Trump Supporters: How Can We Bridge the Gap?

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
81

It’s quite obvious to me that nobody here wants more social Authoritarianism to be imposed on them.

There are a few who dishonestly insist that all the left want this, e.g. insisting on referring to Authoritarianism as Communism as though they were the same.

A long overdue compromise on their part would be to admit the truth that it is not the case that non-Trump-supporters necessarily want the US to be China. That’s not what leftism is, though both right and left can sometimes be after Authoritarianism.

Of course it’s true that there are SJWs out there who want to violate the US constitution in multiple ways, and that they identify as left - yet to me they are as far from the left as fascists. Some people make sense of this as the “left and the right both extending so far that they meet up as if on a circle” and/or that it’s simply extremism that’s wrong whether rightist or leftist. I think SJWs simply confuse the “good will” that they wrongly attribute to themselves as leftist, without realising they’re far right. Too many here stupidly resort to the sweeping generalisation that all the left are SJWs to force a vulgar sense into this that isn’t there.

The left and right both want things to improve - they have that in common - and often they are both after common ground like less oppression. More often than not, they seem to only disagree on how to get there.

There’s plenty of ground to bridge the gap, but evidently there are some here who have no shame celebrating their dismissal of this, and rejecting all attempts even before they’ve begun.
These fanatics are the enemy of all of us, insisting their way or nothing at all. This bull-headed desire exemplifies the ultimate in oppression, and an overt rejection of democracy and political differences: the little Hitlers of the forum insisting they are the saviours in support of freedom. So despite there being plenty of ground to bridge the gap, these types simply don’t want to - I think above all else they desire conflict and an enemy, and will find see one even in a potential ally.

82

I don’t see it that way.

Those on the right are not saying that the voters on the left want any authoritarianism. What they are saying is that the policies that the left wing voters want will bring authoritarianism.

From the right, it is apparent that the left wing voters don’t realize what their policies will bring (in the most part). The right sees the left as being foolishly politically naive - the Pied Piper effect or what I have pointed out as “carrot on a string”.

A similar example is the one when pro-communists don’t understand that real-world communism is reflected by the CCP - seriously authoritarian. The true hearted purist communist isn’t after authoritarianism (exampled by you I believe) but that is what he will certainly get and bring to the entire world by pushing it.

83

I’ll take “aww what a poor foolish naive soul” over “the underhand liars and cheats hate freedom and actively want to destroy it”.

You’ll be aware that your preference to patronise over accusing others of evil isn’t shared by all the Trump Supporters here, I’m sure.

Perhaps in this vein you’ll agree that we all here want to avoid social Authoritarianism, and maybe even acknowledge the other side of the coin that the left often see the right as the foolishly naive Pied Pipers?

At least admitting this far would represent a small step towards “bridging the gap”. A gesture away from this “Our Truth” versus “Their Truth” divisiveness nonsense could go a long way.

84

That is because they are talking about the leaders - puppet masters toward an evil end. And the leftists are generally doing the same thing calling Trumpsters “a cult”.

Certainly but there is still a difference in the manner of puppeting.

I think the right wing supporters see the left wing supporters as being in the engine compartment feverishly feeding the boiler and not paying any attention at all to the fact that the train is on a track straight off a cliff.

Does the left wing voter really think that the right wing voters favor corporate corruption and manipulation of the US by republican leaders? I can tell you the right wing voters do not. Is the right wing voter feeding the boilers to a train leading off a cliff? Perhaps they are - but a different cliff.

The issue in my mind is that neither is watching exactly to where the train is actually headed - with one exception -

The left doesn’t care about fraud or lies that support their narrative. The right hates fraud and tries to avoid even favorable lies - the left is (defined by) those who resist law, order, and morality and the right is (defined by) those who favor constitutional law, order, and morality (in the US).

But the LEADERS manipulating BOTH wings are completely focused on manipulating toward more power - just different means of power.

What I think is that -

  • the left voters need to seriously change track.
  • the right voters need to straighten out their track to avoid those curves (corruption).

But that would take changing leadership on both sides.

I was about to say that myself before I read your post. :smiley:

And I have tried to get you to that point on other threads - unsuccessfully.

85

Personally I regard any devotion to a specific leader to be cultlike - especially after they are no longer in a position of leadership.
Devotion to a specific set of principles and ideologies isn’t quite as fawningly puerile, but either case requires a sufficient degree of self-aware criticism of one’s own leanings to rid the nausea from any support that you have to give.

