Trial Defence vs Living Constitutions

There is a school of jurisprudence in the United States I became familiar with in San Francisco, based off Wittgenstein (not ultimately originating in him, but the bulk of their intellectual presumptions are rooted in him. Lots of literature floating around if your interested). The basic idea is that the constitution is a highly flexible document that can mean whatever the hell we want it to mean, just “poof” shit changes.

If we hold this as valid, is there a point to having trials?

Secondly, do we need lawyers, and fixed legal statutes.

Say you am defending yourself in court on conpletely absurd charges that came out of left field, and you are a absolute enthusiast for the law, and read ever legal code and law outthere, and can quote both US Constitutions by heart, and know the rules governing the creation of laws each Congress adopts, as well as every executive order…

…and your defending yourself rationally and adeptly, in a manner that the founding fathers of the American Republic would find admirable. You’ve documented every possible counterpoint ever brought up by a prosecution in the past before the trial, am aware of court precedent… being the absolute genius you are, and allowed for every possible conceivable response by the prosecution to arise, and can refute it, with copies of said laws and precedents in hand… showing your innocence, that you most certainly did NOT violate the law.

As your well into doing this… the prosecuter becomes panicked, and calls “Objection”.

“On what grounds” says the Judge.

“Violates Amendments X, Y, Z, your Honor!”

Your taken aback, as admendments X, Y, and Z have absolutely nothing to do with your charges, or his arguments thus far. As the Prosecutor explains, you realize his is lying, and stretching the logic of the amendments in directions that make them nonsense, has no precedence backing it, and is in general absurd.

Judge allows the motion…

Astonished, you Object to the Objection. Judge overrules you, saying the Constitution is a living treatise, and you just saw it evolve before your eyes. The Judges eyes buldge out as he says this, cock his head to the side, and stares at you without blinking…

You cry out astonished, and whip out a law code, published by the state merely a month ago… But you are told its outdated.

“When did it become outdated” you say?

“Just now, bitch… so bend over and take it, for the law is the law, and we are all equal before it.” Retorts the Judge.

Judge starts banging the gavel… and laughs like a hyena. The prosecutor does too, and so does the bailiff. No jury was present, as like in India, the law evolved out of needing that sort of thing getting in the way of justice.

Your sentenced to jail, hard labor in a Alaskan Gulag, on the charge of excessively studying the law without being approved to do so by the State’s legal Bar association, and for discussing the implications such laws can have on society, openly in public, causing a public disturbance… in a atrium in a public park where people sat attentively listening to you.

Not only did the law evolve, being the living document it is, right before your eyes enough to convict you, the constitutional bar against Cruel and Unusual Punishments evolves too. Your carrying heavy rocks from one side of the arctic ocean to another, nonstop, frostbite be damned.

You later on appeal, pointing out the plain language of the law clearly refutes the opinion of the lower court, but the Appeals Court rules this is inaccurate, as they found definitions in the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary that supports their definitions. You notice the sources in the OED all list paragraphs from your court case, and that this is proof they just made this shit up, as their judgment can’t be the original basis for the definition used to convict you.

The court calls you a annoying panzy ass bitch, and send you back to Alaska, as you simply don’t understand how living documents work. Words are what we make of them, and they exist without tense, beyond causual constraints determining Hermuenetics. What determines Hermuenetics is the bias of the “in crowd”, the cool kids, the people who live around Deloros Park in San Francisco, or professors who smoke pot in class. To them, your a drag, a square, you annoy the fuck out of them, irritating them with rules and laws… they didn’t take those classes in college regarding the laws you claim to follow, dont remember agreeing with any such laws when they became lawyers… so fuck you square.

You appeal to the supreme court, saying you got fucked over hard by the the first court, second court called was clearly inebriated during your hearing, unfairly biased against you, and you gave cause to serious question as to if they ever passed the associated bar, or ever were lawfully elected judges in the first place, and furthermore one judge had a face tattoo, and the other was dress like Judge Dredd. If that wasn’t enough, they also called you a derogatory sexist slur, a “Panzy” which was inappropriate as you weren’t gay.

