truth and lies

:laughing: hi there… can anyone out there tell me what this quote means…

“they invented truth to hide all their lies.”

i woke up from a dream last night… in the dream, i recieved a letter from an anonymous source… the letter contained this quote… this is as far as i can remember…

i do believe that in dreams we sometimes get important messages… things we need to know and understand… when i woke up, i thought this quote had to have some sort of a philosophical meaning… a meaning that i find hard to understand… please help me out cause this quote has been on my mind all day… thanks… :laughing:

check out “The Name of the Rose” by Umberto Eco… (they even made it into a movie)

-Imp

Whenever we speak about “Truth” we also remember its counter part “False”. Because the human mind operates by differentiating logical patterns and logic is all about two alternatives: 1 and 0, true and false, high and low, etc…

Observing the reality more closely will reveal that there are self-sufficient beings/objects/creations/concepts and also there are hollow ones.

So what is the truth?

The TRUTH is NOT relative. It can only be relative if you are using your own mind as a reference, which is wrong.
For instance:

You see a mouse - it moves - it goes behind a big stone - you no longer see the mouse.

This is a simple sequence of events happening in time.

Now after any time you might assume/predict/believe/imagine that:

A ) The mouse is still hiding behind the rock.
B ) It is no longer there.

Remember that your mind has the ability to consider any possible or impossible answer for any equation! Because you have a copy of those sequences of events in your memory you can manipulate them as you see fit.

The TRUTH always exists outside of your mind in the universe! If you consider the answer that matches the outside world then you are correct, otherwise wrong.
So very clearly as it has been disassembled, you can see that FALSE only appears in our minds. It does not exist in the outside world and hence the Existence = Truth.

So basically False is the lack of Truth just as Dark is the lack of Light, only one of them exist.

Hi naradai,

I think that it is just saying that “they” modified their reasoning of what they know is true in order to justify their current actions or thoughts, which they know are ‘lies.’ Maybe out of shame, I dont know… In any case, it’s your dream. Maybe it is something you had been thinking about earlier or something. Deep quote though.

an “invented truth” is a lie.

so they lied to hide their previous lies. Which makes sense, since it sounds like the consolidation of lots of smaller, but increasingly high maintenance, lies into one “invented truth”.

How can you avoid using your own mind as a reference?

naradai rodolfo,
I think in our world that quote is phrased like this rather, ‘they invented lies to hide all truth.’ Any other thing, I don’t know, I may be ignorant. Whatever…

Celestial Intellect,
Logic is not all about “alternatives.” It is about synthesis, synthesising information to reach a feasable conclusion. That is why the computer uses the 0 and the 1 to synthesise and not either 0 or the 1. It’s CHOICES that are all about alternatives and so we choose either that or this. You seem confused.

And of course, “the truth is not relative” in the sense that if we don’t know that the earth is flat before discovering it is round, we can still say it is round and that is not relative to anything. However, it is still relative to something NOT round or how would you say that it is round?

Moreover, we never use our own mind as a reference point, we just use it. If we used our mind as a reference point as you say, then our mind would be separate from us and so how would we think?

You say, “The TRUTH always exists outside of your mind in the universe.” And I say that’s impossible! The truth will always exist in our mind because that’s how we perceive it and know about it. However, our mind could just be a small fraction of the greater mind or the collective conciousness and so we may not know the big truth. But the little we know will be because it exists in our mind. The other truth that we don’t know is because our mind has limitations and cannot comprehend the greater mind. Even when a revelation comes to someone from the greater mind, it’s because it came to their mind first and that’s how they perceived it.

And your “Existence = Truth” cannot be true because then would you say that non-existence is a lie? Or the fact that someone does not exist anymore is a lie? No! Their non-existence is still a truth!

To make a long story short, truth will always be relative because how would we define it otherwise. And that my dear is the reason why we see contradictions, mistakes, blunders, innovations, discoveries, inventions, this extreme and it’s opposite extreme. Perhaps as someone has said, “Life is truth” is what truth really is! Because in this truth we don’t just see existence but non-existence too. My dear that’s how we define existence, or how would you? Hence life is not only self-satisfied but self-explanatory too thereby making it COMPLETE. And perhaps the BIG TRUTH is nothing more than a generalization of our smaller truth. Just what I feel :smiley:

Firstly I would ask you not to take the simplicity of my argument for fun; in fact I think many of our problems start from simple things.

A logical question, can only have two answers, these two answers can be anything depending on the question. However the questions that may have more than 2 possible answers can be divided to the smaller question which respectively can have less possible answers and finally the simplest statement , which is a logical statement that is either true or false.
In a sense it is similar to the fundamental theory that everything is made of smallest undividable bits.

In digital electronics the voltage in a wire is either high or low, however this does not mean that they are 1 and 0 or in one wire is voltage and in the other not, in fact the high voltage could vary for instance be 3.3v and the low be 0.65v, yet these two are in effect used to control logic gates.
I was certainly not talking about the purpose of logic and its usage but rather I was pointing out that logic uses only two alternatives; perhaps the way I arranged my words made BeenaJain to define logic or perhaps he/she did not notice the first part of my sentence that “the human mind operates by differentiating logical patterns” and he/she used the word “synthesise” which means “to combine or blend and to produce”, human mind sometimes differentiate and sometimes integrates the information, all to seek the truth and balance the equation. Perhaps a bit of his/her statement and a bit of mine both produce a better definition for logic. It’s up to you guys to judge.

