Uncle Aporia's Quick-Acting Dubitizer

Christianity CAN be cured. Just try a bit of Uncle Aporia’s Quick-Acting Dubitizer! Applies like 1, 2, 3!

Phase 1: Dubitizing God’s existence.

  1. Realize that most Christians believe God can be known through the light of natural reason alone, i.e. through arguments which need no special revelation to understand. In fact Paul says that everyone is without excuse for not believing in God, since his knowledge and power is clearly visible in creation (Romans 1:21).
  2. Read the Christian arguments that are supposed to prove this claim.
  3. Read the criticisms of the arguments.
  4. Observe the disparity between Christian claim and actual success of arguments.

Phase 2: Dubitizing the historical claims.

  1. Read the New Testament.
  2. Read some historical criticism of the NT.
  3. Notice that many scholars doubt the Gospel’s critical narrative pieces are historical, and have reasonable arguments to justify that doubt.
  4. Notice that the story doesn’t make much sense (God sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself).

Phase 3: Putting it all together.
According to Christianity, God tells us that we need to believe all the stuff you’ve now read or we risk Hell. Stuff which at best has “some” chance of being true and at worst is clearly dubious or false. Do you respect a God who demands you believe dubious things, and threatens you with eternal punishment otherwise?

Now you may be doubting God, but still be scared if you might be wrong. But if God does exist, you can go to him as Russell did. “Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence!” If God’s reasonable, he’ll understand. If he’s not, you might be screwed – but did you really want to spend eternity in heaven singing the praises of the nutcase? I’d rather hang out with the good guys in hell – hope to see you there!

I think you got a nice, strong point on Phase one. It follows a neat sort of meta-argument path that I like- you aren’t bothering to argue that the arguments fail, just that they aren’t as solid and non-controversial as they ought to be for the work they need to do. That’s such a strong argument that I basically agree with it, to the extent that I think atheism is a stronger position than deism abstracted from any religion.
I think that same approach undermines your Phase 2 argument, though. From a meta-argument perspective, the criticisms of Biblical history that still exist are absolutely weaksauce compared to the skeptical view of a century ago (unless you’re Robert Price), and they really do smack to me of a grasping at straws- people who will not admit to the existence of miracles under any circumstances appear to feel the need to have some theory about the New Testament, and these days it’s largely unfalsifiable speculations about psychological states, which have nothing going for them except that a reference to the supernatural seems to be the only alternative. You and me have talked about this before, and I wouldn’t bring it up again, except that I think it goes against the flavor of your phase one- If one is asked to concede that in a general way philosophical arguments for theism have failed, one has to concede that in a general way historical defenses of New Testament claims have succeeded.

Point 4 in phase 2 is a fair criticism of a large portion of the evangelical Christianity a westerner is likely to be exposed to, so I won’t call it a straw man. Suffice to say you’re fairly criticizing a view I’ve no wish to defend.

Good points. I think the “God sacrifices himself to himself to save us from himself” is a brilliant way to put the appeal of the ‘martyrdom’ of Christianity’s supergod. Islam says ignorance is the cause of all sin, I think Christians would agree, and yet to think that the god that agrees that humans are not intrinsically flawed but simply ignorant (deliberate ignorance, from the view of a religious man, would also be due to a more primary ignorance), would throw them into an eternity of torment is just fantastic. Good points.

Uncle Aporia’s Quick-Acting Dubitizer AKA Uncle Aporia’s Misreading of Christianity.

aporia wrote:

Aporia–My response was meant as a playful ripost to your dubitizing elixer. I’m not claiming to possess the correct reading. Nor do I think your reading is uncommon. Rather, your reading of Chrisitianity strikes me as a reaction to your own childhood religion. It is certainly not the only way it can be read. For example, Romans 1:21 may be seen to be about intuition rather than argumentation. The historicity of Jesus may be on as firm a footing as many other widely accepted figures of the ancient world. Salvation may not require faith in every word in the Bible. Faith may not be a test of one’s willingness to believe doubtul things. Your position, like subset of Christianity you are reacting to, is only one among many available options.

felix,

I definitely agree with you that other legitimate readings of Christianity exist besides mainstream “orthodox” readings. But I think people beholden to those readings have to realize that there are reasonable doubts about them, before they become open to other readings. If you ask me personally how I feel about religion, I think my views are pretty similar to Karen Armstrong’s. Dubitizing isn’t about rejecting religion, it’s about breaking the shackles of fundamentalism and orthodoxy. Then we regain the freedom to interpret and develop religion for human flourishing, just as the axial founders did so many centuries ago.