You argue passionately and rationally, throwing everything down before the mercy of the Supreme Court, and say you need help, “please God, help me” you cry… " a polarbear in Alaska was chasing me and tried to rape me. All I did was hold a calm, public discussion on the law, I don’t deserve any of this, death would be preferable."

Court deliberates, and rules yoy don’t understand how the law works, and it further said during your imprisonment, you violated the Polar Bear’s 14th Admendment right to marry when you resisted it, as the Mahabharata lists Rape as a valid legal categorical union of conjugal marriage, and this Polarbear sounds oftly Hindu to them, and as a previous court ruled Polar Bears are legally people under the Buen Vivir rights it possesses. As you are violating its natural habitat that gives it legal personhood status via the Alaskan Habitat it exists in, it has equal rights to violate you.

Furthermore, given the separation of church and state, and the fifth admendment right of the Polar Bear not to testify against itself, yada yada yada, we we can’t beyond a reasonable doubt determine the polar bear’s religious preference and must assume the Polar Bear is Hindu, and is now is lawfully wedded to you, and has conjugal visitation rights. This doesn’t violate your rights as a heterosexual, as a appeals court previous conformed your a panzy-ass bitch. IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE FOR VIOLATING THE LAW.

The polarbear is thrilled to hear of this (was sitting in Court, cheered upon hearing the Verdict), and it now lives happily ever after… with you, in the Gulag, all because you wanted to study and debate the law. Socrates got off lightly with the hemlock.

Yes… this is a extreme rhetorical case, but what stops any part of it from happening under the idea of a “living constitution”? What is the metabolism of said constitution? Can it evolve right before your eyes? When exactly do these standards change? What’s to prevent abuses of power?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. No conceivable check or separation of power can stop it. If judges and lawyers hold to this philosophy, we ultimately and naturally regress to judicial whims as the laws, and nothing held sacred is upheld in the courts. Everything gets turned upside down, and society turns cynical. The best of intentions in the short run can lead to the worst of results in the long run.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4uGxAjNJXk

I was almost convinced to become a Sovereign while I was in prison. Or I should say ‘try’ to become one. I could never afford the costs of the process… very expensive, drawn out and a lot of lawyers and paper work. Ever heard of these guys?

I think any constitution is subject to change naturally and should. At the moment a Sovereign can get away with driving his car without a license or the car being registered or taxed as property, through a clause in one of the ammendments. Something about how only vehicles used for commercial purposes are subject to these laws, not personal vehicles.

This is because the writers of the constitution couldn’t foresee the invention of the automobile or mass transit highways and interstates that would exist in the future. The amendment was created during a time when everybody was riding horse driven carraiges on one lane dirt roads. But these Sovereigns are getting away with this stuff.

The guy who told me about this said there were some videos on youtube of Sovereigns getting pulled over while driving. Haven’t see any of em yet. These guys had no license and no license plate. The cop walks up to the window (this is all recorded on the Sovereign’s camera) and they exchange words. The cops walks back to the patrol car then comes back. Let’s the guy go. Whatever he told him checked out. The Sovereign spit some legal shit way over the cop’s head so he goes back to the car to call the dispatch. The cop finds out he can’t cite him. Wtf?

The best thing about the jury trial is that it mirrors the democratic form in positive law; it allows the largest (within reason) group of inersubjectivities to come into agreement on the definition of legal terms and criminal behavior. This prevents the tyranny of the single opinion. In theory it is a great idea, but in practice we find the majority of juries to be rather uninformed about both.

If you let a legal decision rest on the opinion of one, very educated person, like a judge, you get a more informed ruling… but the judgement is more rigid and singular. It expresses the opinions and preferences of only one person and in that does not reflect the democratic or even dialectical process of positive law.

