To the Rationalist Christians

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Would Jesus have gathered any disciples if not for his miracles? It doesn’t seem so. They were the reason people followed him, considered him their leader.

And what was the purpose of Jesus’ life besides dying on the cross and resurrecting? The narrative is entirely geared toward that event.

What remains of Jesus when you strip away the supernatural? Sure, some common, or even uncommon decencies. But do they even warrant the fuss before and around his birth?

The plot underlying the Christian religion, whether I believe in it or not, hinges on the supernatural.

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I cannot disagree. And the Jewish traditions would say the same thing, that the miracles he performed were the signs that he was the true Messiah, fulfilling the prophecies. There had been many other “messiahs” before him, claiming to be Christ, but none could supposedly perform the requisite miracles to fulfill prophecy. Only Jesus did those. Hence why he birthed an entire new religious movement and is still revered today by billions of people.

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Yes, the Jews just expected a warrior-messiah who would defeat the Romans. They wanted their kingdom on Earth.

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I’m just curious why this is titled “to the rationalist Christians“?

What do you mean by rationalist? Do you think of all Christians that way, or just certain Christians?

Do you think they/we don’t believe Jesus did miracles?

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It seems obvious to people who have critically examined the Gospels that they were written for a Greek audience by educated people and that the ‘miracles’ were ‘signs’ of the authenticity of Jesus’ message. There is even a passage where Jesus says that his teaching is more important than healing the sick because the sick will still be there when he has gone. The ‘multitudes’ are just a narrative backdrop.

His teaching, if we take to Gospel’s at their word, was about the role of Israel in the world, and their being chosen by God to be a shining example, like a light or like salt, or like a city on a hill. This followed the prophet’s message that external ritual has an inner meaning, and that this had been betrayed by the impurity of the sacrifices. The best example was where he says that no-one should offer a sacrifice before making peace with his neighbour.

Therefore, the zealots who were talking about uprisings even when Jesus was alive were contradicted by this teacher, who said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. His teaching was one of spontaneous compassion, even towards enemies and those who oppressed the people. Go a mile more, give them more than they ask, to show that your riches are not of this world, and follow the commands, “Love the Lord your God with everything you have, and your neighbour as yourself.”

I suggest that this message died with him and his followers due to the uprisings, but was retained in the Gospels. The resurrection is an afterthought, as an attempt to explain how God could allow the tragedy that mistook the ‘prince of peace’ for a rebel-rouser. The divine royalty of Christ, they said, was not of this world. It wasn’t on show like when men of power proclaim their superiority. It was only visible for those with eyes to see.

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I don’t think someone who thinks the resurrection was not a historical event is qualified to speak on behalf of Christians about what was meant in a particular passage of scripture… and never put quotation marks around a paraphrase. Especially a bad one.

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Probably not, but Christ had charisma and persuasive messages/sermons.

Christ did a few major things:

  1. He ‘universalized’ Jewish religion, ideology, and motives, and unveiled their strategies to His followers… He brought an idea that ‘Everybody’ deserves the “Chosen” status of the Judaic tribes. Why should only one group be favored? Why should only one tribe be educated?

  2. He criticized and rebelled against Jewish corruption. He overthrew the moneychanger tables (Banksters). He railed against Jewish rabbis and con-men. He named them (sons) “of the Devil”, indicating a different Patrilineage than His own (Hellenic).

  3. He represents the ‘Cleansing’, ‘Forgiveness’, ‘Perfection’ of the (European) Patriarch over (Jewish) Matriarch. Christ represents a balance between European/Hellenic Masculinity and Jewish Femininity, hence the “Judæo-Christian” identification to this day. Christians are supposed to represent a moral and ethical balance between European pagans and Abrahamic jews.

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You are deeply confused, both theologically and historically. Your post contains a mix of inaccuracies, anachronisms, antisemitic tropes, and ideological projection.