By all means be in favour of what the guy represented to you, and any achievements you think can be attributed individually to just him alone, but surely you can find a guy who isn’t so extremely disgusting and loathesome as a human being? I’d quite freely grant you every achievement that you think can be attributed individually to just him alone, which nobody else would have done, if you’ll admit that rewarding his kind of behaviour is exactly the opposite to what the world needs. Is it really him specifically that you support, or are there any reservations at all that you have about the guy? Is it just that he happened to be the one who got to where he did that you need him so much, in spite of everything else? Would you defend a Democrat in the same position, or is it just that he was Republican? If you suspected fraud that you think disadvantaged anyone else would you fight so adamantly for them too?

Perhaps they are indeed. Perhaps the left are, perhaps not.

Do any of us really know?

Perhaps there is cliff in all directions, perhaps we are straddling a hole and any direction would get us away from it, perhaps whatever trajectory we’re on is the best possible and we’re all just being unrealistic.
It’s the attitude of absolute certainty when it comes to social sciences like politics that’s the most reprehensible. Things like pure math and logic have answers that can be certain. Adherence to definitions can be right or wrong. These are the only areas where I’ve been presenting certainty where I happen to know there is certainty. I do not present certainty elsewhere and I’m sick of people who do.

Right, the left don’t care about fraud or lies, sure.

The left are all expedient Machiavellians and the right are all just so goddamn pure and just and true. And the left all think that the right are all about corporate corruption and manipulation by the US republican leaders… okay then.

Anything else you want to tell the left that they believe? Fuck this noise.

Yes, the left need to do better, absolutely. Any of this authoritarian SJW shit can go back to the far right where it belongs, and if there wasn’t so much adversarial factionalism over the best way to progress, or default deference to the “least controversial” mainstream-establishment candidate, then the left would dominate politics.

Nobody voted for specifically Biden. They all voted either for democrat and against republican, or against the embarrassing abhorrence of Trump himself. The left are ravenous for an anti-establishment candidate of their own - if only the Tulsis or Bernies could get past this glass ceiling of career politicians, such that we could get a real human being in power instead of this nothing-zombie who “at least isn’t Trump”… but anything to get that orange twat off the news, seriously.

86

I think if you don’t stop and take time to smell the roses they are far too quickly forgotten.

87

Good points.

Gonna check Chomsky’s Project Censored out.

Sometimes, but not always, both the fringe-left and fringe-right are better than the so called center-left and center-right, which’re in fact two heads of the same technocratic corporatist beast.
Sometimes the fringe-left and fringe-right, like Tulsi Gabbard and Rand Paul in the US, actually have more in common with each other than they do with the center.
On the other hand, there are some fringe factions of the left and right that’re just as bad or even worse than the center, communists on the one hand and hardcore Christian fundamentalists for example on the other.

I mean don’t get me wrong, I’m not terrified of a little social conservatism, like bringing prayer back in school doesn’t terrify me (as long as they don’t force atheist and agnostic kids to participate) even tho I’m an agnostic, these days I’m much more concerned with social progressives who’ve practically been written a blank check by big brother/tech to cash for their heart’s desire.
Also, I think people have way too many hang-ups these days about any kind of nationalism, whether it be civic or ethnic, and not enough reservations about globalism and xenophilia.

88

Project Censored is here…
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q … qYX19t3SCN
I ususally check out there 25 top censored stories.

I find it very complicated. There are things I may agree with center holders. But there are certain things they NEVER look at, will not even consider are rational, and in other parts of their beliefs support openly things I dislike and without meaning to things they do not consider real. It’s not like disagree with all things they say, but the elephant in the room (and its facets) they will not notice.

Yes, and I noticed in the last election that some Sanders and some Trump followers realized that the media were undermining both candidates, also the two parties. I think there was some sense that those two candidates did not have the approval of the elites and even if they are nearly opposite each other their followers could see the mistreatment. But any common ground there is I think long gone.

Neo cons and neo libs, I’d add.

I don’t think people quite understand that the choice is between nationalism and nationalism where the nation is some behemoth like the EU. It’s not like nationalism goes away, it just becomes a decultured, historyless nation that one is nationalistic about. My parents wer immigrants, from native English Western countries, Canada and England, so I never really got the kind of enraged patiotism nationalism of some of my US peers. Much of the greatest nation, world police, we’ll nuke you, and racist stuff just seemed alien to me, because it literally was. I mean, they didn’t mean particularly England or Canada had better look out, since they considered Canada more or less an extra state and nothing to think about and England a has been, but a buddy, for the most part. I saw the US as an incredible mixed bag. Yes, many things to be incredibly proud of but then also many things to be ashamed of. So I sort of came up in liberal circles, wandered farther and farther left, though with no attraction to communism. Then I got a sense that things were going on in the background. It’s weird, when I was a kid the left were the main conspiracy theorists. And I think they were right about a lot of stuff - how industry controlled government, what the US was doing in South America, plans by then the more Right end of deep state to want more control and what was really going on with the drug war, for example.