Ucc,

Glad we’re at an understanding about the arguments for theism in general. I also agree that the biblical history case is harder for the atheist, since at the least it requires some serious scholarly knowledge. Naturalistic explanations don’t have confirming evidence, but that isn’t because they’re unfalsifiable. It’s because the evidence needed to verify/falsify them is not available, because our information from the NT times is highly incomplete and nearly all from the Christian perspective. When your evidence admits a variety of reasonable conflicting interpretations, that means your evidence is weak. And that’s all I need to make my argument, since my point is about the disparity between the strength of argument/evidence for Christianity and the commitment demanded.

I can see what you’re saying about our information being incomplete, but I think the lines are being drawn in places where historical evidence isn’t the issue anymore. Like the psychological theories- I don’t think there’s any tattered scrolls or potsherds you can find that will back that sort of thing up. It seems to me to be a case of ‘skepticism of the gaps’, where the theistic case is based on what we have, and the atheistic case is based on what we can come up with in the spaces between what we have.
But again, this isn’t an argument, it’s a meta (meta meta?) argument- I just think your generalization in 1 clashes with your generalization in 2. If I was getting into particulars, I’d defend theistic philosophical arguments that you’ve criticized in Phase 1, too. :smiley:

Hi Aporia,

It may seem a little assuming, but I think that Christians have been led astray from the source of their traditions precisely by the oversimplification of theology. I agree that there are numerous Christians who apply their modern but simple understanding of things to extremely subtle texts, which are trying to transmit more than just reports of occurrences they had experienced, philosophising issues, paraphrasing, using analogies and metaphors freely, composing stories out of basic reports, arranging stories to force issues and address topical issues.

The reason why this is a problem is that we do not have the basic experience of the churches of the day into which the scriptures were then speaking. The Epistles were not designed to be timeless, the Gospels had certain audiences, and the message was explaining the arising common phenomena of the day and strengthening the faith. The assumptions that many bible-reading Christians make today often fail to take this into account, mainly because their own experience is far removed from that of those early churches.

I agree with Felix on the quote, since the word translated as “knowing” can also be translated as “being aware of”. It also refers to idolatry that chose to worship objects and certain natural phenomenon, although the basis of all life and phenomena was also recognised. Polytheism too, has often been a perversion of the narrative form of philosophy, written in mythology and analogy, not as a primitive world view, as is often believed. The arguments that are proposed to support modern views of scriptural expression in many cases lack the basic humility of early Christianity.

The problem, however, with the critics of Christianity is that they are just as guilty of oversimplification, often blatantly so. I would, on many occasions, have hoped for a more intelligent approach, but it becomes very apparent that a constructive objectivity is lost in the partisanship (and sometimes even superstition) of varying disciplines or in a per se deconstruction of Christianity, without any idea of what could take its place, which is precisely one of the accusations made towards Christianities missionary aspirations. Critics of Christianity often act as blatantly irresponsible as the people they have in their targets.

The question of historicity is something that is blown out of proportion by Christians, as though this is the only way to show the teaching of Christianity to be valid. It reveals that Christians are just as deluded by the materialistic view as their opposition is. Of course the discussion that came about it the seventies was run very polemically and conducted by theologian-historians who chose to position themselves outside of the church, rather than inside, possibly because of the opposition they expected. Unfortunately they supplied the necessary criteria to fulfil their own prophecy in doing that.

It seems to me to be quite apparent that the Gospels are compositions of a recurring theme in varying situations, presenting the experience of Jesus in a way that suggested a significance that the Jews rejected. Basically it was far too subtle for most Jews living under occupation, just as the message is too subtle for Christians living in the modern day frenzy, which calls them out to form communities which offer a true alternative. Much of Christian community that we witness today is conform, conventional and plays the game according to other rules than those of Christ.

The churches of early Christianity were, of course, told by Paul to not be too prominent. However, they didn’t play according to the rules of those people around them. Their standards of community were higher, their spirit was loving and humble, and they experienced the Grace of God in their midst. It was the occasional collision with radical Jews, Roman Governors and unfortunately other radical elements amongst them that caused their problems, causing factions and loosing their coherence.

The simplification of the message was an answer to a question that we do not openly have in the modern day. Sacrifice was a part of everyday religious life which took on proportions that endangered anybody who rejected it. The teaching that Christ had made the last sacrifice, redeeming all of mankind, overcoming the guilty consciousness that was typical for the Greek piety of the time, is an argument that we do not identify with today. There are, however, modern equivalents of things and values sacrificed for superficial reasons. Christ leads us to transcend this kind of religion, entering into a new Covenant of the Spirit, of Intuition and Prophecy, and helps us realise the futility of religious ambition and of clinging to people, ideas and buildings etc.

Shalom

I don’t really have a comment pertaining to the subject, but I just wanted to say it is nice to see you, Bob.

Agreed. But your new avatar is freaky!