“Universalized Jewish religion…”

While it’s true that Jesus, in the Christian tradition, opened aspects of the Jewish moral and spiritual worldview to Gentiles, this was not about “unveiling strategies” or presenting Judaism as a conspiracy. The idea that only Jews were “educated” or “favoured” misrepresents Jewish chosenness, which is not about superiority but covenant responsibility. Christianity emerged from within Judaism, not in opposition to it.

“Criticized and rebelled against Jewish corruption…”

Jesus critiqued certain practices by some Jewish leaders of His time, but these were internal critiques from within Judaism — akin to a prophet calling his own community to account. The mention of “Banksters” and connecting moneychangers to modern antisemitic conspiracy theories is extremely problematic and anachronistic.

The line “sons of the Devil” has historically fuelled antisemitic rhetoric but was likely a polemic in a specific context — the Johannine community’s conflict with other Jewish sects — not a universal Christian stance against Jews.

“European patriarch over Jewish matriarch…”

This is a projection of modern (and deeply flawed) racial and gender politics onto ancient texts. There is no evidence that Jesus saw himself in contrast to a “Jewish matriarchal” structure — Judaism in the first century was patriarchal. The idea of a “Hellenic patrilineage” is nonsensical. Jesus was a Galilean Jew. Hellenism influenced the region, but Jesus did not claim Greek ancestry.

“Balance between European masculinity and Jewish femininity…”

This is not a recognized theological concept and seems like a gendered racial metaphor — not a serious interpretation of Christian doctrine. The term “Judaeo-Christian” arose to describe shared moral and scriptural foundations, not racial or gender fusion.

You misrepresent both Judaism and Christianity and you blend conspiracy thinking with pseudo-theology.

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Panthera, a Græco-Roman soldier, is purported to be the ‘Real’ father (therefore the Christian “God”) of Christ… and since my arguments are based in Reality, No Mysticism, then that would mean that Jesus Christ was/is half-European, half-Jewish.

This makes sense when you understand what Greek Hellenic culture was/is, on top of Greek Platonism and Aristotleanism (Universal Metaphysics), and the historical antagonisms between Athens and Jerusalem.

Not really.

Jews are Matrilineal because during their time as Slaves, their Patrilineal fathers were not secured. Many female slaves were raped, taken at any time, males castrated and killed at any time. Egyptian slavery was notoriously brutal. Furthermore, there are many historical accounts of Jewish children being genocided, “first borns” killed, etc. That is why they are ABRAHAMIC religions. That’s why Abraham is the ‘crux’ of their religions and identities.

Their/Your morality revolves around your First Born Son being sacrificed by God’s demand and decree.

I think it might be the case that YOU don’t know what you’re talking about, Bobby-Boy?

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You blend conspiracy thinking with pseudo-theology, as I said before.

See a doctor, go to a therapist, but leave me alone!

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…you responded to me first???

Judaism, coming from the slave populations and peoples, were/are not Patrilineal and Patriarchal because their (slave) fathers could not be counted on for safety, security, or national-identity. This fact also coincides with why/how the Abrahamic ideologies consider it a fatal violation to worship graven images (Idolatry)… “God” cannot be graven into stone, still true to this day in Islam, because it puts God’s Masculinity and Patrilineage into an image.

That stands opposite European Pagnism and Greek Hellenism, which recorded all their Gods into images and iconography. So why would Idolatry be made illegal?

Because those with Absent fathers have a relationship of Resentiment with their Absent father: Bastardization. This was common among the slave classes and castes. There is an animosity inherent within Patrilineage and Patriarchy. That’s why they’re “Abrahamic”. “God” is faceless, and demands of Abraham to kill his first-born Son to fulfill Messianic demands.

The Abrahamic Human Sacrifice of First-Born Son is a direct callback to the Egyptian Pharisees culling his male slave populations (hence, the Jews). Judaism begins in the culling “aka. genocide” of slave populations.

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I should mute/block both Bob and RealUn because they both repeat inaccurate baloney over and over and over.

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But you always avoid discussions with me on Christianity, but just claim it is ‘inaccurate baloney’. There is plenty of evidence for what I have said.

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There’s more “Evidence” for what I’ve said.

