Universal Salvation is making more sense.

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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I am starting to believe that all of humanity was actually conceived, to eventually live forever with our creator. Now, I don’t know our creator, but I think its the one the book called the bible teaches about. I have researched many different books and sources, and I am more attracted to the God the bible refers to, but I disagree with how most interpret that bible, and man, how its seen differently by so many. But I am not closed off from other sources, because I have gleaned from many sources in coming to my current conclusions. Science has helped, archaeology has helped, language has helped, and common sense has helped. But I don’t think humanity made itself, or just grew out of nothing, nor do I see us as being continuous with the bloodline of speechless apes, nor are we the ancestors of things " Lesser than ourselves", such as rocks and chemicals.

But its not a simple subject, no matter how any of us view it, who choose to view it at all. Yet, I am thrilled to consider the salvation of all, verses these very limiting views of salvation that have been so popular.

Consider Job 23:13, ( speaking about God himself), " But he is of one mind and who can turn him? What his soul desires, that he does." Now, seems like a direct description, saying God does whatever he desires to do, and nothing can turn him away from doing it. But check this out, in 1Tim. 2:3-4, it states what God desires, “For this is Good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who DESIRES that ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth!”

Stunning! Simply incredible! God actually desires, or wants, or wills, that every single human ever conceived will be saved, ( or live with him in his paradise kingdom), and that we come to understand all that we don’t now realize. And it says this outcome is , to him, both Good and acceptable! Why then do so many believers in God, not accept this incredible salvation, and rather they accept things like the horrible doctrine of eternal punishing hell? What’s blocking this great message??

Why do we accept this hell stuff? Why is universal salvation not making more sense to us?

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  Well, the short answer is that you didn't make up heaven and you don't have any evidence that it exists.  The only justified reason to think for one moment that there's anything like the Christian afterlife is because a religious tradition which you aparently have conviction in the truth of tells you that it is so. 

This same tradition tells you that there is a hell with equal authority. 

Now, that being said, universal salvation is still possible.  We know very little about how the afterlife 'works'- the Christian tradition doesn't really flesh it out.  But given what it does say, it would be foolhardy to say that hell isn't real or that we don't need to consider the afterlife when deciding how to live in this one.  Maybe only people that choose hell go there, and maybe nobody chooses it. That is certainly one possibility. Or maybe if you are sufficiently defiant of God's will, he 'spits you out' and into hell you go. That's another possibility.  But I'm not going to judge the Bible based on what seems nice and pleasent to me, or even worse, on a transitory moral attitude of this present time and place.
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Ugh it works like this! God was confused, so he made Planet Earth. God made Earth because God was unsure how He was created. So he created Earth to bring life in the material realm. The devil, satan, lucifer, whined and complained like in this video because he thought the whole excerize was pointless and cruel.

whining and complaining[youtube]
youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM[/youtube]

So God, being the meglomaniac he is told him to shutup. and one thing you do NOT do is argue with a meglomaniac.

So one day a new life form evolves on the planet known as homos. This homo lifeform was unique. Even though they acted like chimps the females of the species looked like angels. The devil was aroused by this (always fancying his own reflection) so he went down to earth to fornicate. God did not like this not one bit (he does not like angels toying with his experiments) so he wouldn’t let Satan return to heaven. so Satan blasphemed God and told him that God was wicked an apathetic (which he was.) Thing about humans was they naturally evolved into angels through the power of science. Long story short humans evolved to have souls and they got trapped in the half-world Hades upon death. God could care less so Satan blasphemed God again and God made him chieftan of Hades, and the only way he can return back to heaven is when Hades is empty. So legend has it that he is trying to accomplish several things, reduce the world’s population (so no more souls go to Hades), and legend has it he is trying to merge part of this world to Hades to simplify the process. Also legend has it that he is responsible for mass killings (to hasten to process and reduce the amount of hardened souls, hardened souls are harder to get out of hades.) Also he made a bet with God that is why God sent himself down as G-bus Christe.

The end happy faerie tales!!! ~ Anne Rice

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Without eventual, universal salvation, the God of the Bible is a loser. It makes sense to think that if God created humans, that God would want to reclaim all that was lost. There are many Biblical passages that suggest universal salvation. Threads have already been done on this topic. Page 11 and others. Maybe you can add a new perspective.
Welcome to ILP!