The loop is circular. People who compose juries are conditioned and become opinionated through their social experiences. They have their ‘morals’. Then they reflect the dominant moral meme when they play judge. Law follower becomes law giver and enforcer, the democratic loop.

What allows positive law to develop like this is in fact the ambiguity of the semantic meaning of a statute. Because the meaning of words can be argued, the constitution isn’t really sitting on a solid foundation of immutable axioms.

Thanks for keeping it interesting Turd, and engaging the real issues. Not much else of that going on around here.

They explained it wrong to you in prison. You are referring to a old federal law that prevents police from issuing restrictive licences to travel on government roadways. This was made back in the horse and buggy era. The rules governing highways must abide by this rule, as the government can’t restrict you from driving on its public roads by virtue of having a licence.

However, it also has the right to make health and safety laws, and its overwhelmingly obvious drivers who don’t know how to drive can’t drive safely.

Likewise, it presumes in many states pedestrians can’t safely travel along motorways, even though this obviously violates the federal statue if you can show it is indeed safe to walk. For example, if you refused to stop walking, even though pedestrians are prohibited by signage, you would have to show how the sign was unreasonable as your safety, as well as the safety of motorists is not at reasonable risk. If you were arrested in a reflective safety vest, and can show the highway had plenty of openspace THE ENTIRE ROUTE of your journey, and that furthermore the state makes people serve their community service on said roads picking up trash, with nothing more than a safety vest as protection, then the court will have a very difficult time allowing for the pedestrian prohibited clause.

This is why, in my backpack, I always carry a Army Issue yellow reflective belt, to wrap around it par military regulations to prevent vehicle to pedestrian collisions. Likewise, I know department of transportation engineers who regularly jog the highway off duty, wearing just this belt slung over their shoulders… right past the pedestrian restricted signs.

There is no fee for this, its simply law. However, arguing this to a cop involves you being aware of the statues, and they can get away with a false arrest claim by merely pointing at the pedestrians prohibited sign.

As to if drivers can legally drive without a licence? Yes, on private estates, but on state roads (each state has its own DMV/BMV) you do. The law you are thinking of only applies to federal roads, and in order to reach them legally, unless you just bought the car on the highway and never drive it off it, even to refuel, your stuck using a ID, as the cops can surmise you violated the law to reach the federal roadway.

Some success in upholding pedestrian and horse passage on highways … the Amish, but they have to carry signalling equipment and reflective objects on their rear. Apparently their horses can shit wherever they want.

Your belief this has something to do with the sovereign citizen movement is unfounded. You do not need to pay a fee to do this, as you can’t legally register as one. The courts will not recognize your authority unless it conforms to its laws, and only its laws.

A possible way around having a US drivers licence us holding a international licence, or a foreign licence we recognize, and using it. We recognize some countries, and so does Mexico and Cuba. China and Vietnam won’t let you ride a bicycle, much less drive a car, without passing a local drivers test in their language.

If someone tells you you can pay a fee to get sovereign citizen status, know they are defrauding you. However, if you insist, I guess I can issue you a sovereign citizen card, but its going to be stamped for novelty purposes only, and you will have to sign a contract acknowledging I warned you, and you just wanted to drop money on thus foolish idea of yours anyway.

$5,000 bucks, in cash, and I will check to make sure the money is real.

I didn’t explain why that No-Licence law existed in the first place… we had a lot of immigrants arriving from Europe, as well as a landless population homegrown in the east coast trying to move west, and states and municipalities were restricting the freedom of travel AWAY from overcrowded lands.

In Europe, many states issued internal passports, for where residents were allowed to travel. This is a precedent going back to Roman Times.

We enacted the laws to prevent this from occurring. However, it has reemerged. Many homeless forums have reported, for example, the Homeless can’t escape West out of Toledo, Ohio. As a result, Toledo, Ohio has a larger and more violent transient population. The police militantly enforce this, cause they are prejudiced, think for some twisted reason they are doing something productive, and that it keeps down crime. It doesn’t.

