violence and sex… there are studies that have proven this.

That’s funny, because in this post you said, “Oh my, this is what you dont understand. There is no attempt to alleviate responsibility, people realize that in order to change and for things to get better, that a personal change must occur.”

These statements, that people realise personal change must occur, and people being set in their ways, would appear to be totally contradictory…

You have taken what I said out of context for an attempt to label my statements contradictory.

Of course, which is why in the English education system they teach you both. It’s called studying history properly, looking for potential bias in sources, looking for how arguments are being constructed and whether other interpretations are possible. Funnily enough I can read a history book without being taken in by everything it says…

What English education system are you referring to? Oh you must mean the UK or something, I know you arent talking about America.

Also, the discussion wasnt about how the knowledge is obtained and interpreted but about the selective nature of the knowledge presented.

Hardly, I’ve just studied history other than the history of America and African Americans and am therefore aware of worse things having happened, worse crimes having been committed for similarly stupid reasons…

Of course, now I can understand why you attempt to downplay my position, because you’ve read about worse. Well, I thank you for your perspective, its truly erudite, and even though it bothers me a little bit, I commend you for being so adamant about how the African Americans situations dont compare.

No, it wasn’t anything as comprehendable as a massive difference in colour of skin (and shape and size of skull, relative limb measurements and other superficial features which can of course be interpreted in any number of ways), it was simply that the people were poor and stupid and easily exploited…

Are you poor and stupid? I still have my dark skin.

No, because you are born into a poor family and in our culture there is no movement of social status due, in part, to contemporary Christian determinist theology…

So, as stupid a reason as being black…

Definetely agreed.

In which case you have no idea of the suffering endured over several millenia by my ancestors and have no idea of the suffering endured presently by white British middle class humanities students like me because you aren’t a white British middle class humanities student and have no comparable experience and therefore you simply cannot make a comparison. Is the absurdity of this argument clear to you yet?

I dont see the absurdity in either case. I respect your position, just as you should respect mine. I mean I believe you, but I wont allow you to downplay my position without me speaking up about it. Thats the whole reason for this discussion.

I thought that you weren’t fighting, I thought that you admitted that most people held a defeatist attitude and were set in their ways?

This isnt a conscious fight against someone or something thats going on now. Its a fight for jobs, a fight for decent income, a fight for getting out of the hood. Thats the fight were faced with now.

I must admit that I’m puzzled more than anything by your latest attempts at an argument. Your withdraw into ‘you aren’t in my position so you can’t say anything about it’ is an utterly absurd argument which renders all conversation and argument pointless. Then you keep contradicting yourself on the issue of how most African Americans see their plight, and accuse me of historical ignorance. This is a baffling tactic and I fear that nothing further can be made of this exchange.

The conversation isnt pointless, its just self-referenced. And there was no contradiction expressed.

I have to tell you, I dont enjoy arguing. I used to be wonderful at it, and had all kinds of ways to win. Now, I am more peaceful when it comes to any situation, and my striving to attain a level of no desire would inevitably have me not desiring to to express myself. But I havent quite reached my pennacle, and when you attempted to express in your post reasons why blacks shouldnt have the positions of being upset at the white man, it hurt me. I mean it really struck a blow to me for you to think there was no justification for this. You presented a lot of truth, but regardless of all you’ve expressed, there is still the truth that we suffered, and as a result still suffer in many ways. I mean how can you say we shouldnt have this mentality when most of us do? Theres obviously something more going on than just a choice to be this way. I simply wanted you to see my perspective, while so many people dont take in consideration other peoples perspectives. Truth is, you arent in my position, and I have a right to express it, just as you do. I simply didnt appreciate you downplaying the experience my ancestors have had, and in which I am now still affected by. Its my experience, and its my truth. You can disagree and bring up other experiences all day. But Im going to always have my experience. I truly thank you for allowing me to speak how I feel about the situation.

[illativemindindeed]

aspacia wrote:

Yes, and this is a major stain on our heritage. Just remember the Irish went through the same discrimination, heck papism even came into play during JFK’s presidential candidacy. Also, many Whites died in the voyage to the state as well. It is changing, and you have a right to be angry. Most, if not all welcome Blacks into the society, not like in the 60’s,and before the 60’s as you do not have the Jim Crow laws to deal with anymore. The Jim Byrd murder as awful and the perpetrators were nailed big time.

I dont deny that others werent and still are discriminated against. Im simply stating my experience, and how slavery in the States applies to me and those around mel, from what I can deduce.

[someoneisatthedoor]

Dear aspacia,

This is turning into quite an interesting conversation, conducted in a good spirit.

@aspacia

SIATD, you have only recently started to feel the sting of discrimination. I felt it for more than twenty years, and Blacks and other minorities have felt it for there entire lives.

I’m in my early 20s. I’ve grown up in a world where white men are blamed for absolutely everything, where I have been blamed (usually only by implication, but since a lot of sexism and racism is only by implication…) for things that happened centuries prior to my birth. I personally have never failed to get a job because I was up against an army of disabled black welsh lesbians but I see this sort of bias affecting so many people with whom I share a gender and skin colour and (and this is the kicker for me) the media is almost entirely uncritical about such stereotyping. For me it has been a lifelong experience of assumption and prejudice predicated on my skin colour, gender and social class.

I’m not whinging, I’m not moaning, I understand why this happens and the history that has led us to this time. Take the opening post - if I’d posted ‘Do you hate the black man?’ as a thread title and then cited a song which denounced the black race as stupid, ugly, corrupt and uncivilised do you think that the ensuing discussion would have been civilised? Do you think that I could get away with such a thread in the philosophy section? Now the truth is that I could probably get away with almost anything on this forum because I’m a frequent contributor and I get on with the moderators but you see the discursive distinction I’m making, I hope.