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I am not religious, so I have no religious conviction. I am not a Christian, so I do not hold to any Christian tradition; I am not a fairy, so I hold no interest in fairy tales; I am interested in the real future of humanity, and not its fabricated one. Universal salvation makes sense " To me." To my reasoning, my evaluation of all knowledge that I understand. I am very hard to satisfy; but I believe in a spiritual existence; I do not believe that we are alone in this universe; its too big for there to be just us. And too marvelous for there to be only our theories; we are too relevant, to be only relevant to ourselves.

We are too conscious, to be only conscious of ourselves.

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If you are not Christian, what does universal salvation mean to you? Do you think humans will be able to save themselves from each other in some utopian future? The only persons we need saving from are ourselves.

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You made the choice to cite scripture to bolster your position of Universal Salvation, I’m just pointing out that scripture (and the tradition that gives it it’s validity) supports the notion of hell far more clearly.

If your actual standard is just to believe whatever you like, then obviously nobody is going to have an argument to shake you from your convictions.

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You had me up to this point. Evolution theory makes the most sense to me of how we got here. However, what would you say if I suggested that this evolving out of lesser things like rocks and chemicals is really an evolving out of God. If you just look at the objects themselves, as individuals so to speak, there really isn’t much to them–they aren’t that glorious or amazing–but if you look at the whole of which they are parts, the universe that is, and recognize that we came out of that, then it puts things in a slightly different light.

Just so you know, I’m a pantheist and an idealist, which is to say I believe God is the universe–it is alive and conscious–which may be different from your God: “…the one the book called the bible teaches about.” This God is depicted as individuated from the rest of creation, and that he is definitely not the universe, but stands outside it watching over us. If you were persuaded that God is the universe, would evolution theory fit into your worldview more easily?

Hmm, clever. But a few things occur to me:

When we say of someone that he does whatever he wants, we usually don’t mean that the person has supernatural powers and is omnipotent, we usually mean he does whatever he wants if it’s within his capacity. If this person wishes he had magical flying powers, he’s out of luck no matter how self-serving he is. And, yes, I realize that the God of the Bible is supernatural and omnipotent, but as a self-professed non-follower of any particular religion, I’m not sure whether you believe the same or not, or whether you’d be open to the possibility that God is not as powerful as the Bible and the Church depict him.

Second, when Tim. 2:3-4 says “who DESIRES that ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth!” it doesn’t say “saved before they go to Hell”–God may wish some souls to suffer in Hell for a while (as punishment for a wicked life, I supposed); what this really says is that Hell, if any of us are destined for it, is not eternal.

This is still pretty good news if you think about it: what’s a few thousand years in Hell when followed by an eternity in Heaven? ← And we all (eventually) get there.

Why? Was he trying to study creation?

Ha! Ha!.. homos.

We did? Based on what you said, the females of the species were already starting to look like angels, so it would seem the process got under way by the power of evolution, but then science steps in (I’m assuming at the brink of the Scientific Revolution in Europe) and finishes the job. ← Is that the story?

How does this happen?

Now, where have I heard this before–the whole idea of a realm being emptied of souls before something big happens–I think it was a Jahova’s Witness.

In any case, this hints at what I said to Mickiel about all souls eventually going to Heaven, even if some of them have to spend some time in Hell. Of course, no one ever said Satan would return to Heaven, but if God wants all men to go to Heaven in the end, and God always gets what he wants, then I suppose there will be a time when even Satan gets to go to Heaven again. He would be the last soul.

So what was the bet between Satan and God?

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Read the Rice.

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I’d rather not.

11

Dew it?

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myself i can’t fathom anything different. any ape looking at human culture would surely be speechless.

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Once again, what is it from which we need to be saved?

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Being reborn as a starving africa kid.

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It’s an interesting question. The textbook answer is: from our own sins, but by itself, this seems like a vacuous claim. You need the Devil to give this substance. We need to be saved from our sins because our sins lure us into the Devil’s hands. But then, this ends up sounding like victim blaming. We become susceptible to the Devil’s clutches by our sins and, if caught in his grip, we become destined to the firry pits of Hell. So why not say: we need to be saved from the Devil? If there was no Devil and no Hell, what would we need saving from? If it’s a matter of sin deserving retribution in Hell–that is, at God’s own hands–then it seems kind of odd God is at once our savior and our judge, and hardly seems to be the all-loving, benevolent father figure he is made out to be. Do we need saving from God? Is that why he came down in human form? To save us from himself?

