Trade Vs. Commerce, Commerce = Getting Screwed

Okay, so I started this thread to discuss the fractional reserve system, fiat currency, what free trade really means, what commerce really is, and the pitfalls of central banking.

First I want to establish the difference between trade and commerce. Trade is the exchange of real commodities and/or services with intrinsic value for other commodities/services or monies with intrinsic value. Commerce is the exchange of real commodities and services with intrinsic value for paper notes or electronic financial recordings with assumed value. There is a big difference between assumed value and intrinsic value. Assumed value is something that is only valuable because it has been declared valuable by decree but otherwise has no practical use. An object of assumed value has no practical use, but still retains value because a law is established which requires you to take the object of assumed value as a form of payment under the threat of some sort of penalty.

For those of you who are wondering, there IS a penalty for not taking federal reserve notes and/or other negotiable instruments here in the United States. That penalty is the discharge of the debt owed. It is important that we establish that there is a definite difference between a discharge and a payment. A payment is an exchange of lawful money or a commodity or service with intrinsic value which then eliminates a debt. A discharge on the other hand is simply the relief from obligation of a debt. A common example of a lawful discharge would be a chapter 11 bankruptcy in the united states. The law has been revoked that allows this kind of bankruptcy but up until a few years ago, you could file a chapter 11 and that would relieve you from having to pay your creditors. The debt still was not paid, but the obligation was fulfilled. You would then have those debts as black marks on your credit report, and the companies you owed the debts to would write it off as a loss on their taxes. Had the debt been paid, the creditors would then have to report it as income, rather then writing it off as a loss. It also should be noted that the only lawful money in the United States is Gold and Silver coin per the constitution of the United States which says in Article 1 Section 10: “No state shall make anything but gold and and silver coin a tender in payment of debt”. Federal reserve notes did used to be backed by gold and silver, but even then they were not payment. In order for the debt to be paid, the payee had to take the federal reserve note to his local federal reserve branch and cash it in for gold and silver coin. The debt was then considered lawfully paid. But until the fed note was cashed the debt was simply discharged by law.

So this brings me to my next point. Federal reserve notes do not, can not, and will never pay for anything. There is only one thing a federal reserve note is good for. That thing is discharging a debt. That is it’s only use and function. “Oh, but I pay for things all the time with federal reserve notes!” you say. To which I say, “do you?”. Do you actually pay, or do you discharge the debt. Well you may think you are paying, but in fact the debt is just being discharged which means that the debt is not eliminated. So while it is true that you do not owe any debt any longer for the item which you “purchased”, the debt still exists and has not been paid. You have simply shucked the obligation off of yourself and onto the federal reserve. Now per the constitution in order for the fed to pay the debt, it must be in either gold and silver coin, or services/commodities with intrinsic value. If you take a fed note to the fed, you will soon find out that they will NOT be paying you in gold and silver coin. So then what exactly is this “note” (which means a promise to pay in economics) promising to pay? The answer is as follows:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Note#Value

"Value

The authority of the Federal Reserve Banks to issue notes comes from the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Legally, they are liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks and obligations of the United States government. Although not issued by the Treasury Department, Federal Reserve Notes carry the (engraved) signature of the Treasurer of the United States and the United States Secretary of the Treasury.

Federal Reserve Notes are fiat currency, which means that the government is not obligated to give the holder of a note gold, silver, or any specific tangible commodity in exchange for the note. Before 1964, some notes were “backed” by silver and before 1933, by gold: that is, the law provided that holders of Federal Reserve notes could exchange them on demand for a fixed amount of metal (although from 1934–1971, only foreign holders of the notes could exchange the notes for gold on demand).[2] Since 1964 (see Silver Certificate), Federal Reserve Notes have not been backed by any single specific asset, but are backed by all assets held in collateral by the Federal Reserve, and by the power of the government to collect assets in taxes. While 12 U.S.C. § 411 states that “Federal Reserve Notes. . . shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand” this means U.S. coins. Thus today the notes are backed only by the “full faith and credit of the U.S. government”—the government’s ability to levy taxes to pay its debts. In another sense, because the notes are legal tender, they are “backed” by all the goods and services in the U.S. economy; they have value because the public may exchange them for valued goods and services in the U.S. economy.[3]"

Ahhh! Now we are getting somewhere. Did you get that last part? “backed by all assets held in collateral by the Federal Reserve” and “because the notes are legal tender, they are “backed” by all the goods and services in the U.S. economy” are the key pieces here. Assets? What assets? The assets held in collateral by the federal reserve. In other words, all things purchased with federal reserve notes. So basically, almost everything. In addition, we have “all the goods and services in the U.S. economy” backing the federal reserve notes. In other words, YOUR SLAVERY! So the fed notes are backed by your slavery, the things you produce, and the things which you think you own. So in a clever wording game, the federal reserve has 1. forced you to use their commercial paper which issues a promise to pay on their behalf, 2. Discharged the debt from you to them in the purchase, but then put the debt right back on you by promising YOUR property, YOUR goods, and YOUR labor as payment for the fed notes. If this is somewhat alarming to you, it should be. The fact is that more of these fed notes are circulating in the hands of foreign governments then any other reserve currency in the entire world. These babies were all printed up in mass in order to pay for the largest trade deficit in all of world history. In short, we are being sold as slaves.