It’s very odd for me to find myself a conspiracy theorist with my main support on the more radical right. I am not saying the Left was peachy back then, but the idea that there were systematic problems, involving both parties, government and industry, intelligence agencies and the FBI, I mean this was taken almost for granted, not by liberals, but move a bit further out on the left and just a given. Now if you move in that direction you are seen as a right wing nutjob, which has really pissed me off at the left.

I sometimes think they just tag team us. OK, let’s use the Left to move forward our agenda, ok, now the right.

89

There will be no bridging of any gaps. So you all can just remove that idea from your head.

90

Karpel,

You are 100% correct. The elites are changing the magnetic field of the poles from left to right. This is intentional. It’s to confuse people.

91

This is one of the stupidest comments on the forum of 2020, congratulations.

Go play with some psychic crystals and perform tarot card readings, shyster.

92

I don’t play with crystals or tarot cards. But I know you’ve been duped.

The democrats were always the party that raised against monopoly and pollution. Now monopoly and pollution are cool. Talk about your advertising!

Wait?! What’s the other issue?! Illegal immigrants?!

All our shit is made in China now… that’s over 1 billion illegal immigrants!!!

93

To me, while I don’t agree with them on everything, Tulsi Gabbard and Rand Paul are like the left and right side of common sense.
They’re the real center, closer to what most people actually believe in, so why don’t they vote for them?
Probably a combination of brainwashing and rigged elections.
Why’re they unelectable?
Because the MSM told us that and enough people bought the lie.
The more populist factions of the NDP and Maxime Bernier would be the equivalent of them for Canada.

94

And who is Rand Paul and Tulsi Gabbard?
Rand Paul is a national libertarian, and Tulsi Gabbard is a war veteran who’s anti-regime change wars, and a social democrat who focuses more on the economy and bringing people together rather than divisive identity politics.
And who are the centrists, your Bushs, Clintons, Obamas and Bidens?
They’re liberal fascists and more recently medical fascists.

95

I agree with that although I didn’t like the prospect of Ms Gabbard being commander and chief (despite her military background).

They were not electable for that very reason. Being electable means - willing to obey the U.N. dictates - having nothing to do with “common” sense, but global authoritarian sensibilities - “Bushs, Clintons, Obamas, Bidens”.

96

Yes, really! I always appreciated Phaedrus thoughts on various philosophical matters back in the day, hence why I have a Phaedrus quote in my sig! Glad to see him/her still posting here.

But also yes, I still think the two sides lobbing insults at one another is not going to “bridge the gap” so to speak.

97

I’ve conceded several things in this thread, and have already stated several times that the my positions are not well represented by the right OR the left.

98

I think you are right about that. But I think Gloominary was talking about the parties (again not distinguishing them from their leaders), not you personally.

99

I don’t think people with TDS are actually savable in all of this. Such deeply hypnotized trauma would take more treatment than heavy narcotic use.

They will sacrifice anything to satisfy their inexplicable hatred and will never change or ever understand their disease. As rational people they are already dead - I see dead people balking. :frowning:

100

I rarely hear anyone calling for more left or right social authoritarianism here (at least in the strictest sense of the word social, I do hear people calling for more gun and immigration control).
I think the same is mostly true of Joe and Jane average, but TPTB don’t care what they think.
Many if not most of this forum’s disagreements are over economics and more recently over Covid.

I know you, Promethean and Peter Kropotkin aren’t interested in identity politics.
I’m sure SJWs would tend to shy away from forums like this.
Besides they have mainstream (social) media to turn to, whereas forums like this are all we have.

I think we have some common ground.
While I’m not a communist, I am a social democrat.

It’s very dangerous and stifling to give the state near absolute control over the economy or any domain.

Right, you’re a communist, but in favor of constitutional, democratic and peaceful transition, rather than trying to bring it about at gunpoint.

Right I get that, Marx wasn’t an SJW, it’s not something central to communism, it’s something peripheral that developed later in the mid-late 20th century and really took off in the early 21st.
There are some contemporary libertarian socialists and Marxists like Chomsky and Zizek who believe it’s more of a hinderance to Marx’s original aims.
I know there are many schools of thought on the left just as there are many on the right.
I don’t consider myself left or right, I prefer the term populist.
There are aspects of both left and right populism that appeal to me.

Can’t argue with that, that’s a great starting point, the vast majority left and right want to see things improve, but we disagree on what that’d look like exactly and how to get there.

And of course that’s exactly what TPTB want to see, the middle and lower classes fighting with each other over our differences, which’re insignificant compared to the difference between us and the ruling class.