In order to bust out of such cities on foot, a lot of planning has to occur in advance, including night travel and evading police forces. Effectively, your a criminal until you reach safety out of Toledo’s jurisdiction.

Many cities have instituted roadway and homeless laws aimed at restricting travel one way on roads (and no, they won’t let you walk backwards) or not at all if you appear homeless, and will arrest you if caught sleeping in the city and removed up to twenty miles away from the city core. This is very bad, especially if you have a jib in the city and just lost access to it.

Its a underground movement navigating this mess. I help in it to a extent to overcome some of the worst injustices of these wild paramilitary groups calling themselves protectors of the oeace reinacting ignorance the police showed in the first Rambo movie.

In order to bust out of California, I had 4 routes I had available upon landing in San Bruno from being homeless in Hawaii to make it to the east coast, and two converged on lake Tahoe. I took the southern lake Tahoe route, through Placerville. I had to plan everything out in deep detail in advance, and move and have cover stories for why I was walking to give to the cops. I only had a total of four routes out of a entire state (five if you include the tracks up to Oregon, but Caltrans prohibited that legally, but obviously could do it).

This is exactly what we were trying to prevent. When we enforce these laws, we end up with trapped transient populations, or the emergence of Slab Cities, which are illegal municipalities… sheriffs and state courts have a mixed track record in dealing with them, sometimes treated fairly, other times attacked by cops and bulldozers.

Its taking a increasing amount of intelligence to break out on the underground railroad to travel if your down on your luck to improve your financial straits. Freedom of association doesn’t always translate to freedom of movement if your of the lowest class. Jack London had to come to terms with this reality, as did I… the vagrancy laws can hit you merely for passing through with a backpack, if the coos don’t like your explanation, jail or worst, a psych evaluation that can take days. Difference for me is, the military trained me to be exceptionally good at getting around such issues, and I know how to get others around them too.

A weird flipside is, some states in the upper Midwest have travel certificates that buys you bus tickets OUT if their community of even state. Some hitch hikers get across the Midwest very quickly walking into police departments requesting them. Given away with a smile, and told not to come back.

Other states, Notoriously Hawaii, has a hugh Asain population, and looks at its primarily minority populations… whites and Black’s (Asians are the majority in Hawaii) as the social evil, and a white face or black face on a beach is a crime beyond any other… courts continuously resist this, and while I headed The Honolulu Philosophy Group, I teamed up with my buddy who more or less ran the Occupy WallStreet Movement (both if us were Vets) to sit in the very meeting this mass plane ticket program was hatched up. I thought it would go nowhere, but they enacted it. Just a way to push Asian Superiority over Whites and Blacks, as the Asians aren’t targeted and pressured to leave, and it IS a US State.

It usually ends up being Racial or Class motives in the first place. We are a society deeply fixated on the looks of class, so I recommend to any homeless people, look at the people who the police respect the most, and dress like them. When I was homeless, I was wearing French Cuffed Shirts and Jackets. Why? That’s his the elites dressed in San Francisco… found my sizes in the Goodwill Stores. Very stupid, very sad… but I wasn’t the one getting roughed up at night by police ticketing the homeless, I never once was fined, and thus kept a clean criminal record, allowing me to find work. Most guts dont figure thus out until its too late. You have to play to society’s prejudice, and outthink the cops to remain legal and honest. If not, you become their victims, and get locked away. Its got nothing to do about right and wrong, just the tax payers fear and paranoia. They pay the cops, and the cops harass and arrest to impress them. You, the down on your luck individual, have to pay in this system. Its been thus way ever since the king drove the squatters out of the West Lands. If you do not abscribe to its controls, to its socialism, its needs of the moment… you become hunted and nailed down. Its all about being smarter then they are, and being the better human. Soon walking on the sidewalks will become illegal.