So then if you owed me $500, and you came to pay me the money owed and handed me five $100 bills, and I said “sorry sir, but I do not take federal reserve notes, I only take gold and silver coin”. Well I can lawfully refuse your fed notes, but then all you have to do is file an affidavit with the county clerk stating that you offered me fed notes, a check, or promissory note, and the debt is legally discharged just the same as if I had taken the federal reserve notes. The only difference is that I can not then use those federal reserve notes to discharge a debt of my own. So logically, I am going to take the fed notes since I want to be “paid” even though either way the debt is just discharged. After all, lets say that I take the fed notes, and tomorrow the dollar collapses like the deutchmark in the Weimar Republic of the 1930’s. What use then would that paper have to me? None whatsoever. That is hardly a payment. Now if I had gold or silver coin, I could easily trade that for real commodities regardless of the state of the economy at the time.

Now here is the real clencher. According to the uniform commercial code, when you purchase something using a promissory note, unless otherwise stated in a contract, the promising party is the one who technically owns the purchased item. It is like this, lets say you were to send your child (lets say your son, we’ll call him George) to a local store and you knew the owner very well. But you don’t get paid until next week, and you need some milk and bread in the meantime. So you send little Georgie to the store with a note to the grocery store owner saying you want them to give a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk to your son George and you will pay him for the goods next week when you get paid. So the owner recognizing your son decides that he will take you up on that and takes the note, stuffs it into his cash register, and gives the milk and bread to your son who then thanks him and exits. So then who owns the bread and milk at this point? The owner does not since he has legally alienated the goods in exchange for the promissory note. Your son is in possession of the goods, but the way the law is written he does not own the goods anymore then federal express or USPS does when they are delivering an item you purchased remotely on the internet to your doorstep. Instead, as far as the law is concerned via the uniform commercial code you own the goods as soon as the shopkeeper alienates them since it is you who has issued the promise to pay for the goods.

Now, knowing what we know, when you purchase something using federal reserve notes, who is issuing the promise to pay? It is of course the federal reserve. So then who owns the goods? It is again, the federal reserve. As far as the law is concerned, you are just holding the goods for the federal reserve, the interested party who has issued a promise to pay for them. One that is backed by labor and goods of the people of the united states. You see, labor and goods are real commodities with intrinsic value, and the only thing that can actually eliminate the debt other then gold and silver coin. This is how the federal reserve gets away with issuing currency that is backed by seemingly nothing. It is backed by your production. As far as the fed is concerned, they are your lord and they can issue promises to pay based upon your projected future production. Commerce, taxes, and inflation are just polite ways of enslaving you. It is kind of like an indentured servant deal. You get to use the federal reserve’s credit to purchase and use all of the things you need to live, and in return, the federal reserve becomes your master and takes a share of all of whatever you produce. If you produce nothing, they get nothing. But the more you produce, the more they take. It is all a very clever scheme to manipulate people in mass. Banks are much more of a threat then any standing army. The founding fathers of the constitution and declaration of independence realized this, and warned of it. But nobody listened, and here we are now, total slaves to elitist financial oligarchs.

However, the slavery is voluntary and we can take the power back quickly, easily, and non violently. It is so simple. All we have to do is pull all of our money out of the banks. That money is leveraged over 50:1 via loans and their derivatives. If 10% of the population of the united states pulled all of their money out all at once, the whole system would collapse world wide in a huge global economic contraction. The money would stop flowing to their thugs and political puppets. Corporations based on commerce would collapse. The whole system would fall over like a house of cards.

Only problem is that it would then make it necessary for people to provide for their own subsistence. Most people are not at all equipped or knowledgeable enough to do this. But I think a collapse is inevitable anyway. The only question will be whether it is through hyper-inflation, or deflationary depression, and whether it is on our terms or theirs. At least this way, we could plan for it and it will lessen the damage…

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=165550&p=2018755&hilit=+just+stop+banks+#p2018755

It doesn’t answer to your entire post, I’ll probably do that tomorrow, but it ties into your conclusion.

I am not an anarchist, I just don’t want to be oppressed. I believe in a limited government by and for the people. Unfortunately, our government here in the states is huge, and governments do not shrink on their own. All governments throughout history have shrunk naturally through collapse. Large government is not sustainable. Collapse is inevitable anyway. Our interest payments are now larger then our gross domestic product. Anybody with even a shred of common sense should realize that collapse is inevitable just based on that fact. As soon as people stop buying U.S. government bonds, it is all over. Then the only recourse the government will have for paying their debts will be to print money to pay them. This will result in the further decline of the dollar and resulting influx of outstanding fed notes from our trade partners. We have been operating at a HUGE trade deficit for over forty years and printing money to pay for it. Only the U.S. can do this since dollars are currently the world’s reserve currency. So our trade partners have been holding all this money and trading it amongst themselves for oil and other resources and therefore doing us a huge favor by keeping it out of our economy. As soon as the dollar starts declining too much, our trade partners are going to rush over here and buy anything they can get their hands on to try and get rid of the money before it is worthless. The result will be hyper-inflation on the same scale as the Weimar Republic in the 1930’s where it was reported a woman went to the grocery store with a wheelbarrow of cash intending to buy a loaf of bread, and they offered her a trade for the wheelbarrow and asked her to keep the money.