I am sick of the victim game, and trust me I have been victimized by the system and my ex., but have stopped being really upset as it eats too much time and energy and am a respected member of society as a woman and an instructor, bout time, and it took time.

Fair enough, and credit to you. But can you see how, in brief moments, illativemind (clearly someone who has suffered from racism but for the most part intelligently rises above it) lapses into the apologist dogma that only repeats and maintains the problems of yesterday? That’s one of the points of interest for me, how easily intelligent people fall back on auld metaphors and metonyms (among other quirks) when discussing issues. I mentioned Orwell’s essay on Politics and the English Language on another thread and I wish I had the time to outline how it is relevant here. Perhaps tomorrow.

Remember, I love my father and deeply miss the old guy, and love my other half, who I also deeply miss, but he will join me when I have tenure, ah Sunday, Sunday and winter break and I am home for a few weeks.

Do you live somewhere other than home during term time?

It is very simple, if you live in the a place like Tennesse and suffer discrimination, move to a more liberal climate like California. SIATD, if you feel victimized, I hope you earn employment in a very Tory type conservative company. Actually, you might consider a solid red state in the U.S.

I don’t feel victimised, I’m just pointing out how in countries where there is a progressive policy of informing from school level upwards and trying to combat racial/ethnic prejudice head on there has been a tendency towards making white males into a symbolic figure of what we are trying to overcome, which as a real (i.e. non-symbolic) white male is hard to swallow.

I was so sick of California and illegal immigration I left after 52 years, left my 80 year-old mother and my other-half as I HATE THE LIBERAL BS IN THE STATE. Because I support a strong border and am against ILLEGALS, I WAS CALLED RACIST and my maiden name is Candelaria. Geez, everyone seems to have a name for everyone else.

Ah, here we go again. Tell me when the KO happens.

I know, people like to throw tags around rather than make any effort to understand. I see the nonsense spouted by those who call themselves ‘tolerant’ and ‘accepting’ to be utterly hypocritical, Not unlike the guy I mentionned on the now deleted thread who was a middle class academic (despite being thoroughly stupid in every way) riding around in a taxi, making a film, talking about how oppressed he is as a black person. I can help but feel grated that I, as a white filmmaker, would have to make something of much higher intellectual and stylistic quality in order to get an hour of primetime TV for my film, but because he’s black and spouting off a load of fashionable nonsense he gets resources that could have been used in much better ways…

But of course all I can do is take advantage of what I have got (which is certainly a lot) and try to make something special of myself. I’m not going to blame people like him for my lack of success (should I lack success)…

[someoneisatthedoor]

Dear illativemindindeed

@illativemindindeed

someoneisatthedoor wrote:

Hardly.

1. slavery existed for millenia prior to the enslavement of Africans in America
2. the Black race participated in it’s own slavery

Was it the Black west Africans who sold their neighbours up the river who gave up slavery? No, it was (first of all) the British government…

Once again you seek to downplay the crimes committed by your own people and focus solely on blaming whites. I’ll leave you to conclude what you will.

Thank you for pointing this out for me. Your absolutely right, but you were also. Thats the whole reason I responded as I did. You cant forget the “white mans’” role in American slavery, no matter how much you attempt to ascribe blame to others.

I don’t deny any such thing. Europeans commited some of the worst crimes in history (although they weren’t crimes in the legal sense at the time) during that period. They inflicted tremendous suffering for utterly dubious reasons (albeit ones which were economically sound at the time) on a large group of people. I wouldn’t deny that for a moment. But I would never resort to phrasing it in terms of a ‘white on black’ crime as a whole. That, these days, serves little purpose other that to foster unnecessary division.

Says the person who repeatedly overlooks his own race’s part in it’s partial enslavement…

I dont overlook anything. Im aware of everything your telling me. Thank you for the reinteration, but I am not focusing on Africans’ or Blacks’ in general my friend, I am speaking about the position in reference to African Americans. I know exactly what the Africans did and the role they played in African Americans enslavement. But, in the limited minisclue non significant relative position I derive from, white Americans had a lot to do with our current state. It cant be downplayed from my position, because I have truly lived these effects.

I don’t seek to downplay, merely to counter and thereby attempt some sort of contextualisation. What you call ‘white Americans’ I call ‘Europeans’ but that’s nominal and I only mention it for clarification.

That White Americans have a lot to do with the present plight of many African Americans (not all) is something with which I’d agree, though once again I’d reiterate that talking of it as a ‘black against white’ or ‘white on black’ issue is stupidly divisive and is nothing but a rabble-rousing ploy from where I’m stood.

You see I don’t believe that for a second. There’s always a choice.

Of course! Im not saying there’s no choice. But what I am saying, is that that choice is significantly affected by the individuals circumstances. If you come from a place where all you see is crime, and this self-defeatist attitude, your more than likely to choose that attitude.

No, you are simply more likely to go down that route than someone coming from my sort of background. I think that you overplay it in saying that it’s ‘more than likely’…

The reasons why are numerous, but survival being one of the most prominent. You adapt to your surroundings to survive. Those that realize their choices are more plentiful, I believe to simply be more evolved. This goes into theoretical concepts, but it explains why some can get out of this mentality, and some cant. Choice is invariably affected by your past, its impossible to be able to choose freely.

Of course, choice is always ‘a choice from options’, but there is always a degree of choice.

By that token it would appear that everyone only has such a tiny number of experiences of life that drawing any conclusions about anything like history, racism, nationality, social identity and so on is reckless arrogance. Also, you say that the majority is not like you - how do you know given that you haven’t got personal experience of them?

Do you see why that is such a dead-end criticism?

Because I do have personal experience of them. I used to be like them, I changed, they didnt. If they felt they could truly change and grow beyond their lives, they would. But they dont see it being probable. I mean of course I havent got personal experience of all of them, but Ive talked to many, for as I said earlier, I attempt to help those who were in the same position as me. I mean if you believe you are who you are, and it cant change, then thats your reality, and believe me, thats the majorities reality. America is full of self-defeatist, our society makes it so.