Riddick is more or less the last Pedestrian… down on his luck, trying to do the right thing, but the authorities just can’t let him walk, ever… every movie featuring his character, he just wanted to walk, unmolested- just be left alone, and get to where he was going. Why? None if your fucking business, no one asks you why you do the things you do. Yet…everyone comes after him, and he has to plan these elaborate strategic and tactical feats just to head out and arrive somewhere, and he gets picked up by the cops in half his attempts.

Being homeless and traveling can be much the same, your worst enemy are those scrondrels claiming to be the law, even if you yourself are abiding by it, know the law better, and are much more firmly rooted in the history and evolution of Ethics and just use of force. You literally always must explain yourself, and constant background checks if you look a little rough from traveling. Never was a issue in the 19th century, much less the 18th when our legal system was codified. Ben Franklin would of been arrested for Vagrancy in his travels to Philadelphia, and lectured by a judge about his lack if morals and virtues, and given a unpayable fine and criminal record.

Its criminal in the 21st… which is worrisome given how the economy contracts and expands like a organ every time new taxes or socialist programs get rammed through, causing unemployment when the economy crashes.

Few topics piss me off more than this.

Turd is completely wrong about the Living Constitutions philosophy. It isn’t some new post-modern, Wittgensteinian concept. It originated with Thomas Jefferson–who wrote the constitution-- and Chief Justice Marshall who was one of its first major interpreters. So, it was the original intent of the Founding Fathers for the Constitution to be a living document. Apparently Turd doesn’t think our Founding Fathers knew what they were doing.

Secondly, him saying a Living Constitution means the Constitution absolutely changes shows he misunderstands Jefferson and Wittgenstein. The document doesn’t change; it adapts its principles to situations and scenarios the Founding Fathers couldn’t predict like: the internet, airplane travel, airplane trade, assault weapons, car driving licenses. If the Constitution wasn’t a living document, it couldn’t rule on any of these issues. That would be lovely.

P.s. The constitution never said a corporation was a person, so I assume Turd was against the Citizens United ruling.

No there’s more to it. The Sovereigns get themselves completely emancipated from the system by using the constitution in its strictest sense.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign … n_Movement

I remember reading about a case where one of these guys was immune to criminal prosecution in a court with a yellow fringed flag (which represents admirality jurisdiction or some such thing). I don’t know what he said or how he did it, but he walked away. They couldn’t technically try him in the court because he was an individual corporation or something, and wasn’t under the jurisdiction of that court. He had revoked his social security and his nom de guerre; that’s the fake name you are given on your card… all in caps. He was no longer a citizen. Crazy shit. Damn I wish I remember the details. This was four years ago when I read this. Google around. You’ll find some intriguing stuff.

Yes, you are referring to the sovereign citizen movement. As I told you, its not recognized by the government. Once in a while one if these people try to shoot at the cops abs get killed or dragged to jail themselves.

The gold fringes around the flag indicates it is a military flag (the a golden threads around the flagz thousands of them), and is a tradition that matters deeply symbolically to non-combat soldiers in the military… combat soldiers don’t give a fuck about it, cause its just a fancier flag with a Aurora of bullshit around it.

The General’s command building had it. The flagpole did not, given that flag was exposed to the elements and the threads would of flown off.

Military courts can convict civilians, but only under rare circumstances. This was a ruling by the supreme court, that decided that US Citizens couldn’t be held to the military court system as it differed substantially… I think the very first case occurred to a military housewife.

Basically… Let’s say you have your van parked on a slab city on a abandoned military base… cops can’t enter, as its a military base (unless the commanding officer agrees). Sheriff can’t, as its not his jurisdiction. State patrol can’t either.

So the military commander needs to send MPs to arrest you… but abandoned military bases obviously lack MPs. So its a logistical and coordination hassle… the residents of the slab city will have to be doing something really fucked up other than communally parking their vans and RVs for whatever low ranking 2nd Lt. assigned command of this base thousands of miles away in the Pentagon to even notice… he has a desk, and a computer… he has games to play.