So collapse is pretty much a foregone conclusion. It is just a matter of will it be on their terms or ours. I would not suggest ruining our economy on purpose otherwise.

Bimetalism went out at some point in the 1870’s when multiple silver mines were found in the West. The concern with all of that silver was that it would reduce the value of the silver that we already had because there would be a greater supply of silver. If the value of silver were reduced, then the value of the dollar would plummet accordingly. It was at that point that we switched to the Gold Standard.

Throughout the 1890’s, and particularly during the Presidential race with McKinley, William Jennings Bryan supported going back to bimetalism as he believed that it would increase the money supply and result in inflation. Unfortunately for Bryan, this was pretty much his only real stance during that particular campaign of his. Ultimately, McKinley won, and the Gold Standard remained. As a side note, William Jennings Bryan, an excellent orator, did deliver the, “Cross of Gold,” speech which to this day is still known as one of the greatest political speeches of all time.

In 1933, FDR got rid of the Gold Standard, and in 1934 the Gold Reserve Act was passed which required the majority of people to turn their gold into the Treasury for cash, and only certain gold items (such as jewelry) were even allowed to be privately owned. After a couple of decades it became unnecessary for the Treasury to hoard so much gold as many other countries found themselves going off of the Gold Standard. Currently, no country uses the Gold Standard, though many still back their currencies with gold.

Point is, from 1933 and on for a few years Gold could not even legally be used for debts public or private, so your premise is slightly incorrect on that one.

Congress later allowed Gold to be used for repayment of contracts after the year of 1977, I believe the month may have been October, but that does not mean that gold must be used.

This is pretty much the case with the currency of all countries because there is no country anywhere that uses the Gold Standard anymore. Besides, Americans are citizens of America, and all of the governing entities are part of the Representative Democracy which theoretically means that the citizens put them there to do the job.

In short, everyone in the country, in part, assumes the debt. Of course, that makes money an abstraction based only on the agreement that it be worth something, but that should be a readily acceptable (if not well-known) fact.

Besides, it is not like the Fed is this agency that sits so highly above us. It is made up of individuals as well who also have all of their goods and sevices on the line just like we do.

Armageddon scenario. Let’s say that the dollar plunged to literally nothing, do you think anyone would care about your gold and silver then? I’d care about food and water, myself. In fact, if you were willing to trade me a case of Dasani for what was once $1,000 worth of gold, I’d gladly accept the deal, grin and mutter, “Sucker,” as I walked away.

Why would I trade anything for your gold? Just because gold might one day be worth something again? If the dollar is worthless and presumably I am trading this gold for more dollars, what good does that do me? Instead of having nothing I can have more of nothing.

Yeah, same as credit cards or unsecured loans (assuming the loan is to be used to buy something) work. Secured loans are a little different, you’d have a secured loan on a new car. The bank gets the title in many states, but regardless of who holds the title the bank is the owner of the car and can therefore repossess it if there is non-payment, same as getting a house foreclosed on.

Does the shopkeeper want to make it secured? All he has to do is have Dad come in and sign a contract that states that if he fails to repay the debt, then he will give back the original milk and bread, or what is left of it. Because a car, for example, is not worth what it was when the bank made the loan.

Of course, you couldn’t sell that milk because it didn’t come from a supplier, but example-wise, I’m rolling with what you gave me to work with here.

Again, gold and silver coins cannot necessarily eliminate debt anymore.

I don’t see how the individual banks are responsible for this, they don’t establish the guidelines for the Fed.

Anyway, everyone that works for the Fed and for the banks and for everywhere else that is a U.S. Citizen has their asses on the line just like you and I do.

Or, there would be another freeze on the banks, which is how F.D.R. responded to the threat.

It would definitely be a race, and you would need many of the multi-millionaires (who have no reason to want to) withdraw all of their funds as well. Would enough money be pulled from the system to topple the house of cards, or would they be able to stop the bleeding just in time?

Actually, they’d probably stop the bleeding well before just in time, which takes you to my quote above this post. It would take more than just massive withdrawing from the banks.

When Great Britain collapses, then I will worry. They’ve been a big government for longer than we have, so theoretically, should be nearer the end of their life cycle. They seem more or less fine to me right now.

Kind of an absolute worst-case scenario, don’t you think?

By the way, it should also be mentioned that this country has a vast gold reserve, so if the value of gold (worldwide) were to remain the same, the absolute worst our dollars could do is plummet to a point where it would be indexed to the value of our gold.

That would effectively result in us adopting the Gold Standard again, not from a literal standpoint, but from a value of the dollar standpoint.

In other words, both gold and the dollar would have to nose dive for the dollar not to be worth anything.

Yes it could be legally used. It was just never challenged in court. Many people continued trading in gold and silver. That law was never enforced since if it ever was the supreme court would have to strike it down. But the threat was enough to get enough people to turn in their gold.