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Actually, according to the synoptic gospels, the first disciples followed him before he had done any miracles. According to the Gospel of Mark:

16Passing alongside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. 17And Jesus said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you become fishers of men.” 18And immediately they left their nets and followed him. 19And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20And immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants and followed him.”

So, how shall we look at this? From a supernatural frame of mind you could say that it was a miracle that they followed him. Or, from a naturalistic perspective perhaps there was something charismatic about him. In any case, according to the story it’s right after this that he starts healing people beginning with casting an unclean spirit out of a man in a synagogue. But, no they didn’t start following him because of the miracles.

The timeline in the Gospel John is different. Unlike the synoptics Jesus’s ministry lasts three years not one. Perhaps the synoptic authors condensed Jesus’s ministry into one year for the sake of a symmetrical story arc. Based mostly on John’s gospel would suggest that Jesus was first a disciple of John the Baptist. He began to lead the movement after John was martyred. And John the baptist is not said to have done miracles.

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I’m sure it didn’t help Jesus was also very critical of the Jewish leaders at the time, for their gross materialism and even calling them the synagogue of Satan.

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“The synagogue of Satan” isn’t an expression that Jesus ever uses in the canonical gospels. It’s an expression that is first mentioned in the Book of Revelation by a guy named John who claims that Jesus used it when he appeared to John in a vision. Bible scholars continue to argue about what and who he was referring to. In any case, there is no record of Jesus calling the Jewish leadership that on the streets of Jerusalem.

On the other hand, according to the gospel of John chapter 8, Jesus did tell some Jews that their father was the devil because they rejected him. Who exactly he was referring to is not specified. Sadly, this ambiguity has led some people to apply the epithet to all Jews and thus to support antisemitism.

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Oh ok, my bad, I read only two and a half gospels and not very attentively. What stood out to me is the focus on the miracles and the plot developing toward the resurrection.

So do you think the NT is a deceitful propaganda piece? To me it almost seems like ‘you cant make this stuff up’. And I know of the reality of healing (and making sick, destroying) by hand or at a distance.

Personally, I could believe in the resurrection. I believe in astral and etheric bodies and such. But I have trouble with the bread and the fish.

So Js kingdom is not of this world, and yet it was at hand. I take it you see that a reference to meditative enlightenment. But when I see Christians in a frenzy between weeping and laughter, I see something very different from a yoga- or Zen master.

Im convinced something strange is going on with the guy.

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Not at all. In the New Testament, the Greek words often translated as “miracle” are δύναμις (dunamis), σημεῖον (semeion), and τέρας (teras).
δύναμις (dunamis) means “power” or “ability,”
σημεῖον (semeion) means “sign,” “token,” or “indication.”
τέρας (teras) means “wonder,” “marvel,” or “strange thing.”
So Jesus is said to have displayed extraordinary powers, and to work signs and wonders.

In Indian traditions, Siddhis (Sanskrit: सिद्धि siddhi; fulfillment, accomplishment) refer to supernatural or paranormal powers, abilities, and attainments that are said to be gained through advanced spiritual practices like yoga and meditation. These are not considered the primary goal of spiritual practice, but rather potential byproducts. The term is also used in Buddhism, where it’s sometimes translated as “psychic powers”.

But, the Swami’s warn those who seek enlightenment against seeking these kind of powers. Why? Because they are a huge distraction from the ultimate goal. They inflate the ego and can be used for base and immoral activities. The story of Jesus’ temptation in the wilderness shows how Jesus overcomes the devil’s temptation to display his powers. Imagine how pure Jesus had to be to overcome the temptation to use this power for selfish ends. That is the rarest of rare virtues in a man.

Rather, Jesus used his power to heal when he was moved by compassion. His ability to heal was an extension of his acceptance of what ordinary people see as unacceptable. And in that he was displaying the character of God. As he taught” but I tell you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you that you may be children of your father in heaven who causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends the rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

He also said “blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” Pure in heart: that’s the kind of man Jesus was. And he wasn’t interested in being worshiped. He wanted other people to see what he saw. That’s why his disciples were attracted to him.

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Then we agree.

(sentence too short)

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