But if the MPs do show up, its most certainly not going to be a military court that will process them. They may be held in the brig of a base, have been proceed paperwork by jag, but eventually normal police will take you to a baliff. Exceptions being say, a AWOL soldier living in that camp… his ass gets processed.

The problem is, some of the stuff is rooted in fact tbat you mentioned, but the facts are twisted well out of their legal capacity. Its not a universal system of reasoning.

You can, for example, renounce your citizenship while living in the US, but you will still be regarded under the law as a US Natural. Only Samoans and people in the Virgin Islands can successfully do this within a US territory, as neither are born with citizenship (unless one parent was born America). Its because of how the territories became territories in the first place.

A Puerto Rican activist figured this out, and moved to Venezuela and renounced his citizenship. State department said fine… fuck, whatever. He then pointed out he was entitled to a Puerto Rican birth certificate in exchange… and if he got it, it would give credence to the legal theory the territory was still de jure a independent state under foreign jurisdiction. This caused some head scratching in the state department, so the solved the impasse by sending him back a US Passport and saying they fucked up before.

Now, if you renounce your citizenship and travel overseas, and you are deported out of that country… the US acknowledges it has to take you back, as your a US Natural. Best of luck getting your social security card back though… life will always be a bitch from that point on.

Anything other misconceptions you need sorted out in regards to the sovereign citizen movement? I assure you, though not a lawyer, I am better placed to explain their presumptions about how the law operates than they do… they get arrested all the time cause courts don’t recognize their claims. Its like saying your a Mason to the judge and as a descendent of the knights templars, your above the court’s jurisdiction. Judges like hearing that shit… they whip out their Iphones and tell you to say that again, and post it to Facebook later. Then they beat such individuals with their gavels till they yield to the jurisdiction of the court. It is, in fact, why judges gave gavels in the first place.

The school of jurisprudence seeing the Constitution is a “living Constitution” didn’t start with Wittgenstein or Wittgensteinian thought. It started with Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the thing, and Chief Justice Marshall, who was one of the first justices to interpret it. And it doesn’t say the Constitution is “a highly flexible document that can mean whatever the hell we want it to mean” and “poof shit changes.” It means the document needs to be able to be adapted to new situations and problems the original writers couldn’t foresee. If it didn’t do so, there could be no Constitutional laws written about Internet issues, assault gun issues, auto driving issues, and others.

So, Turd’s gross misunderstanding shows a poor knowledge of our Founding Fathers, Constitutional law, and Wittgenstein…who did not espouse discursive relativity.

You didnt read the part you quoted, did you?

Read it again, the part between the (…).

What does it say?

That’s right bitch.

And yes, as I noted, I AM referring to a school of Jurisprudence based off of Wittgenstein, don’t fucking tell me I am not. I said you could Google it. Tell me the name of this book title, and the name of chapter 1.

I will for you, as your certain to lie.

Title: The Flexible Constitution
Chapter 1: Wittgenstein, Law, and Originalism

books.google.com/books?id=l7sTc … ts&f=false

I mean, honestly… I study the law, was a member of several philosophy groups, knew a shitload of lawyers, and was even a member of a Wittgenstein group while living in San Francisco.

How in the fucking hell do you accuse me of lying about this? Its very fucking clear it exists, and I heard about it, had an awareness at the very least, and your own selected proof literally proves me correct. It proves your a liar. A bad one.

“Got-cha”

Maybe you can post under Periphial to counter this claim and lie again.

Or better yet, apologize. At what point in my satire am I not engaged in a legitimate dissection of the inherently absurd possibilities inherent in this school of thought? Any attempt at checks and balances they make are incredibly weak.

At what point in your blantant lying are you serving the needs of philosophical discourse? Is this what they taught you in debate class? Lie, cheat, demean, and evade?

You might wanna do some more research on your precious movement if you identify with it, its firmly under Wittgenstein now, and this scares the hell out of me. Floppy noodle legalism, contorted to be whatever some elitist leftist faction wants it to be.