Yes I am aware of the fact that most of the world is no longer on the gold standard. But that has not at all decreased the value of gold. It has increased it. Regardless of how they try to get rid of it, gold persists. However, at the moment I recommend investing in silver. It is quite undervalued at the moment. I have no idea what you are talking about regarding moving from silver to gold. Silver backed notes were issued up until 1964. Silver has held its value for the most part for thousands of years.

Of course they would care about my gold and silver. I would trade gold for land or automobiles, and silver for normal commodities. I wouldn’t be interested in your fluoridated water, but I could easily trade silver for food for someone who had extra. They would take it because it would be something they could trade for other things without having to haul their food around with them everywhere which would likely just get them robbed since the food would be an obvious target. The silver fits in your pocket, and you can carry it around all day without it tiring you out and nobody is the wiser. Obviously, if my neighbors have just enough for their family, they aren’t going to trade me for some silver. But I am smart enough to go to a farm to buy some food, and they would gladly take my silver. I’d leave trading the gold piece for dasani water up to the dipshit who trades me one of his automobiles for it. I am not stupid enough to do that.

Also noted you highly contradicted yourself. First you said that you wouldn’t trade for my gold, then you said that you would gladly trade for it, then you said you wouldn’t again. Pick a position. Either you’d trade for it or you wouldn’t. Gold trades for other things besides commercial paper as noted in my original post. Gold and silver are the fallback currencies of the world as you noted when you said that we have a large stockpile of gold :laughing: in another post which I will get to later.

This has nothing to do with what my point was in that paragraph. My point was that by law the federal reserve owns everything paid for with federal reserve notes. In other words, they own most everything, and we own nothing.

Yes they can. The constitution is the supreme law of the land. Any law which is a tort to the constitution is considered null and void.

The people who work at the banks are of no concern to me. You don’t blame the slaves for the actions of their masters. The major banks are partners in the federal reserve along with the government. It is a private corporation that was designed to enforce a cartel. You need to read up on the history of it, who founded it, why was it founded, and for what purpose. I recommend reading “The Creature From Jeckyll Island, A second look at the federal reserve” for more info on that. The smaller mom and pop banks are also of no concern to me. They are not protected by the cartel, which is why they never get any bailouts. Certain banks will never be insolvent because they will be bailed out at all costs. All the rest are made to fail on purpose and simply get absorbed by the larger banks.

Well there is a lot more to my plan then that. I was just done typing at the moment. I also suggest they stop paying their loans, and rather then removing their fed notes they should all transfer them to foreign currencies and buy gold and silver with them. You are also forgetting that the economy is much, much more fragile then it was in the 1930’s. There was no fractional reserve system in the 1930’s, nor were there so many toxic derivatives floating around. It is a different ballgame altogether. Our money has already been stretched so far that it is about to pop from reckless banking policies and outright frauds.

Rome was around a long time too. It eventually collapsed. The collapse of Great Britain has nothing to do with the collapse of the U.S. But if we collapse they will likely collapse too. We are the largest consumer nation in the entire world. Our economy is inextricably linked to the rest of the world.

Not really. Either we get a bailout from the world bank and accept a global currency or we will collapse. I prefer the latter.

You honest to God believe that? I have talked to someone who worked at Ft. Knox. They say it is a joke. Most of the gold is gone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded. We owe more money then any other nation in the history of the world, and you still think we are rich? Wake up and smell the coffee! They have refused to allow any kind of real audit of Ft. Knox for over 40 years. Everyone knows the gold is gone. It is a joke.

Furthermore, the presence of gold at Fort Knox has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the value of the dollar. Were we to go back on the gold standard due to hyper-inflation, the gold would be gone in no time, and the fed notes would still be worthless. There would be absolutely no incentive whatsoever to go back onto the gold standard in that scenario. I don’t know what ever gave you the idea that there was any kind of relation between the dollar and gold. That relationship ended in 1971 thanks to tricky Dick and company.

Aren’t bonds a greater problem? Since the Italian wars of cough all wars have continued longer than they would have due to bonds. i.e. Napoleonic wars, American Civil war and the world wars. I would say they put people in bondage more than fiat money.

Which Anarchists are against organisation? I think they’re only against hierarchical organisation.

Bonds only work if someone will buy them. Our government has always been able to sell every single bond they have ever tried to sell. But as soon as we can’t make our interest payments, nobody is going to loan us money anymore.

Dreamy - given how much you dislike the present system, why are you, and why should we be, so upset at its imminent demise? Empires fall. Is that a universally bad thing? The US took a big chunk out of the British Empire when it removed itself. Was that so bad?

Well, I don’t think that the collapse will necessarily be a bad thing. It just depends on how it plays out. I have a few different scenarios.

  1. Collapse happens, global currency and global government are instituted via the world bank. Many people die from disease and famine as a result.

  2. Collapse happens, and our major trade partners such as China get mad and come turn in their fed notes which they demand infrastructure, goods, and services which they will take by force if necessary. U.S. citizens then become a slave population to pay for the debt that our illegitimate government ran up in our name.

  3. The collapse is initiated by bank customers on purpose. The collapse is predicted so most people are ready for it, have storable foods, precious metals for trade, generators, etc. By trading fed notes for precious metals the citizens have enough wealth left to rebuild their society without banks. We get offered world currency and global government but refuse it and decide to rebuild the republic and follow the constitution and bill of rights.