As for:

Now this is actually opens a new discussion on “How do we know or learn?” in fact yes, I agree that I know “dark” because I know “light”, but this is a long one and I’d rather post my comments on this issue in another time.
For now I only focus on heat/cold, dark/light and black/white:
I’m trying to show you that there are hollow concepts and self-sufficient ones.
We all know that we can see because of light and the less visible light is emitted in an environment the less we can see. Hence the darkness is the lack of dark, it is not a self-sufficient concept and in fact the word “darkness” rightfully should be “lack of light” because we indeed know it, first by knowing light and of course being able to see. However Black and White are two different qualities and we need neither of them to know the other.
As for Heat and cold it is scientifically proven that you can have as much heat as you want in the universe yet can not have anything colder than -247c. So cold is the lack of heat which is also the vibration of particles, basically you can not completely stop particles so we do not have absolute cold or absolute dark or absolute non-existence.
Now knowing this we can also prove that truth in essence is a singularity that is absolute and is equal to the existence that has not been affected by man. We could also prove that Truth = Existence = Good = Perfect after all have been discussed we shall argue that God exist. Also discuss how evil and impurity may enter the universe by an agent of free-will and lots more…

lol! By that I meant “to be sure that we and our information are absolutely correct and considering the others wrong” This can be epitomized/symbolised as considering our mind as a reference point which is indeed wrong.
I think I should be more careful with you, because you really love to play with words just as I do, however this is a waste of energy. Try to see what I actually mean, try to see the spirit of the words not just their appearances. Thanks for your kind co operation. Believe me you can understand a written sentence and write a sentence in many different ways, as many as there are different minds out there!

Now back to the Logic:

Check out these questions:
1- Where are we?
2- Are you confused?
3- What was/is the velocity of the object?
4- What is the “truth”?
5- Is this a joke?
6- How old are you?

Some of the questions can have only two answers while the others may have more than 2 answers. Also many of the answers may be logically inappropriate which are always false and others might be appropriate yet may also be false.
Please also do note that you can respond to a question by an improper answer which is yet in its own case a true statement. The reason that I mentioned this is because we usually love to play with words and I want to prevent that in future posts.

In the question: “How old are you?” or more accurately “What is your age?” you should respond by positive numbers. If your answer is “-23” then we would consider that as an inappropriate answer for the question. You could lie and say I’m 145 years old.” In this case although the answer seems to be a lie yet it is appropriate.

Anyone with a little bit of experience in programming and maths can understand this perfectly.

Let us check this question: “Are you confused?”

In this case apparently the answer could only be in two appropriate forms which implies that either the statement about the individual is true or false.

The appropriate answers could be sorted in two groups:

1-Yes, Positive, Correct, You’re damn right, Indeed I am, etc… (true)
2-Nope, Nah, No way, No, Are you nuts? hell no, etc…(false)

Yet more accurately the respond to the question may actually be in four different appropriate answers!!!

This is how:
If I’d been questioned;

A- I say “no” but I’m lying.
B- I say “yes” but I’m lying.
C- I say “no” and I’m telling the truth.
D- I say “yes” and I’m telling the truth.

Oh yes! The duality of logic in fact somehow multiplied by two because of human mind.

Now I want to start an even more fun discussion:

There are two different groups of words that we have in any language: Firstly the ones that are used in relation to any external experiences and lastly the ones that are used in relation to internal experiences.

Internal ones: love, hate, good, evil, beautiful, ugly, enjoyment, belief, wisdom, stupidity……

External ones: red, blue, heavy, light, warm, cold, dark, bumpy, smooth, far, close, sweet, sour……

I understand that some of you might consider a different way of sorting.

As you see every normal and healthy human being which constitutes most of the population, experiences the outside world just the same.
When I say “Green” we all know what we’re talking about but when I say “Evil” we have different ideas and understandings.

It seems that we do start learning the inner concepts from the outside world since we’re born.

We also seem to be communicating to one another indirectly, using words that we have different understandings of, especially the inner ones. As you see humanity has come a long way in science and technology, yet we’re still human beings! Who are selfish, stupid in love affairs and even bastards! and so on; because spiritually I believe we are not advanced at all! We’re primitive mammals! Damn that’s an insult! 21st century and we’re still like our ancestors or even worse who used to live in ancient times except that we have cars and mobile phones now, it’s not because we’re all humans, it’s because we haven’t developed spiritually/internally not a bit.

Enough babeling!

I will have to argue about intellect and intelligible and also that essence/knowledge predates or pre exists the material existence. In proving my points I will answer your comments however I do not have the time, perhaps later.

Celestial Intellect

  1. Your post is too long and VERY confusing. Please cut it down or put it in point form. Think about others trying to follow your thought, it is very difficult.

  2. “A logical question, can only have two answers.” Please be more precise. Give me an example.
    Is the color grey, black or white?

  3. Maybe light is a lack of darkness

  4. “Truth = existence”. Does truth only exist in the external world? Please define truth. Do you mean truth = fact?

  5. Truth depends on perspective. If X looks at a rectangular box from the side, it looks like a rectangle. If Y looks at it from the end. It looks like a square. Who is telling the truth?

  6. Evil is our own understanding, just as happiness is our own understanding.

  7. Only some individual humans are advanced. Humans collectively are not so advanced.

  8. Please limit your response to common sense. Make it as short as possible!

“In proving my points I will answer your comments however I do not have the time, perhaps later.”

Maybe you’ll have the ‘time’, if you kept your post shorter.

Where is the reply?

Firstly dreams can only be looked at subjectivly. So who is this “they” that your dream seems to refer? It sounds very much that your subconsious is telling you to dismiss some authority’s hypocracys or illusions.

The issue of “truth” on the other hand is understandable through the corresponance theory of truth. If your belief of what is, really is, then its true. If you say snow is white and snow happens to be white then its true. It doesn’t get any deeper then that.

Notice then how one cannot invent truth. So what the dream states is that they invented lies that they pass of as truth (very likely to themselves) to cover up their insufficiencies (perhaps).