It’s simple Ferg. Life and the material relations of human beings is dynamic and evolving, forcing any rules or laws to eventually become outdated and inapplicable. Like I said earlier, according to this constitution I should be able to drive my vehicle without having to register or pay taxes on it because it isn’t for commercial use. Today, such a rule is ridiculous. Look at the things these Sovereigns do everyday. These guys are getting out of court charges because of some constitutional rule that courts exists for individual parties, something which a ‘state’ cannot be, and so cannot try an individual in a court of law (the state vs. so and so). Imagine what society would be like if the constitution was adhered to literally. Total chaos. Did you know techincally I shouldn’t be taxed if I’m a wage worker, because a wage is not a ‘profit’?

There are all kinds of these little details that these Sovereigns are exploiting. If everybody did this, society would devolve back to the eighteenth century. The constitution will always be under gradual modification because it has to be to promote stability in a dynamic society.

I read what you wrote. You still referred to the philosophy as Living Constitution, which does go back to the Founding Fathers…and yet you neglected to mention them. That’s your bad, not mine.

Are you 12? I haven’t heard that since Junior High. Try growing up a bit before you try to have grown up conversations.

Yes, I read all that. That doesn’t change the fact that you still neglected to mention Jefferson and Marshall, and still misinterpreted Wittgensteinian thought.

Congratulations. I’m sure your parents are very proud. However, if that is true, why did you neglect to mention Jefferson and Marshall who are central to Living Constitution thought, and why did you misrepresent Wittgensteinian thought? Also, how exactly do you “study the law”? Did you go to law school? And, if you were a part of Wittgensteinian group, why are you misrepresenting his philosophies?

Now, you’re the one who needs to read better. I never said you were lying; I just correctly pointed out how you were wrong; and you are.

That’s hilarious. The only one who needs to apologize is you. And the only weak thought was your failure to show “absurd possibilities” in a school of thought shared by many Supreme Court and high court justices, as well as top lawyers.

No, it’s not firmly under Wittgenstein now. Do you really think Jefferson, Marshall, and centuries of legal scholars can be tossed aside from that school of thought?..Apparently you mistakenly can.

No… your not getting it, no individual can legally become a corporation, the links or the people who told you this was lying to you, and you fell for it. Evidence of this is they told you money was involved, you had to pay. The IRS as well as your state secretary’s website, and the small business association can provide you proper information as to how. These Sovereign Citizen guys are very unlikely to provide you with the correct forms and filing instructions, and any money you give them almost certainly will be used on buying drugs or prostitutes on their end. You will be defrauded.

Now, two people can form a coporation, such as a husband and wife business. Both of them will be officers in the company, and held legally responsible, but its less risky than a sole propriotorship. We also have LLCs, Limited Liability Corporations, which isn’t what your speaking of either.

You have merged the concept of “sovereign citizens”, which is a movement of political thought originating in the train of reasoning of meth heads, with corporations… which is a legal institution brought together by a group to pursue economic enterprise.

Sovereigns have zero legal powers over that of what you, I or anyone else has. They claim they have more due to their capacity to bullshit and convince you otherwise. The law tends to treat these idiots harshly.

This guy got tasered, in court. He had zero powers. Judge had a bailiff with a taser.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU

I want you to compare your beliefs in the powers if these “sovereigns” and what really happened. He got tasers, cuffed, and arrested. He used all the special words, talked the talk, and the cops didn’t give a damn. Why? Cause only people who believe in the soveign citizen movement’s legitimacy are felons or drug users, which cops and courts don’t like.