It is a matter of weather or not the collapse is engineered and who it is engineered by. #1 assumes that the collapse is engineered by offshore bankers who want a new world order dictatorship. That one is by far the most likely and obvious thing that will happen. The fact that they are announcing this on the news, in Time Magazine, etc leaves no doubt in my mind that is the official plan. #2 assumes that the collapse is accidental. I suppose that is a possibility, but then why is the mainstream media reporting “a new financial world order” all over the place? Assuming that it is entirely accidental, I seriously doubt that China and other trade partners are just going to simply accept our bankruptcy and take trillions in losses. That would destroy their economy too. They would likely come over here and turn in their fed notes which are backed by “all assets held in collateral by the Federal Reserve” and “all the goods and services in the U.S. economy”. If we honor that, they will own us just like slaves. If we don’t honor that they may declare war since A. That would help their economies anyway, and B. They want to take whatever chance they get to get the debt repaid, and C. They will want to take advantage of the U.S. while they are weak so that they do not recover and again dominate the world.

I guess they could still try and fight us with #3, but we will be in a lot more of a position to fight for our freedom if #3 happened. For one, we would have a much better chance of repatriating our troops which would be absolutely vital to defending ourselves from foreign powers, not to mention the right thing to do. They would simply be tortured and killed abroad which would be a terrible tragedy. I don’t want to see anything happen to those brave men and women, and we certainly need them.

But I doubt #2 will happen anyway. They are obviously going for #1. The idea will be to engineer a total collapse and loot all of the remaining wealth from our country via bailouts and government spending. Look at how bad our economy is, yet they keep proposing new taxes and new spending like this health care bill that will probably pass. They are like arsonists. They don’t really give a shit about our health care, they just want to spend us into oblivion.

Had it been challenged in the Supreme Court, then Congress would have just invoked a Constitutional Amendment, trust me, they had the votes for it.

We moved from bimetallism to gold, I said, as far as the standard was concerned. That was because so much silver was found in the West. You can look that up. 1870-something.

I don’t know that anyone is trying to get rid of Gold, all of the countries just didn’t want to have a Gold Standard anymore because then you are limiting the power of your currency to whatever the value of the gold you stockpile is. In effect, you are saying that this gold represents the entire value of our country if you have the Gold Standard.

I wouldn’t trade an automobile, those are a hot commodity. Like I said, in an Armageddon scenario people would have to eventually realize that the gold and silver are worthless. What practical use do they have? Obviously, had I silver or gold I’d get rid of it to whomever was willing to give me the most in return. I can tell you this, though, the last people to jump on the gold and silver are worthless bandwagon would be royally screwed.

I’m talking Armageddon scenario here. I’m going to get the most I can for my gold and silver if I have any and then be done with it because eventually everyone will get the idea that they don’t really do anything.

The country (technically) owns everything within the country and this surprises you?

Unless the Constitution is Amended. Like you said, nobody challenged the Congressional ruling or it would have been.

When did I say we were rich? I just said the farthest the dollar would fall compared to the currency of other countries is the value of our gold in that other currency indexed to the amount of currency we have outstanding compared to other countries.

I doubt many americans would die from disease and famine. If you can show me how they would, I might get a little worried. Then again, I might not.

You mean they launch an armed invasion and carry off the Brooklyn Bridge?

Your dream come true. Of course, if they are gasoline generators, we might have some problem getting the gasoline without banks and currency, but I guess we could send a bunch of Michael Jackson CD’s over to the Middle East in trade for oil.

I missed those stories. Gotta get a subscription to Time, I guess.

Are you really basing this all on a catch-phrase? Also, you are taking the word “collateral” waaaay too seriously. All it means is that there really is a limit to how much money the Fed can print before it loses value. The Chinese are not going to come and take my car. If they declared war, they would lose. No one doubts that. If they could win, they’d probably have attacked already. Our debt is an asset to them. That’s what debts are to those who own them. Assets. They get concerned when those assets are devalued, but they’re doing just fine the way things are.

When we are weak, they are weak.

I beg to differ. Constitutional amendments are much more difficult to pass then typical federal legislations. It would have also had to have been passed by 2/3 of the state legislatures. That would have taken a very long time, and likely there would have been protests during that time.

Sure there are people trying to get rid of gold. They are called Marxists. Ever read the communist manifesto? I did look up the bimetallism thing. Evidently the gold standard was not entirely adopted until 1900 though, and even then silver coins were still issued as money in the form of silver dollars. What was your point in pointing this out again?

Gold and silver have kept their value for over 3000 years and counting. There have been many similar depressions to the one which we are about to experience including the Weimar Republic in the 1930’s, the Soviet Union and Argentina, etc. In each of these hyper-inflationary depressions gold and silver were traded and still considered valuable. What makes you think that this one would be any different? Based on the experiences that we have from history to draw from, every indication says that gold and silver will continue to be valuable, and likely even increase in value. The conclusion you have drawn on the other hand is purely speculative, and has no evidence or experience to back it from whatsoever. Instead, it has 3000 years of contradiction. As for your automobile, I don’t know how valuable it would be in a collapse. What would you fuel it with? I wouldn’t even buy it unless it were a diesel.