But none of this escapes your criticism of me that I don’t know what it is like to be black (or more specifically, a poor African American). By implication your argument is that people can only speak from their own experience and therefore you aren’t in a position to talk about white people because you can’t know what it is like to be white (or specifically, a white middle class racist).

And I getting through on this point? Ultimately if we can only talk about ourselves individually or even divided up by racial/cultural definitions then it means that conversations between groups are pointless.

I mean dont get me wrong here, I see your argument, but Im speaking from true experience.

But your true experience limits what you can say as much as it justifies it…

My point is that (although this only occurs in certain respects in US culture it is prevalent in UK culture) in many circumstances being a white male is a serious disadvantage. The usual narratives of women being the most downtrodden or blacks being the most downtrodden or muslims being the mostdowntrodden or Jews being the most downtrodden (…) don’t bear an awful lot of weight, to me they all sound like buck-passing and naysaying.

Im sorry this is your experience, but each of these groups you’ve pointed out have the right and reasons to express themselves in the way they do, just as you do from your position. You cannot deny that. Try not to evaluate it from your limited POV.

I’m not denying in any way their ‘right’ to talk about that, just as I retain the ‘right’ to criticise their views and them for holding them when I consider it to be contradictory to the stated aim of harmony.

No, I’m saying, bluntly, that someone might call a black person a nigger for non-racist reasons. They might hate the guy because he scored higher on a test that they wanted to do well in, or got a job that you wanted, or because he got to go out with a desireable female, or got a vital position on a schools sports team or any number of other reasons and the intention is to inflame and insult but I wouldn’t call that racism in the same sense as institutional racism in the Metropolitan Police force.

I dont doubt that there could be essentially non-racist reasons for someone to get upset, but this already prevelant racist attitude that exist, most often subconsciously, is triggered; and this triggering makes the issue an issue of race. “Damn that guy scored higher than me on the test. Stupid nigger”. This situation, plausible, but not likely. It more so goes like this. The first statment is more of a subconscious dialogue if there can be such: I see this black guy. “Damn he scored higher than me on the test. Stupid nigger.”

It may well be conscious or unconscious, that’s not really the issue. The issue is whether the intent is to categorise and derogate on the basis of race.

Take as an analogy the football fans who used to chant at David Beckham (re: his wife)

“Posh Spice takes it
Posh Spice takes it
Posh Spice takies it up the Arse!-nal”

Was their intent to mock Beckham because his wife has on occasion enjoyed anal sex? No, their intent was to put him off his game by any verbal means available. However, fans are allowed to chant this sort of thing but if they make monkey noises at a black player they are banned for life…

Just consider this as an analogy (no pun intended), it might not be particularly relevant to you…

You cant downplay the physical, I mean its the first thing we see. You see the skin color first, therefore all racial attitudes if they exist are already triggered. Sorry, but if you dont call that “institutional” racism, you’ve got a lot more thinking to do.

I don’t deny that IF this happens THEN it is internalised racism. “Institutional racism” is something that happens in institutions…

What I’m questionning is whether or not every perceived slur (or other prejudice) against blacks is accurate. My point being that stereotyping cuts both ways, the black kid who thinks “stupid white bastard talking on his mobile phone, he’s probably racist and ignoring me because I’m black and that’s why he just walked into me” when the white guy might not have seen the guy at all and would have accidentally walked into him regardless of race. For the black guy (and I’ve met black people who do think like this) they’ve been the victim of yet another racial slur.

The local kids in my town look at me a bit funny because I’m tall, often wear a full beard and have long hair. They shout all kinds of nonsense, in particular that I’m ‘gay’. Now I’m not gay (far as I know) and I’m pretty sure none of these kids are actually homophobic, they are just using words in a stupid manner without really thinking about it at all.

Can you imagine a black person hating a white person and saying anti-white things for reasons other than hating white people? Perhaps because of their own shitty situation which they resent? No? You can’t imagine this? I find it ludicrous that you interpret every act of aggression in literal terms…

First of all, I dont consider racism to be hate. Its bias against another. Being less partial to a race. If you change hate to being less partial, then definetely no I do not see this happening.

Look at the title of this thread…

Even though the reasons may not initially be racist, they become an issue of race, because the racist attitude is there. It may be covered up really well, but its there, and it simply being there makes for the reason to be clouded with this attitude.

And that’s the claim I dispute. You seem to think that anyone who calls a black person a ‘nigger’ is a racist (presuming they are not black themselves) and is probably unconsciously doing this. The same argument is used by EVERY group that wants to make out how oppressed it is, claiming of whatever the ‘target’ group is ‘you don’t even know that you’re doing it’. This is a ludicrous, presumption-laden argument.

Where are you getting that I interpret every act of aggression in literal terms? How can you make this assumption?

Because you don’t seem to be able to understand that a white girl might call a black girl ‘nigger’ for reasons other than being racist. To you, because of the blinkers constructed by how you have to talk about such issues, there is a simple 1 to 1 correlation.

Now, it is invariably possible that because of the already imminent racist attitude, that one sees one of the many stigmas that are associated with the particular race they are observing, and therefore expresses the racist attitude against the observed.

Why are you using all this postmodern jargon for something that is essentially quite simple? Black people can be observers too…

Ummm, this is evident. I never said we werent observers. And I didnt imply it either.
[/quote]
My mistake, I thought that you were resorting to Said-esque rhetoric.

So now racists don’t even know that they’re being racist, but you do? Is that what you are saying?

Yes. The majority, yes I said majority again, often dont realize the beliefs they hold are racist.

Just as you don’t believe that you are racist despite believing (without a shred of evidence) that all these people think in the same way…

I don’t mean to offend you but if you persist in this argument I’ll persist in pointing out how it is racist.

Any stereotypical belief of a race can be perceived as a racist remark, even though the intent may not be so.