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So from what would we be saved? A wrathful God? Avenging Satan? Ourselves? Conservative religion says all three.
It makes no sense that a human who lives a flyspeck of existence should deserve an eternity of heaven or hell. If there is not universal salvation, there is no compassionate, loving God. Surely God is more compassionate than I; and I could not beat my child for twenty years for some infraction done in a few seconds. The punishment does not fit the crime. The problem has to do with time as duration.
And why would I need a scapegoat Satan to blame for my own culpability? If there was some war in heaven between good and bad angels (Milton), who am I, a mere mortal, to be involved? All I can see of sin from a mortal POV is how I treat others and myself.

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So we need to be saved from everything. :laughing:

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Not exactly, Gib.

It is not the sins from which we have to be saved but ignorance only.

Sins and good deeds are bound to happen, if we choose what Adam and Eve opted for; trial and error method. Then, you have to move forth and back many times before reaching the destination. That is what is happening to the mankind.

Satan is not an evil person by intent, as it is generally understood. He is the Dean of the university, set up by the God himself.

If you can believe, prophets are there to show you the way. But, if do not and want to learn in person step by step, you have to become a student of Satan. He will make you learn and pass ultimately, no matter how much time and effort it will take. So, at the end of the day, both ways end up at the salvation.

Satan is both teacher and the judge, at the same time. He punishes sins and rewards for good deeds without any partiality. Sometimes he lures humans for sins to check whether they have been become wise and mature enough to realize and ignore the wrong temptations.

Expelling Satan from the paradise is mere a metaphor. He was the best amongst the Angles, both in faith and wisdom. The confortration with the god happened only when he was asked to bow to Adam, which he refused, while others did not.

Angles are not perfect beings, just for a simple reason that they cannot evolve further from what they are. They may be better the humans but there is still a doubt on their wisdom and ability because they never exercise their will, thus it cannot be said with certainty what will they do if allowed free will like humans.

But, the god did not want such simple minded and untested angles to take care of humans. That is why he arranged a test in the disguise of asking to bow to Adam. There was no need for the god to ask the angles to bow. It does not serve any purpose in the context. The god just wanted to know which angle has the courage to question him, and only Lucifer showed that.

I am not sure how it is illustrated in the bible but according to Islam, Satan clearly says that he will not bow before adam because he cannot even think of bowing to anyone else other than the god, besides claiming his superiority over Adam. In other words, he is saying that bowing to Adam puts him(Adam) at par with the God, and he(Satan) loves and respects god so much that he will not do that ever, even if he was thrown out of the paradise. That shows his character and standing for principles.

By asking the angels to bow before adam, the god hit two birds with a single stone. Firstly, he indirectly told Angles that they are still not perfect and Adam is better than them. Secondly, he sorted the best angel to train and test Adam and his forthcoming generations.

What scholars did not realize that Satan did not need to bow to Adam, because as soon as Satan exercised his will by disobeying god, he became at par with Adam or humans by definition. It is only free will (potential to elevate beyond angles) that puts humans above angles, otherwise angles are better than humans in all other aspects.

What humans will do with their free will it not important here. The only relevant issue is what they can do.

With love,
Sanjay

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Mickiel, your line of thinking and argument is absolutely right.

There is no eternal hell as people interpret it. It was said merely to create fear in the hearts of the people in order to keep those away from wrongdoings. It is as simple as that. Like many other things, it is also more a metaphor than the reality.

It is the same when a mother asks her innocent child not to go outside the dark night by showing him the fear of ghosts.

It does not mean that there were actual ghosts. Mother says this becsuse it works best with the innocent child. He is not yet wise enough to understand actual reasons and harms of going alone in the dark night.

Both of Christianity and Islam were meant to common people. These religions are not very intellectually orchestrated, and intentionally so, otherwise they will miss their targeted audience and lose their purpose. That is why we see more metaphors and folk language than intellectuality in these religions, in comparison to Buddhism or Vedanta.

With love,
Sanjay

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The problem is still how to judge those of us trapped in time with criterion of timelessness. If certain gnostics were correct, humans were created by a lesser God, hence the problems of time as opposed to timelessness and free will as opposed to determinism.
About angels and free will—Enoch seemed to think they had it, thereby producing a bastard race of nephalim (SIC) out of their desire for Earth women.
Perhaps we are a bastard race–half human, half divine.
In any event time cannot be judged by eternity.