That is pure sophistry. The country is the people, not the state. It should be surprising to most people that the state owns all of their belongings technically or not. Why wouldn’t it be? Most people think we live in a free country, not a communist dictatorship where the state actually owns everything and there are no property rights. But really it isn’t even the state. The fed is a privately owned corporation that has a deal with the government. I call that fascism. So to be realistic, all of our property and labor is owned by an illegitimate fascist state. We as a people have been tricked into giving up our property. It started with the abandonment of silver backed currency (as you pointed out) and was completed with fiat paper currency and uncontrollable deficit spending.

That is a very big unless. Unless your mom has balls, she is not your dad. And I wouldn’t say that it wasn’t challenged, it was just never challenged in court. And it wasn’t a ruling, it was a law.

I contend that you wouldn’t. Disease is caused by famine. Famine is caused by depression. It’s also bible prophecy. And the food supply has been shrinking since the 70’s. It used to be 72 days for every man, woman, and child, now it is less then 7. Dairy farmers are butchering their cows and selling the meat thanks to government regulations which require dairy farmers to sell their milk at a loss.

No, I mean they come and stick a flag in the ground and say “I claim this land in the name of China”, and make their argument with bullets much like every other conquering empire.

That’s an if. I would buy diesel and solar generators, and run them off the sun and veggie oil respectively.

Don’t bother: time.com/time/magazine/artic … 88,00.html
time.com/time/world/article/ … 12,00.html
time.com/time/world/article/ … 63,00.html
time.com/time/magazine/artic … 30,00.html

A lot more where those came from

Am I? Or maybe you aren’t taking it seriously enough. Your statement makes no sense. Regardless of what fed notes are backed by, the more the fed prints the less they are worth. It matters not if they are backed by our property or by toe jam. Either way, the more of those babies that circulate the less they are worth. This is a fundamental principle of economics. If they said they were backed by nothing, then fine. But they don’t say that. They say they are backed by “all goods and services held in collateral”. If they were not backed by anything, wouldn’t they have just said so? Most people assume they are backed by nothing, and only a few people really complain about it. So what is the difference?

Also, what makes you think that China couldn’t beat us? They are the only country I think that could. The idea that if they could they would does not follow. There are a lot of countries China could conquer if they wanted to but choose not to. They have the largest army in the world I believe. That is plenty enough for an invasion on our soil. Just because something has never happened yet does not mean it never will.

Why, because we are their largest customer? So what? They are the largest producer nation in the world. They would certainly take a loss, but they would just find other trade partners to buy their goods. We on the other hand export nothing but paper promises, and are the largest consumer nation in the world. At least half of our food supply is controlled by foreign corporations. Without people to spoon feed us we are doomed.

I didn’t say it wouldn’t take long, I just said they had the votes.

I can’t quite remember offhand. But, I did notive something. The Constitution says, “No state shall make anything but gold and silver…etc,” that does not prohibit the Federal Government from doing it.

In other words, States can’t have their own currency unless it ties into the bimetallist standard. As far as I know, the Civil War being an exception (and the C.S.A. a separate country) no state has ever attempted to make its own currency anyway.

I’m talking total financial Armageddon here, which is what you suggest would happen if the United States were to crumble to nothing. What the Hell are you going to do with gold? You can’t eat it, you can’t drink it, it would be useless. Gold and silver have to have dollar value to be worth anything, but if no dollars of any kind are worth anything themselves, then what would give gold and silver worth?

The state is made up of the people.

I don’t think abandoning the silver standard had anything to do with it. We’d operated under the gold standard only long before the Fed was established.

Ruling, law, semantics. I mistyped, my mistake.

That definitely lends this theory credibility.

They still aren’t really backed by anything, though. What if we couldn’t pay a debt to another country? Are we going to say, "Okay, we’ll ship 1,000,000 of our people over to your country to work free until it is paid off?

I don’t think they did, nor would they have been likely to pull it off even if they did.

Is that really what you think? The federal government is a state. Furthermore, states are more sovereign. That is why they put that line in the section prohibits states from certain activities rather then the federal government. If they had put it in the federal government section the states could do it. By putting it in the states section nobody can do it. That was the point. States are sovereign. The federal government is just there to serve the states supposedly. Of course in practice…

That is a pretty big assumption that every state in the world would crumble because the U.S. does. Boy you must think highly of it. Too bad you don’t defend the real thing, the constitution that was put in place to defend our liberties. If one thing good comes from the collapse then I hope that it is the return of the constitution and abandonment of the ten planks to the communist manifesto.

No dummy, the people are made up of the people. The state is the government. You know, the corporation chartered to serve the states who serve the people. The one that went bankrupt in the 1930’s and was bought out by the offshore bankers that ruled the cartel known as the federal reserve system. They are not the people any more then Coca Cola is.

I think it did. It partly caused the deflation that caused people to mistrust a commodity based monetary system. Had they stayed on the bimetal system that would not have happened. Silver may have been becoming more common, but gold was becoming more scarce. The difference would have balance out and there would have been monetary stability which is what is desired in the first place. The bankers engineered the collapse at the end of the 1800’s which was caused by currency drains, which was the direct cause of the acceptance of the federal reserve system and the cited reason for its institution to begin with.