‘Can be perceived as’ is not the same as ‘is’

Often times these stereotypical beliefs are what indeed create bias towards another race, for in comparing the stereotype to yourself or your own race; if there is much difference, one often comes to the point to where they feel slightly better than the stereotyped race in relation to this particular belief, giving that person a racial attitude, whether they realize it or not. I am obviously aware of this process.

‘Racist’ signifiers do not necessarily signify racism…

Yes, but these elements are invariably limited by our situations. We always attempt to evaluate someone else’s situation from our own perspective and abilities, this shouldnt be done and has no merit.

As I said, if that is the case then all of your ‘I’m so aware, I’m switched on, I know what things really are and am so conscious of everything’ spiel is completely worthless and this conversation is grossly arrogance by all parties involved…

Agreed. But how can my “Im so aware” spiel be worthless, when it is from my perspective, my experience?

Because if people can only speak from their own experience then your experience isn’t necessarily any more valid, informed, sensible or intelligent than anyone else’s. If we lack any shared standards of consideration then all conversation is futile.

Oh my, this is what you dont understand. There is no attempt to alleviate responsibility, people realize that in order to change and for things to get better, that a personal change must occur.

I thought you said that the majority were stuck in their ways and that you were part of the minority in realising that things much change on all sides… This would appear to directly contradict this argument.

I agree that what I’ve said could be misleading, me using the word people. But you’ve obviously misinterpreted me and have taken what I have said out of context. The word people refers to those who we were talking about, the ones who are obviously aware of the state of African Americans, and have decided to speak up about it. These individuals are the minority, and their obviously self-aware enough to where they realize a change must occur in the individual. There are no contradictions.

But your objection ‘what you don’t realise’ was to me describing the majority, not the minority. Therefore your criticism of my argument is completely invalid.

The heritage is there in British museums and in the African countries from which your ancestors were taken. And in slave literature.

lol you dont get this either. You can say your ancestors were enslaved, and its obvious you’ve been able to somewhat trace back your lineage. This task for us is completely different. I dont know what tribe Ive derived from. My great-grandmother and my grandparents dont know. That heritage is lost. Im speaking of more than just a general heritage here. I come from a specific tribe, with a specific culture, and I dont know any of it.

And I don’t know precisely what my ancestors were doing 300 years ago or 400 years ago but I don’t consider that to have to be relevant to my present sense of identity. Indeed there’s no requirement for such knowledge unless you create one in your own mind. I don’t have anything more than a general heritage but I’m not whinging and blaming my failings on that…

History gets destroyed, get over it. History is constantly being rewritten and as such there’s nothing morally wrong with destroying a section of it. This is a spurious complaint that you are simply reiterating because it’s yet another one of the classic ‘lines’ on this issue. The Greeks are no longer a race of philosophers and mathematicians but you don’t hear them complaining…

No you can’t, because you only have one person’s tiny little collection of experiences and a bunch of hearsay which could all be totally untrue, by the standard you employed against my arguments above…

Yes I can, because these are my experiences in America that I am speaking from. It might be limited, but my perspective is relevant.

‘Relevant’ by a standard you yourself have arbitrarily constructed. If I can’t assess your position due to not being an African American then you cannot assess my position due to being an African American. Ergo you cannot dismiss my view are irrelevant. Your argument is self-defeating.

Life in the UK is pretty damn good, and is a helluva lot better in many regards than it was 15 years back under the arse end of Thatcher’s government…

In this country TV has been part of a deliberate multicultural integration policy (in particular the BBC) which has helped stem the tide of racism, inform all sides concerned and had led to (for the most part) a respectable harmony. Your blanket blaming of television is comical - if that is truly your level of argument then I think that I’m probably wasting my time…

Ill give you this one. The UK is definetely a deviation from the norm in considering the declining nature and mentality of individuals, at least in violence. But television definetely desensitizes people to the likes of violence and sex… there are studies that have proven this.

No, there are studies that have dubiously indicated this. From what I’ve read practically all theoretical writings on TV (psychological, cultural, philosophical) are absolute rot. Indeed most criticism of mass media is absolute rot.

That’s funny, because in this post you said, “Oh my, this is what you dont understand. There is no attempt to alleviate responsibility, people realize that in order to change and for things to get better, that a personal change must occur.”

These statements, that people realise personal change must occur, and people being set in their ways, would appear to be totally contradictory…

You have taken what I said out of context for an attempt to label my statements contradictory.

Not at all, your objections were regarding a statement I made about the majority which you then claim referred to the minority.

Of course, which is why in the English education system they teach you both. It’s called studying history properly, looking for potential bias in sources, looking for how arguments are being constructed and whether other interpretations are possible. Funnily enough I can read a history book without being taken in by everything it says…

What English education system are you referring to? Oh you must mean the UK or something, I know you arent talking about America.

By the English education system I mean (unsurprisingly) the education system in England.

Also, the discussion wasnt about how the knowledge is obtained and interpreted but about the selective nature of the knowledge presented.

Which can be identified by the critical reader, which is precisely my point! I can read a source and be aware that it might be biased and might be inaccurate and that secondary commentaries might be highly selective in their use of evidence. That’s because I’ve studied history properly, not because I’m black and can therefore ‘read between the lines’ and ‘uncover the truth’ and all the rest…

Hardly, I’ve just studied history other than the history of America and African Americans and am therefore aware of worse things having happened, worse crimes having been committed for similarly stupid reasons…

Of course, now I can understand why you attempt to downplay my position, because you’ve read about worse. Well, I thank you for your perspective, its truly erudite, and even though it bothers me a little bit, I commend you for being so adamant about how the African Americans situations dont compare.

It isn’t that they don’t compare, it’s that every narrative of this kind aims at the end of its ‘protected’ group being declared ‘the most fucked-over in history’ or something more polite. It’s like everyone is fighting to prove that they are more oppressed than everyone else and I know that if they put that energy into furthering their lives they’d realise just how unoppressed they really are…

To repeat: every group is discriminated against in different ways. The history of slavery is long and unpleasant and given that there are still slaves in the world today I’m more concerned about them than a few million African Americans whinging about something that happened 150 years ago.

Do you see where I’m coming from on this?

No, it wasn’t anything as comprehendable as a massive difference in colour of skin (and shape and size of skull, relative limb measurements and other superficial features which can of course be interpreted in any number of ways), it was simply that the people were poor and stupid and easily exploited…

Are you poor and stupid? I still have my dark skin.

Yes, but it no longer carries the connotations it once did. Do you work on a cotton plantation? Will your foot be cut off if you leave? Can you vote? Can you educate yourself voluntarily?

You act as though being black means that you are equivalent to a slave, which is absolutely fucking dreadful. There are so many black people in the world (and others) who in a far worse position that most African Americans but you are too blinkered and short sighted to realise it. I don’t mean to offend you but your voluntary ignorance is disgusting…

No, because you are born into a poor family and in our culture there is no movement of social status due, in part, to contemporary Christian determinist theology…

So, as stupid a reason as being black…

Definetely agreed.

Do you therefore see the parrallel?

In which case you have no idea of the suffering endured over several millenia by my ancestors and have no idea of the suffering endured presently by white British middle class humanities students like me because you aren’t a white British middle class humanities student and have no comparable experience and therefore you simply cannot make a comparison. Is the absurdity of this argument clear to you yet?

I dont see the absurdity in either case. I respect your position, just as you should respect mine. I mean I believe you, but I wont allow you to downplay my position without me speaking up about it. Thats the whole reason for this discussion.

I’m not downplaying your position, I’m demonstrating how it is flawed…

I thought that you weren’t fighting, I thought that you admitted that most people held a defeatist attitude and were set in their ways?

This isnt a conscious fight against someone or something thats going on now. Its a fight for jobs, a fight for decent income, a fight for getting out of the hood. Thats the fight were faced with now.

No offence but that’s the fight facing everyone these days, not just black people. That you (yet again) seek to make this a ‘black’ issue is ignorant, selective and racist.

I must admit that I’m puzzled more than anything by your latest attempts at an argument. Your withdraw into ‘you aren’t in my position so you can’t say anything about it’ is an utterly absurd argument which renders all conversation and argument pointless. Then you keep contradicting yourself on the issue of how most African Americans see their plight, and accuse me of historical ignorance. This is a baffling tactic and I fear that nothing further can be made of this exchange.

The conversation isnt pointless, its just self-referenced. And there was no contradiction expressed.

No, just racism, utterly selective use of history, dubious assertions about the thoughts of people that you’ve never met and an utterly contradictory withdrawal into ‘people can only talk for themselves’.

I have to tell you, I dont enjoy arguing. I used to be wonderful at it, and had all kinds of ways to win. Now, I am more peaceful when it comes to any situation, and my striving to attain a level of no desire would inevitably have me not desiring to to express myself. But I havent quite reached my pennacle, and when you attempted to express in your post reasons why blacks shouldnt have the positions of being upset at the white man, it hurt me. I mean it really struck a blow to me for you to think there was no justification for this. You presented a lot of truth, but regardless of all you’ve expressed, there is still the truth that we suffered, and as a result still suffer in many ways. I mean how can you say we shouldnt have this mentality when most of us do? Theres obviously something more going on than just a choice to be this way. I simply wanted you to see my perspective, while so many people dont take in consideration other peoples perspectives. Truth is, you arent in my position, and I have a right to express it, just as you do. I simply didnt appreciate you downplaying the experience my ancestors have had, and in which I am now still affected by. Its my experience, and its my truth. You can disagree and bring up other experiences all day. But Im going to always have my experience. I truly thank you for allowing me to speak how I feel about the situation.

And I genuinely hope that you keep on talking, despite how infuriating I find your argument in places. I mean no offence, really I don’t, and if I have offended you I apologise. But I can’t stand idly by when presented with arguments that I feel in the present climate are not only flawed, they are potentially very dangerous. As I say, in Britain things are somewhat different and in some sense much better, but the same arguments and nonsense and propaganda still gets bandied about.

[aspacia]

@someoneisatthedoor

Dear aspacia,

This is turning into quite an interesting conversation, conducted in a good spirit.

LOL, Imp just nailed me for calling a poster racist and sexist. I had it coming and this was an ad hom, but then Imp called me “stupid” resorting to ad hom as well. Hilarious. Damn, I sure made some major typos, or is it just brain damage from grading too many student there, their, thier, they’re errors, subject verb agreement, etc. Sorry to all for the messiness.

@aspacia

SIATD, you have only recently started to feel the sting of discrimination. I felt it for more than twenty years, and Blacks and other minorities have felt it for there entire lives.

I’m in my early 20s. I’ve grown up in a world where white men are blamed for absolutely everything, where I have been blamed (usually only by implication, but since a lot of sexism and racism is only by implication…) for things that happened centuries prior to my birth.

Ah, no wonder you were angry when we were discussing sexism. I am sorry as I had not considered this. You and I are not responsible for what others do or for what our ancestors did. Similar to you, I am sick of the victim game, get over it and get on with life. Yes, much discrimination has happened, it was wrong. Many Native Americans were nailed big time by the colonists, but they also nailed each other big time, burning and skinning enemies alive, Whites enlslaved Blacks, but Whites also fought the bloodiest war in our history partially to free them. Blacks enslaved Blacks, Arabs enslaved Arabs and many other groups to boot. History is full of this, and playing the victim, tit for tat, you were bad game will not get anyone ahead in life.

I personally have never failed to get a job because I was up against an army of disabled black welsh lesbians but I see this sort of bias affecting so many people with whom I share a gender and skin colour and (and this is the kicker for me) the media is almost entirely uncritical about such stereotyping.

Yes, all media has major biases, at the moment I am really ticked regarding Western medias liberal biases, they do not report all sides of the issues and play the pc game.

For me it has been a lifelong experience of assumption and prejudice predicated on my skin colour, gender and social class.

I just had a go round with another new White, liberal instructor attempting to lecture me about Hispanic cultural difference and my maiden name is Candelaria. Stopped her cold in her tracks.

I’m not whinging,

I have seen you use this word often, and am not familiar with it. Do you mean whining?? Just asking, as U.S. spelling, (i.e. airplanes vs. aeroplanes) differs from the queen’s English.

I’m not moaning, I understand why this happens and the history that has led us to this time. Take the opening post - if I’d posted ‘Do you hate the black man?’ as a thread title and then cited a song which denounced the black race as stupid, ugly, corrupt and uncivilised do you think that the ensuing discussion would have been civilised? Do you think that I could get away with such a thread in the philosophy section? Now the truth is that I could probably get away with almost anything on this forum because I’m a frequent contributor and I get on with the moderators but you see the discursive distinction I’m making, I hope.

And yes, I found the opening post stereotyping, doing the same that the Whites did to many other ethnic groups.

I am sick of the victim game, and trust me I have been victimized by the system and my ex., but have stopped being really upset as it eats too much time and energy and am a respected member of society as a woman and an instructor, bout time, and it took time.

Fair enough, and credit to you. But can you see how, in brief moments, illativemind (clearly someone who has suffered from racism but for the most part intelligently rises above it) lapses into the apologist dogma that only repeats and maintains the problems of yesterday? That’s one of the points of interest for me, how easily intelligent people fall back on auld metaphors and metonyms (among other quirks) when discussing issues. I mentioned Orwell’s essay on Politics and the English Language on another thread and I wish I had the time to outline how it is relevant here. Perhaps tomorrow.

Ah, the poster did say he or she still encounters discrimination in Tennesse, and this still occurs in the South and throughout much of the world. The poster is still suffering from the ignorance, and generally those who are ignorant tend to be racist as it appears the original poster may be against Whites.

Remember, I love my father and deeply miss the old guy, and love my other half, who I also deeply miss, but he will join me when I have tenure, ah Sunday, Sunday and winter break and I am home for a few weeks.

Do you live somewhere other than home during term time?

Yep, am in a suburb of Sin City and my other half is in Redlands. No sense in him moving until I have tenure. We have property and renters are often an expensive pain. They have set me back more than $5,000 for evictions and property damage. Hell, I cannot support them, and have to meet a mortgage regardless if they pay the rent or not.

It is very simple, if you live in the a place like Tennesse and suffer discrimination, move to a more liberal climate like California. SIATD, if you feel victimized, I hope you earn employment in a very Tory type conservative company. Actually, you might consider a solid red state in the U.S.

I don’t feel victimised, I’m just pointing out how in countries where there is a progressive policy of informing from school level upwards and trying to combat racial/ethnic prejudice head on there has been a tendency towards making white males into a symbolic figure of what we are trying to overcome, which as a real (i.e. non-symbolic) white male is hard to swallow.

Yes, and many are fighting against Affirmative Action. Also, the UK appears to be much more liberal than much of the U.S.

I was so sick of California and illegal immigration I left after 52 years, left my 80 year-old mother and my other-half as I HATE THE LIBERAL BS IN THE STATE. Because I support a strong border and am against ILLEGALS, I WAS CALLED RACIST and my maiden name is Candelaria. Geez, everyone seems to have a name for everyone else.

Ah, here we go again. Tell me when the KO happens.

But of course all I can do is take advantage of what I have got (which is certainly a lot) and try to make something special of myself. I’m not going to blame people like him for my lack of success (should I lack success)…

True, success is often a choice. Some students whine “I am so poor” what student isn’t poor, I was poor while attending university. They are provided a tax paid k-12 education and often are provided tax paid grants inexpensive dorms and food vouchers for the cafeteria, and then there are scholarships, and Medical for them while attending college or university. Most countries do not have this. Also, in the U.S. being admitted to a University is no problem if a students gpa is high enough. I graduated with a $30,000 education and only a $3,000 loan to pay back. It is a choice.

[aspacia]

@illativemindindeed

Thank you for pointing this out for me. Your absolutely right, but you were also. Thats the whole reason I responded as I did. You cant forget the “white mans’” role in American slavery, no matter how much you attempt to ascribe blame to others.

Yes, Frederick Douglas, and many other Black authors from this time are quite eloquent pointing this out. When most of the world banned slavery, the U.S. continued using it in the South. This is one of the reasons the South lagged behind the industrial North, too much dependence on slave labor and an antiquated aristocracy system.

I dont overlook anything. Im aware of everything your telling me. Thank you for the reinteration, but I am not focusing on Africans’ or Blacks’ in general my friend, I am speaking about the position in reference to African Americans. I know exactly what the Africans did and the role they played in African Americans enslavement. But, in the limited minisclue non significant relative position I derive from, white Americans had a lot to do with our current state. It cant be downplayed from my position, because I have truly lived these effects.

Yes, the lack of education, jobs, even using certain facilities. Black slaves were denied an education, then after the Civil War many Whites called Blacks stupid. This problem still continues in that many Black parents are not well-educated, a carry over from the slave days, and cannot help their children with homework. Do not misunderstand, currently, the Black middle-class is growing by leaps and bounds and I hope this continues, and am doing my best to ensure it continues. Society is trying to change this.

What bothers me is the recent bs regarding Katrina and many Black political leaders were making points regarding the White racists. Yesterday, a damn in Missouri broke and many Whites nailed. Not one Black leader said boo about this. Also, many Black leaders made a big stink regarding the recent execution of Tookie (sp) Williams and described it as a lynching. Please, the man murdered four people and co-founded the Crypts, you know kill someone to join the club. He was on death row for more than 20 years and his case was often appealed.

Of course! Im not saying there’s no choice. But what I am saying, is that that choice is significantly affected by the individuals circumstances. If you come from a place where all you see is crime, and this self-defeatist attitude, your more than likely to choose that attitude. The reasons why are numerous, but survival being one of the most prominent. You adapt to your surroundings to survive. Those that realize their choices are more plentiful, I believe to simply be more evolved. This goes into theoretical concepts, but it explains why some can get out of this mentality, and some cant. Choice is invariably affected by your past, its impossible to be able to choose freely.

Yes, I see your point. Hum, and if a child’s grandparents are “gangstas,” the odds are the child we be a “gangsta” too, but isn’t this the parent’s fault. This bit of baggage I refuse to carry, and society should not have to carry it as well. I have students who leave campus and have to go home to care for their siblings as Mom and Dad are working two jobs. Hum, why have children if you aren’t able to care and nurture them.

Because I do have personal experience of them. I used to be like them, I changed, they didnt. If they felt they could truly change and grow beyond their lives, they would. But they dont see it being probable.

But daily instructors encourage them to change and grow, they can succeed and we pay big tax $ to help them succeed. Parents need to encourage their children to change as well.

I mean of course I havent got personal experience of all of them, but Ive talked to many, for as I said earlier, I attempt to help those who were in the same position as me. I mean if you believe you are who you are, and it cant change, then thats your reality, and believe me, thats the majorities reality. America is full of self-defeatist, our society makes it so.

And then they whine and call the society racist for their attitude.

Im sorry this is your experience, but each of these groups you’ve pointed out have the right and reasons to express themselves in the way they do, just as you do from your position. You cannot deny that. Try not to evaluate it from your limited POV.

Chuckle, Jews and Asians do not give-up, the struggle to survive and succeed. Blacks can to the same.

What also bothers me, is Blacks calling each other N… I have mentioned this to Black students as it is a slur. Many have tried to explain this away, but IMO Blacks are degrading themselves by using this term, which continues the self-defeatist attitude.

[someoneisatthedoor]

Dear aspacia,

@aspacia

LOL, Imp just nailed me for calling a poster racist and sexist. I had it coming and this was an ad hom, but then Imp called me “stupid” resorting to ad hom as well. Hilarious. Damn, I sure made some major typos, or is it just brain damage from grading too many student there, their, thier, they’re errors, subject verb agreement, etc. Sorry to all for the messiness.

I’m just waiting to get told off for my prior post, I’ll probably edit it for politeness lest Imp decideds to lock the thread or something similarly draconian…

@aspacia

SIATD, you have only recently started to feel the sting of discrimination. I felt it for more than twenty years, and Blacks and other minorities have felt it for there entire lives.

I’m in my early 20s. I’ve grown up in a world where white men are blamed for absolutely everything, where I have been blamed (usually only by implication, but since a lot of sexism and racism is only by implication…) for things that happened centuries prior to my birth.

Ah, no wonder you were angry when we were discussing sexism. I am sorry as I had not considered this. You and I are not responsible for what others do or for what our ancestors did. Similar to you, I am sick of the victim game, get over it and get on with life. Yes, much discrimination has happened, it was wrong. Many Native Americans were nailed big time by the colonists, but they also nailed each other big time, burning and skinning enemies alive, Whites enlslaved Blacks, but Whites also fought the bloodiest war in our history partially to free them. Blacks enslaved Blacks, Arabs enslaved Arabs and many other groups to boot. History is full of this, and playing the victim, tit for tat, you were bad game will not get anyone ahead in life.

You see, as a young person growing up into this world but not having created much of it I get an awful lot of the same insults and other nasty shit from the previous generations but without necessarily having any connection to it. I’m not racist in the slightest, personally I find middle Easterners and Far East Asians to be the smartest people in the world, and for the most part Southern Europeans are smarter than Northern ones. And I’m very much a Northern European who takes considers intelligence an important virtue. I dunno about America, it’s a bit hard to make any broad brush statements about the relative intelligence of the various racial groups because America is such an amalgamation of different peoples.

I did enjoy hearing an old black woman (of Carribean origin) phoning into the radio the other day to point out how biased the presentation of racism is in the popular media, how it is only ever presented as being something done by white males and that the courts seem to support this. I don’t know for sure but I get the impression that very very few countries could hold a public phone-in radio discussion on racism and the movement towards harmony where an old black woman (who probably has as much reason as anyone to dislike young white males) would call in and condemn the media for their one-dimensional portrayal of racial conflict.

That’s why I love living in this country, because stuff like that happens and makes you think that perhaps we are essentially a peaceful bunch who might sooner or later work out some way of being peaceful in the proper manner…

I personally have never failed to get a job because I was up against an army of disabled black welsh lesbians but I see this sort of bias affecting so many people with whom I share a gender and skin colour and (and this is the kicker for me) the media is almost entirely uncritical about such stereotyping.

Yes, all media has major biases, at the moment I am really ticked regarding Western medias liberal biases, they do not report all sides of the issues and play the pc game.

As I mentionned, I wrote a dissertation piece on PC in contemporary British soap operas. I worked my ass off on that essay and got a good mark and one conclusion I came to was that certain sections of the media do show an intelligent approach to PC stereotyping and rhetoric. Unsurprisingly the TV shows I had in mind are my favourite shows…

My girlfriend wrote her dissertation on Fredrick Douglass, incidentally. I noticed that you’d mentioned him. I edited the essay for her (with my cruel, obsessive approach to clarity in argument, which can be a help and a hindrance) and she ended up getting the award in her year for the best literature dissertation. It is in discussions with her that I’ve learnt a lot about this topic, contrary to her beliefs about herself she’s actually very smart and a mine of interesting info.