You may not like it, but that is reality. They control the courts, have the guns (and a occasional taser, as shown in the video).

m.youtube.com/watch?v=M48dt67xknE

This couple was either mentally retarded, or seriously fucked up by drugs:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=InTr2i3JqEE
m.youtube.com/watch?v=JnGXnysFkdU
m.youtube.com/watch?v=SqdpuGVvXMs
m.youtube.com/watch?v=uPyvVFlI56I

Stuff written about Sovereign Citizens by authorities (the real ones)
policeone.com/investigations … -Citizens/

m.policemag.com/article/2371/sov … ent-danger

m.dailykos.com/story/2010/04/14/ … n-Movement

abajournal.com/mobile/mag_ar … l_filings/

That’s all I’m linking to for now. There is a belief in some the delusional beliefs stem from the Dunning–Kruger Effect:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

It is my strongest recommendation to NOT pay anyone for courses, do NOT pay anyone for soveign citizen filing fees or sovereign citizen documents.

I’m not big on counterfeiting, but I’m going to let you in on a secret… cops aren’t gonna prosecute you if you just counterfeit your own fake as shit sovereign citizen documents over “buying them” from some fake as shit con artist claiming some bullshit authority. If you insist on doing this, do it for free, and just bullshit your way through the lines… nobody will know any different, as the end result is the same… you will be tasered, beaten, dragged into court, testify, and will be convicted or not convicted, and if not convicted its not because your right, but rather the Judge sees no actual legal reason to convict you, if anything, claing your a sovereign citizen makes this less likely and he might just jail you out of spite.

Call bullshit all you want, just please… don’t spend any money on them. Its a scam aimed at those who don’t know any better. Cops will not be nearly as sympathetic to you as I am now.

To whom, exactly was that addressed? I didn’t talk about any of that stuff.

Alright… I believe your the first, and hopefully the last person I ever caught, beyond all reasonable doubts, lying on this site periphial. I for the first, and hopefully last time, was forced to report you.

The fundamental reason why is, you are clearly lying, without anything resembling justifiable mitigating circumstances, such as we are debating a abstract nebulas concept, such as “what is metaphysics” where parties can become impassioned, or talking about something mundane such as haircuts, or a really fucked up idea.

I presented a idea in the form of traditional political satire, correctly identified it as such… and then you attacked it, claiming I didn’t, and that I was really referring to something else, even though in your evidence I clearly am innocent of this claim… I said it had earlier precedents, but is now a school dominated by Wittgenstein. These are verifiable facts, and proceeded to do so. More books and studies exist beyond this, that was merely the first thing I found when I googled.

Note its not your language, nor your intention to critic (a critic is just as protected as a satire, and well, mine was a mixture of both and the return is expected). But you didn’t critic, you lied.

Also know I’m not upset you used a second account.

I don’t expect you to get a warning or a ban. I don’t desire that. Feel free to actually engadge the substance of what I wrote, more shall follow. Purpose of notifying the staff is not note your character as a proven fraud, so when others complain in the future of your actions, the mods can note you have a past, unreoentent pattern of doing this.

You were outright lying, for no valid reasons. You didn’t show I had a character fault, you were not apparently fishing for more details. This was just a naked attempt to warp the facts and lie. You can ad hom me, I’ll ad hom you back… whatever, but you can’t operate with others on a philosophy board if you seek to sabotage positions you don’t like by lying about them. It further puts the facts of your position in doubt.

Reconsider in the future. I never once, EVER, had to write a post like this, or had to report anyone to the mods. Even the people I hold lowest on this forum have 100 times more integrity than you do. Why? They may present the wrong ideas, they may hold to impossible positions and make a ass of themselves in the process… or I make a ass of them, but at least there is a presumed honest streak to them. I can say this of Sauwelios, Cezar, Satyr, Lys, Pandora. Ecmandu is delusional and stupid. I can’t say this of you. Your a liar and a scrondrel, and now everyone will be watching you like a hawk.

I lied about nothing, and you didn’t show in any way that I did. I just showed how what you said about Living Constitution philosophy and Wittgenstein was wrong. Nothing you said about them were “verifiable facts.” You just rambled; so, you owe me another apology. And my name is Wilf Netherton, thank you.

Well, you lied about your identity, Peripheral. Ban is permanent now as a result.