And why wouldn’t it? The bible has been fairly accurate so far. I chalk that up to the power of belief. It is singly the largest belief system in the world. People largely create their own destiny. Reality is a combination of the subjective and objective. A subjective reality as strongly believed as the bible is likely to effect human events don’t you think?

No, we would say okay, well we will split up our country amongst our creditors who now own the infrastructure, buildings, people, etc. You are thinking in outmoded terms. This is globalism man, come on get with it! What do you think the world bank and IMF do to third world countries all the time? They bankrupt them and own their asses! They are doing the same thing to us, it is just on a MUCH larger scale. Already foreign corporations own a significant portion of our infrastructure. Aren’t you aware of that? When they own everything, then what? It’s economic take over. It preserves the valuable infrastructure. America is a nice place, they don’t want to rough up the scenery you know.

Check the Congressional vote on the original measure, the 75% was there. They might not have gotten the States, but I think they would have. Everyone was pretty well willing to try anything. That’s another debate in itself, though.

So, you’re saying they used the words, “No state,” which strongly implies there is plural to reference the singular Federal government?

I thought that was your estimation that it would crumble the world. My mistake, I must have misinterpreted you somewhere along the line.

The Government, at any level, is made up of the people. Enough said there.

The difference would not have balanced out because you are talking about a shitload of mines out in the West. The only alternative, which would have worked fine if you wanted to go with bimetalism, is to somehow pull currency (Have less outstanding) with relation to the amount of silver accumulated.

That sounds difficult, but they could have pulled it from the bank system and issued silver bonds in exchange. The problematic aspect of this, though, is they knew it would be a lot of silver they just did not know exactly how much.

What’s the Mayan calendar have to say about it, then?

You’re talking Isolationism, I happen to be a fan of Isolationism. In any case, the Government as well as our own corporations own some stake in foreign corporations, and in many cases, we openly operate over there.

Like you said, it’s globalization.

Seems like they would’ve done that while they could then. It would be incredibly hard to do afterward.

I am saying the federal government IS a state like all of the other states Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, D.C. Get my point. D.C. has different laws then Maryland and Virginia. It is a state.

It would certainly do some damage, but crumble, probably not.

So is Coca Cola and McDonalds. You are saying the government is the people, so then the people are the government? Am I the government? Are you? If the government was made up of ALL of the people I would concede that point, but it is made up of a select few like any other organization. I own a sole proprietorship. That is made up of me. I am a person. Is my sole proprietorship “the people”? We are talking the government vs. the huddled masses here.

That would happen anyway. Plates and things would be made of silver. Only some of it would be made into coin. Problem solved.

End of the world the way most people read it. But I think they just did not calculate any further then the age of Aquarius because they had no need to at the time.

Well I am glad you are an isolationist, but that gives me no solace. I am not much of a fan of our corporations either. They don’t really serve the public. They better serve private interests. And it is not just foreign corporations operating here, they own a large chunk of our infrastructure. That is asking for economic takeover. Here in Texas we keep having this problem where this Spanish corporation keeps buying our roads and turning them into tolls. Not good at all.

So you are an isolationist. What do you propose should be done to stop the madness?

I don’t see why.

D.C. is not the Federal Government. It is where the majority of the Federal Government offices are located.

Do all of the Congressmen represent D.C. because that is where the Pentagon is located?

When I say represent D.C., I mean the locality, by the way.

That’s what I figure.

The Government cannot be made up (constantly) of all the people because that is inefficient. The point is that all legal adults have a say in who they vote for and anyone is free to file a suit against the Government for whatever reason, now how far that suit goes is a different matter altogether…

But, the people decided that the Government should operate this way. If enough people decide it should not, then the Government will be overthrown. Unless they decide to ban ownership of firearms prior to that, then good luck overthrowing anything.

Actually, now that I think about the NRA if the Government decided to completely ban private gun ownership it would definitely be overthrown!

The value of the plate (if made entirely of silver) is whatever the weight of the plate is vs. the cost per ounce of silver. That wouldn’t just be in America, but that would be all over the world depending on what they wanted to pay for silver.

The point is that they just didn’t know what was going to happen with it. But, you can certainly see why the silver that the government did have would become less valuable if everyone else had silver to, or if more silver were even on the market, in general. It drives the value of silver down for everyone. If instead of grass, silver threads grew from our yards, silver would have almost no value.

That’s why you can’t continue to base the value of your currency (in part) on your silver holdings, especially when the amount of silver in the mines is a total unknown because that makes it difficult to index to know how much to buy to even maintain a steady currency.

The silver still represents currency value whether or not the silver is a plate, or anything else, that is the point. A tomato represents currency value, anything that can be sold does and the more of it there is (with few exceptions) the less money it can be sold for.

I was kidding. I don’t really buy into any future prophecies of any variety.

That is certainly a problem. How can they buy the roads, who is selling them? The State of Texas? Vote out everybody.

It is too late for Isolationism, probably.

I guess I wouldn’t limit imports to that which is absolutely necessary only, but probably limit it to raw materials and go back to being a primary/secondary Economy, at least for the most part.

All the tennis shoe people would have to make their shoes here, I don’t think any of them do anymore. I’m pretty sure Converse was the last one. You could no longer buy imported steel, it would have to be American steel. The list goes on.

