To philosophize is to learn the art of dying”

I came across this quote by Michel de Montaigne – “To philosophize is to learn the art of dying” – in a book I am reading.

Would you agree with it? Have you ever experienced this “dying” (to self)?

The definition of philosophy includes the following:

  1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
  2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning
    rather than empirical methods.
  3. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs
  4. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
  5. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

Love and pursuit of wisdom and truth asks that we be prepared, at times, to drop our assertions and beliefs when we see they no longer work. This is a form of dying.

We must be prepared to keep an open mind and listen to those with opinions and beliefs other than our own (and this sometimes becomes difficult in the face of believing that our opinions and hypotheses are the only good working ones). This too is a form of dying.

We must strive to remain calm, remembering that what is really important are not our views and opinions but rather the search for the truth for its own sake.

We must be prepared to open our minds to endless possibilities that may be beyond the realm of what we feel is cold reality and beyond our conception of what is/could be.

Although I realize that this is all a part of philosophy, I myself have sorely failed in this kind of dying that Montaigne suggests.

I am sure that there are many more examples of how, as Montaigne suggested, to philosophize is to learn the art of dying.

Have you ever “been there?

After having said all of the above, I question whether it would have been better to end this after the definition. But I realize that most times I know nothing.

I don’t hang with the ‘musts’ and the ‘striving’, but it sounds like all that he is refering to is ‘ego’ death, and nothing else. Ego death seems to fill all of his ‘requirements’.

Ego death can be a ‘part’ of 'philosophising, but I have found, generally, that philosophy is nothing more than a mental wank, ego strokes. Intellectual ego. Egoic ‘competitions’…

Yes.

All times, any more, is egoPerspective.

There are as many versions of what philosophy is as there are philosophers.

I’d like to think that philosophy is a means to expanding the imagination and helping people think through the problems of their life more carefully, so as to find the solutions more easily and effectively.

To nameless:

I am not really sure if he is “only” referring to ego death. I tried to search his writing where this came from – Chapter XX of something, but couldn’t find it – but obviously, he was speaking of ego death [also]. It stands to reason that for a philosopher to search for the truth and wisdom (and this also probably sounds like ego, not a bad word certainly), there are human foibles, like arrogance and pride, that necessarily need to be let go of. These are a form of death and dying.

Well, that is certainly one perception. But this is what we are speaking of, right, letting go of these things. But there is beauty in philosophy and in the philosopher who truly strives to find truth, to search for wisdom. And no one is perfect – we are all in the same boat together – or perhaps we can think of it as a fleet of ships, we are in different areas of the ocean but all of us are on our way. As long as we are “on our way” it doesn’t matter where we are. What Michel de Montaigne was speaking of was perhaps the ability/necessity to eliminate the above of which both you and I spoke of. Or do we simply throw the apple away because there is a tiny worm hole. I wouldn’t – I would cut around it, eat it and enjoy it.

Yes, perhaps – and perhaps “ego” perspective is another sign for growth, or trying to at least emerge into being.

Yes, I agree with you there. Another way to look at philosophy and a beautiful one, too.

By the way, when are you going to stop beating up on yourself. (pointing to the right to -----to your avatar). :laughing: :laughing:
Ouch

someoneisatthedoor:

Actually, my mistake. When you read my response, it is actually pointing to my avator, not yours.

But you understand.

If you find that the shoe fits another foot, fine. I don’t see any other shoes that fit so nicely, from Here.

Wait a min (edit moment); “To philosophize is to learn the art of dying” just might also mean that the ‘ego wank’ that is philosophy is such a waste of time ending with nothing but death, that learning philosophy might just as well be seen as learning the ‘art of dying’.
(Tongue slightly in cheek! *__- )

All those who have made claims to ‘Truth’, Wisdom, etc… will agree that they are not ‘found out there’, but it is who we are, always. It is these ‘images’, presented through egoPerspective, of an autonomous ‘self’ (the ‘I’ of “I am ______”… fill in the blank with anything you like, it is all egoic image), that blind us to to the ‘light’; that fills a cup so full of ‘self image’ that there is no room for the ‘light’. “The mirror of Soul (Conscious Perspective) is obscured by the ‘dust’ of ‘ego’.”
In ‘this’ world, there are no ‘bad’ words. There are words. Actually, there are no ‘bad’ anythings or anyones; there just ‘is’ what is.

All ego…
I wouldn’t say ‘foibles’ so much as ‘characteristics’.

Lets just say that there is an inversely proportional relationship between (the Heaven of) Satori/Nirvana and the amount of presently manifested Ego!

That’s one Perspective. I present another.

Yep. That is, perhaps, the reason for so few (and I’m being generous) ‘Enlightened’ philosophers. Their goal, that i have observed, is ‘ego’ related, not ‘Truth’ related. Even philosophy must be left behind, at a certain ‘proximity’ to your ‘goal’, in order to ‘proceed’.

Sentimental balderdash! *__- The ego ‘strives’.

And so we are all Perfect in and as each and every moment of existence, Balanced, Complete and Completely integral in and as the very fabric of the Great Tapestry of (existence) the Moment. Now!

All is most truly, any moment of observation, ‘One’. So I’d agree, we are in the same boat, we and each other and the boat and the entire ocean of existence, is ‘One’.

I think that just being able to recognize ego (master deceiver… knows our every weakness) in it’s myriad disguises, it’s myriad ‘images’, can be considered a sign of, as you say, ‘growth’.
I do not see heirarchy here. I do not see any moment as ‘lesser’ than another; what is, is; Perfectly Balanced, Complete, lacking nothing…
An ego must be recognized by one who stands everything to gain by not finding it.
Who is doing the ‘trying’?
Some moments cannot be ‘achieved’, but ‘relaxed into’.

To live is to learn the art of dying.

To ‘die’ is to learn the ‘art of living’!

I enjoyed reading this thought provoking post.

Agreed, but the tricky part is that the mind twists and contorts the truth and it then becomes difficult to see things how they really are.
The mind becomes deceived by what it thinks is reality and ends up philosophising over illusionary concepts.

The destination or goals of philosophy described above are wonderful and something to aspire to, but the questions remain:
How do we untangle this sticky web type (deceitful) mind?
What is it the mechanism that enables us to discriminate truth from fiction?

This never ceases to confuse me!

I liked … “To live is to learn the art of dying” and it’s partner “To die is to learn the art of living”

The Gentle art of Unity…

The goal of philosophy is truth, to be a lover of wisdom, is to empty oneself of falsehoods. Therefore a true philosopher has no place for crude malformed concepts like:

-ego
-individualism

And to empty oneself to the extent that one masters onself in the area’s of ones life - no longer submittin to the will of your autonomous self (the nervous systems self-preservation systems – egoism, individulism, “I” ism, “me” isms, etc), thinks like:

-vice
-desire
-materialism

And a return to focus on the problems that are the simplest and most often neglected - how to seperate truth from illusions of truth, expose lies, misconceptions, and to attempt to build relationships with other people.

In my opinion socrates and those of that kind of school came close to embodying what philosophy really is - love of truth over falsehood, and aligning/becoming that truth, focusing on what is true and what actually solves problems then what is false/illusionary/temporary, etc.

Most people and claimed philosophers exist in plato’s cave, few ever make it out of the world of illusion. Anyone who says philosophy is a waste of time, simply doesn’t have the ability or the acument to become a philosopher in the first place… it has to be a part of who you are, you have to be willing to question everything, your entire society, and be able to abase your own knowledge upon the arrival of new information pertaining to what is true. Thats my thoughts on the matter.

I believe philosophy is really good, because much of what we think and our judgements are based on petty illusions of our automatic discrimination systems of the nervous system. Philosophy is a way of becoming more god then beast, to use a metaphor, to become a master of your animal nature rather then being a slave to it, to be a god rather then a beast. Empty of hate, a wearyness of pride in knowledge, a knowing how small and lacking in wisdom and understanding you really are (the truth is much bigger then we are, in our short lives…).

A favorite quote of mine and a bit of background on Ibn Al-haytham from wikipedia

Ibn al-Haytham further criticized Ptolemy’s model on other empirical, observational and experimental grounds,[87] such as Ptolemy’s use of conjectural undemonstrated theories in order to “save appearances” of certain phenomena, which Ibn al-Haytham did not approve of due to his insistence on scientific demonstration. Unlike some later astronomers who criticized the Ptolemaic model on the grounds of being incompatible with Aristotelian natural philosophy, Ibn al-Haytham was mainly concerned with empirical observation and the internal contradictions in Ptolemy’s works.[88]

In his Aporias against Ptolemy, Ibn al-Haytham commented on the difficulty of attaining scientific knowledge:

Truth is sought for itself [but] the truths, [he warns] are immersed in uncertainties [and the scientific authorities (such as Ptolemy, whom he greatly respected) are] not immune from error…[8]

He held that the criticism of existing theories—which dominated this book—holds a special place in the growth of scientific knowledge:

Therefore, the seeker after the truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them, but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration, and not to the sayings of a human being whose nature is fraught with all kinds of imperfection and deficiency. Thus the duty of the man who investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to make himself an enemy of all that he reads, and, applying his mind to the core and margins of its content, attack it from every side. He should also suspect himself as he performs his critical examination of it, so that he may avoid falling into either prejudice or leniency.[8]

Ah, yes, as you say it. :smiley:


“Only the hand that erases can write the true thing”. Meister Eckhart

nameless:

And what is it, nameless, that you have observed in making this observation? In what way is truth to be served here in the above statement? Ego can sometimes hide in strange places, can it not?

[/quote]
I agree with you here. But is truth really a “goal” like something to be achieved? There are facts and there is “experience”.
Where does truth “live”?

Being human, anyone who tries to discover the truth, can be waylaid. Have you ever taken a journey and got a little “lost”? What do you do then? Try to find the right path and get back to it, right? The journey is important. Or do you simply judge yourself for having gotten lost and quit?

No human being, and that includes philosophers and/or people who philosophize, who want to find the truth – is perfect.
We are all in the same boat together, and that is a perfect synergy.

You conflate ‘truth’ and ‘wisdom’, offer a ‘personal’ definition, and then offer an erroneous ‘therefore’…
No, a “true philosopher” always takes “crude malformed concepts” (such as those that you seem to biassedly eschew), and through examination and critical thought renders them, if successful, a bit less “crude” and “malformed”.
(I understand avoiding that which causes personal discomfort, though…)

This is ‘religion’, not philosophy… Philosophy has nothing to do with “mastering oneself” or “emptying oneself”, per se.
Philosophically, though, any and everything is fuel for examination and discussion.

Then who is the ‘self’ that masters “oneself”, who or what is being ‘mastered’?

I have observed the debates and arguments with ‘winning them’ as a goal. With ‘changing the minds’ of the ‘deluded opposition’ as a goal, evangelism to support one’s own tenuous imaginings. It is ego that argues with ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ as elements. Just observe some of these discussions and tell me that ego is not involved at many and diverse levels. That is what I observe, that is what i describe.

Neither do I serve ‘truth’ (“The truth that can be ‘served’ is not the Truth!”), nor claim such.
I made an observation, do with it as you must.
Perhaps, ‘truth’ can be better ‘served’ by recognising all facets of it, such as ego, and it’s influences…

Are you calling my observation egoic? Even if so, would it be less valid?

Many feel that it is a goal in their lives, to be achieved, and it is pursued as such. During that sincere ‘search’, one might find that his previous notions of pursuit and achievement were perhaps faulty. Things change as understanding is gained.

I do not divvy up existence in that unsupportable fashion.

“In Silentium, Verum!” -Book of Fudd (1:1)
(“In Silence, Truth!”)

Yeah, so? There are many interesting obstacles (that are not really obstacles) along the way…

Point? I don’t see the relevence of what you are saying. I’m not decrying any ‘path’ at all. All are valid. We all do as we must. There is no ‘choice’ in the matter.

Perhaps. Then again, perhaps all are/is Perfect/Complete, and part of that perfection, that Completeness, is the desire for ‘truth’?
“All apparent disequilibriums contribute to the equilibrium of the Whole.”

I can certainly see that Perspective…