For me it has been a lifelong experience of assumption and prejudice predicated on my skin colour, gender and social class.

I just had a go round with another new White, liberal instructor attempting to lecture me about Hispanic cultural difference and my maiden name is Candelaria. Stopped her cold in her tracks.

You see then how easy it is, even for intelligent people, to use tags and make presumptions thoughtlessly.

I’m not whinging,

I have seen you use this word often, and am not familiar with it. Do you mean whining?? Just asking, as U.S. spelling, (i.e. airplanes vs. aeroplanes) differs from the queen’s English.

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=whinging

From ‘whinge’, to complain or protest

I like the word in part because one can adopt a faux-aristocratic air when accusing someone of whinging and over-pronounce the H at the start of the word…

I’m not moaning, I understand why this happens and the history that has led us to this time. Take the opening post - if I’d posted ‘Do you hate the black man?’ as a thread title and then cited a song which denounced the black race as stupid, ugly, corrupt and uncivilised do you think that the ensuing discussion would have been civilised? Do you think that I could get away with such a thread in the philosophy section? Now the truth is that I could probably get away with almost anything on this forum because I’m a frequent contributor and I get on with the moderators but you see the discursive distinction I’m making, I hope.

And yes, I found the opening post stereotyping, doing the same that the Whites did to many other ethnic groups.

And therein lies a demon, I feel. If we genuinely want to stamp out racism or at least punish it we must do so consistently, across all groups. Otherwise we are simply using the massive power of institutional justice to reinforce the barriers between those groups and therefore foster more resentment and anger…

I am sick of the victim game, and trust me I have been victimized by the system and my ex., but have stopped being really upset as it eats too much time and energy and am a respected member of society as a woman and an instructor, bout time, and it took time.

Fair enough, and credit to you. But can you see how, in brief moments, illativemind (clearly someone who has suffered from racism but for the most part intelligently rises above it) lapses into the apologist dogma that only repeats and maintains the problems of yesterday? That’s one of the points of interest for me, how easily intelligent people fall back on auld metaphors and metonyms (among other quirks) when discussing issues. I mentioned Orwell’s essay on Politics and the English Language on another thread and I wish I had the time to outline how it is relevant here. Perhaps tomorrow.

Ah, the poster did say he or she still encounters discrimination in Tennesse, and this still occurs in the South and throughout much of the world. The poster is still suffering from the ignorance, and generally those who are ignorant tend to be racist as it appears the original poster may be against Whites.

I’m not disputing that plenty of African Americans still suffer from racism at the hands of other groups in the US. What primarily concerns me, as ever, is not the acts of racism themselves but the discourse we use to describe and argue about them.

Do you live somewhere other than home during term time?

Yep, am in a suburb of Sin City and my other half is in Redlands. No sense in him moving until I have tenure. We have property and renters are often an expensive pain. They have set me back more than $5,000 for evictions and property damage. Hell, I cannot support them, and have to meet a mortgage regardless if they pay the rent or not.

Must be a pain. I’ve considered a career in teaching but I want to see if I can get into news radio broadcasting instead because it’s a lot less predictable than most media and actually puts you ear-to-ear with real people…

It is very simple, if you live in the a place like Tennesse and suffer discrimination, move to a more liberal climate like California. SIATD, if you feel victimized, I hope you earn employment in a very Tory type conservative company. Actually, you might consider a solid red state in the U.S.

I don’t feel victimised, I’m just pointing out how in countries where there is a progressive policy of informing from school level upwards and trying to combat racial/ethnic prejudice head on there has been a tendency towards making white males into a symbolic figure of what we are trying to overcome, which as a real (i.e. non-symbolic) white male is hard to swallow.

Yes, and many are fighting against Affirmative Action. Also, the UK appears to be much more liberal than much of the U.S.

In some senses, yes. We’ve also had, as I keep mentionning, a specific multiculturalist policy of creating institutions for smaller groups who were (and still are in some ways) underrepresented. Nonetheless it still made the front page of the BBC news when a Hindu man had his turban knocked off his head by a thug which is distressing, but hardly a massive crime of racial or ethnic hatred and I’m sure that if a white homeless person had died that day that it wouldn’t have been as newsworthy…

I was so sick of California and illegal immigration I left after 52 years, left my 80 year-old mother and my other-half as I HATE THE LIBERAL BS IN THE STATE. Because I support a strong border and am against ILLEGALS, I WAS CALLED RACIST and my maiden name is Candelaria. Geez, everyone seems to have a name for everyone else.

Ah, here we go again. Tell me when the KO happens.

But of course all I can do is take advantage of what I have got (which is certainly a lot) and try to make something special of myself. I’m not going to blame people like him for my lack of success (should I lack success)…

True, success is often a choice. Some students whine “I am so poor” what student isn’t poor, I was poor while attending university. They are provided a tax paid k-12 education and often are provided tax paid grants inexpensive dorms and food vouchers for the cafeteria, and then there are scholarships, and Medical for them while attending college or university. Most countries do not have this. Also, in the U.S. being admitted to a University is no problem if a students gpa is high enough. I graduated with a $30,000 education and only a $3,000 loan to pay back. It is a choice.

In this country most people graduate with 10-20 thousand pounds worth of debt, and it has become something of a political squabble. Personally I think that middle class students are lucky to get the 5/6 of their education paid for by the state that they do get. I dunno, it depends on how hard you are willing to work but you could survive on much less and work while studying and still get a good degree in this country.

[Mucius_Scevola]

@aspacia

@Mucius Scevola

I hate the white in the white man, because it gives him the impression that the sun shines brighter off him.

Other than that, he’s ok.

Merry Christmas.

Not only are you a racist, but a sexist as well, I am just waiting for the homphobe side to shine through as well.

I am not a racist, nor a sexist, for you see, I am white myself.

In case I didn’t make myself clear, I hate the white man’s big ego. I criticised the culture, and not one distinct man.