Go back to having human beings do some of the stuff we now have computers do. It’s not efficient, at all, but at least it lends to the economic flow to have a high employment percentage. Like I said in either this thread or a different one, break-even is the most efficient result at the Macro-level.

Ban F*&*#$^%$ing Unions. They’re the bastards that drove most, “American,” companies to want to produce overseas anyway.

There are other things, as well, it would take awhile to list them all. I can probably think of a few hundred, but banning most imports is the biggest one.

You don’t? Different congress. Different circumstances. Different votes presumably.

Actually, I looked it up and D.C. has no representation. At least none they vote for. I assume that the founding fathers did that to demonstrate that the states were sovereign. I also noted that the constitution never gave congress the right to print money though, only coin it. And, since no state can make anything but gold and silver coin tender in payment of debt, the only place where fed notes can be legal tender is DC, Guam, and Puerto Rico, right? That makes sense being that the states are sovereign, and state law is sovereign over federal law.

Yeah, I look at it this way. If you were in business and you traded with a bunch of people and you lost your best customer, it would hurt but it wouldn’t kill you.

That’s assuming that the voting isn’t rigged. There have been exit polls that more or less prove that it is, the fact that congress who was supposedly voted into office has had on average a 9% approval rating for some years now. Furthermore, the politicians don’t follow the laws either. It is a rogue government.

Also, people vote on McDonald’s and Coca Cola as well. They vote with their dollars. Are those multinational corporations also made up of the people?

You don’t think there might be some coercion on the part of the government to prevent them from thinking in this manner?

The NRA is a pretty big sham. They act like they are pro-gun but they are all talk and they support anti-gun legislature. Gun owners of America is the REAL thing.

The plate won’t be in circulation though. It will be sitting on someone’s shelf. You can look at it this way. The value of the money is only backed by the value of the silver. But that is just a buffer that prevents the money from going lower then a certain value. But the actual value of the money is the face value decreed by law. It works the same as with fiat paper except it can only inflate so much. Furthermore, if there is an equal increase in the expansion of goods and services, there is no worry of inflation at all. That is what should have been done. Instead of worrying about finding all that silver, they should have used it to expand the market itself. Then it would have been a time of unrivaled prosperity instead of constant bank panics.

Right, but then if there is a sudden expansion in tomato sauce but not the tomato, would that effect the value of the tomato?

Can’t fault you there. Predicting the future is kind of stupid. Uncertainty principle and all. I will never say X event is going to for sure happen. Rather I would say it is probably X event will happen.

Yes, the state. Unfortunately even if the elections were real, I am only one vote. Maybe if we get Debra Medina in here she will do something. But it isn’t just this state. They are talking about building this transnational corridor (and have been for like 20 years) from Mexico to Canada that would be owned by a foreign corporation and would be 300 yards wide and have heavy tolls on it. They actually put up billboards about it, and then when you call your representative to chide them they deny it exists. They have tried to put this in like 5 different times and each time Texans storm angrily to the capital and block it. So since they couldn’t do that, they decided to hijack some of our roads out of spite I guess. To make matters worse, they force you to use RFID on your vehicle to use the tolls in a lot of areas. It’s like a major surveillance control grid.

[/quote]
I don’t think we even need to go as far as banning. I say heavy tariffs. Most other countries do that to us. And yeah F unions. Most of them are criminal organizations anyway. I don’t understand how we let companies get away with outsourcing their labor. The way I feel about it, if they want to make it somewhere else, they can sell it somewhere else too. Tariff the hell out of it. Put an extra tariff on outsourcing. Those companies are idiots anyway. Did it ever occur to them that they are firing their customers? The solution is so obvious and so simple. That is why I think the destruction of America is a conspiracy. The trade deficit should have been taken care of a long time ago. We are almost entirely socialist, but somehow we have qualms with tariffs? F global markets. A national market is good enough anyway. We have a HUGE country, and we have TONS of oil. We have everything we need here. There was absolutely no reason to globalize our nation except to ensure its destruction.

And yeah, people over machines. How about we bring back the family farm and get rid of all these multinational food cartels? That would be a lot of jobs right there. And then while we are at it, lets open back up those steel mills in Pittsburgh. I always thought those going out of business was suspicious too. That used to be our number one export. We bailed out the banks, investment firms, and railroads but skipped our number one export? Even a fool would see a problem with that, it was done on purpose. But I guess that is what you get when the banks come before real industries. You get a country that exports nothing but paper promises. Who really likes banks anyway? Nobody I know. My bro has a perfect credit score, pays every single purchase with his credit card, reaps all the rewards and airline miles, and pays it off monthly not paying one dime of interest. He STILL loathes the banks after all that. In fact, he partly does that just to spite them. So then why are we bailing out the banks but not the steel mills huh? F the banks, we don’t need them, they don’t produce one useful thing. Steel on the other hand…

Oh, and while we are on the subject of globalism, what do you think about this global carbon tax they are trying to ram through on the basis of fraudulent science from scientists who just got busted and admitted they were lying? Yep, no global conspiracy here. Nothing to see, just move along, oh, and don’t forget to hold your breath. That’s poisonous waste you are exhaling! :unamused: