I’m always surprised when some major international political shit is going down and nobody here is talking about it.
Do you guys not know about it? If not, why not?
Do you guys just not want to talk about it here? If not, why not?
In Ukraine, there have recently been lots of riots and protests and shit like that. From what I gather, it mostly has to do with the Ukraine president declining to be part of the EU (or to make a trade agreement with the EU, I’m not sure which).
There are a lot of opinions about the actions of the protesters (burning tires, throwing Molotov cocktails) and the reactions of the police and government (apparently some protesters have been horribly beaten/tortured/killed).
I’d like to see what the ILP crowd thinks of this situation. Would it be smart for Ukraine to join EU or stay with Russia? Is the president just a corrupt sock puppet for Russia? Are the protesters being overly violent or just doing what’s necessary to get their country on track to prosperity? Are the Ukrainian police evil and brutish, as some say, or actually are they being rather tolerant and mild as other say? Any other thoughts or additions you want to make? Any corrections about the political situation that I got wrong in my narrative?
Whatever impression the mainstream media has given… take its opposite to be closer to true.
And I don’t even have to know what you’re talking about for that to be true.
It is far better for the both of EU and Ukraine to stay away as neither of them are ready to be one right now.
The top political brass of the Ukraine is right in this context.
It is not necessary that the majority decision always use to be right.
On the contrary, the reality is just the opposite.
The most viewed subject on the internet is porn but that does not mean that it is most suitable too.
The people out on the streets in Kiev, and other Ukraine cities, are calling for a change of government. The present leaders are leaning towards the right and want to have closer ties to Russia. Any freedoms and liberalizations promised by joining Europe have been scrapped by the present government.
It looks pretty grim there at the moment. But the Ukrainians are traditionally a very tough and tight-knit society. The youth aswell as the elderly are staunchly proud to be Ukrainian and feel, rightly, that they must stand up to defend their country and independence from the Russian elements in the government.
There has always been a deep mistrust of the Russian intentions, probably stemming from the historical terrors between them.
A brief independence, at the end of Czarist rule, was stopped by Lenin reclaiming Soviet territories. There was a war between Russia and Ukraine, drought and famine followed and Ukraine was weakened badly. After Lenin, came Stalin. Stalin brought down terrible conditions on the Ukraine - enforced labor, death camps, starvation, slavery and the death of 7 millions.
Unfortunately the Ukrainian police, special forces and militia are being used by the government to eek out serious punishment on the demonstrators. The police there have no qualms whatsoever in using any strong-arm tactics, torture, beatings etc The demonstrators are quite well aware of this and are defending and fighting back.
There’s a few live feeds on the net that you can see what’s going on over there. I’m also getting the low down from many of the guys I work with - Ukrainians and Russians.
I hope some-one with powerful and sane views steps in to resolve the situation.
I think it’s the kind of thing that happens somewhere in the world on some scale or another every day. I don’t see anything particularly remarkable about this instance of it.
It may be just an ongoing process which started with glasnost then perestroika , then the Arab spring. It may have even started earlier than , that with the demise of the Berlin wall. The process of a new enlightenment.
Mr.Khatami in Davos, on the occasion of the meeting to determine the fate of Syria , said , referencing Hegel and Weber, " Democratic norms are not identical packaged goods, ready for export." The hidden meaning on political process is not entirely lost on those, trying to see the big picture. I think he made a credible, albeit mixed case for a kind of wait and see attitude prevalent among deluded well wishers.
The parallel between Kiev and Teheran may suggest a similar pattern. The share of Iran ruled a similarly autocratic regime for an extended period of time as that which communist Russia exercised over the Ukraine
It may be just an ongoing process which started with glasnost then perestroika , then the Arab spring. It may have even started earlier than , that with the demise of the Berlin wall. The process of a new enlightenment.
Mr.Khatami in Davos, on the occasion of the meeting to determine the fate of Syria , said , referencing Hegel and Weber, " Democratic norms are not identical packaged goods, ready for export." The hidden meaning on political process is not entirely lost on those, trying to see the big picture. I think he made a credible, albeit mixed case for a kind of wait and see attitude prevalent among deluded well wishers.
The parallel between Kiev and Teheran may suggest a similar pattern. The sha of Iran ruled a similarly autocratic regime for an extended period of time as that which communist Russia exercised over the Ukraine
I am not suggesting that Ukraine would be the slave of the Russia again. The interest of the Ukraine must be kept in mind in that relationship.
But, becoming a the part of EU is not a wise solution. It would eliminate any future possibility of the development of Ukraine and its people.
Ukraine should try to evolve on its own, with the help of other countries, but not surrendering to superior ones, like some small Asian countries like Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand etc did some decades back successfully and elevated themselves from undeveloped to developing countries. Once that is acheived, Ukraine can be a part of EU, but not before that.
Sanjay: would you go along with the notion that the street fighting in Kiev has reached a critical point? Demonstrators and police were successfully separated and violence averted, by the literal intercession of the coptic church. The coptic ministers placed themselves physically in the line of fire between the beligerents, hereby averting a possible bloodshed.
Ukraine's development is fairly well established in terms of what their internal capacity is. The EU market may enhance the development in a progressive, and not regressive way.
Is it without question that Russa has abandoned all designs on the Ukraine ?, or conversely,that she has ceased to play the virtual game theory surrounding possible politico-military process?
I would really be able to take a shot at this, but in all probability, the best case scenario has not even begun to be established.
Obe, i have a very serious doubt about that right now. And, that is precisely why i am against going With EU. If Ukraine were developed enough, these kinds of bloody confrotations would have not been there. That gives me the indication that perhaps the situation is not ripe enough right now.
When an undeveloped country opens its door for developed countries and MNC’s, they take control of natural and human resouces immediately. This shuts down doors for all indigenous future entrepreneurship forever and native people use to become noting but merely salaried slaves.
Thus, it is necessary for any country to built enough entrepreneurship skills within to fight the onslaught of MNC,s before opening up. That is my only cocern and suggestion.
But, i also give more value to your opinion about this issue than mine because i consider you more informed than me in this context.
Sanjay, : it is not at all certain that I am more informed about the events taking place in the Ukraine, and equally uncertain is my reliance on facts associated with the matters at hand relative to what their economic potential is.
I found in very general terms certain facts which stand out regarding the issues involved, and they are numerous to mention.
Among others, ukraine is the 4th largest exporter of certain agricultural products, She was the 2nd most important contributor of economic goods to the former Soviet Union, they have e been on an economic slide for the last few years, although their currency is stable . Structurally, the economy is still as repressed as in the soviet days, and recently, the number. Of small businesses has drastically declined.
Without theorizing about the polarity of opportunity between the EU and Russia, in consideration of whether it would be more progressive for the Ukraine to turn eastward toward her former trading partner, or toward the west, may given the above facts, be evaluated on the same general vein.
Repression may have played an important recurring theme in their economy, and the kind of repression exercised by the former USSR, was politically generated. In the scenario You are suggesting, there may be economic oppression by the EU's corporate activities, however, recently, and it may have been an effect of trying to counter these very possibilities, that the Ukraine passed the LAW of UKRAINE, which is a document drawn up to avoid monopolistic tendencies and other counterproductive acts exercised on the Ukraine's economy. There seems to be a series of checks and balances inherent in the document, to get the sense, the they are aware of repression upon their economy, internally, and otherwise.
If the above does mirror the concerns of their planners, the question still remains, would it be better to return to the Russian or EU markets?
Since political and economic consideration regarding the influence of repressive policies have not been distangled vis Russia, and not yet having been entangled in same with the EU, the following, ( and forgive me Sanjay for mentioning for the third time, that it is only in very general terms I can add any opinion to this) can be said.:
The EU mostly of democratic origin , process and objective, is more clearly seen as not having the kind of anomalies between economic and political factions, will be easier to deal with, on account of more specific avenues of communicating issues of trade.
Besides this, EU's markets are much more diverse, and may give rise to more challenging openings.
I am in pretty much the same boat, as You are, in forming this opinion on available opinion and data, and it is not certain as of yet, whether political considerations will or will not outweigh any possible economic gains.
What I’d like to see is our freedumb-loving press show us who we’re supporting and tell us why. I’m still amazed that in the age of the internet, so many people still believe what they are told to believe by the corporate media.
I’d like the press to question why the west is provoking and supporting Al Qaeda and Islamic fundamentalist groups to take out secular government in Libya, Iraq, Egypt and Syria. I like the press to explain why the west is once again supporting self declared fascists - this time in Ukraine? The U.S. administration has admitted they have spent $5 Billion on ‘promoting democracy’ in Ukraine over the years. ‘Promoting democracy’ is a euphemism for engineering a coup. Boris Berezovsky (a anti-Putin billionaire) was the centrepiece of a documentary that showed how this was done. Berezovsky was nearly wetting himself with excitement at how much fun he was having provoking people into violent uprisings. This is who your $5 Billion tax dollars went to.
FTR: I’m not an uncritical fan of Putin or Yanukovych (the corrupt Ukrainian leader who was ousted) but we need to see both sides and this is the side the west would prefer not to see.
This post is in French (use a translator) and the images of the murdered and burnt bodies inside the Union building are graphic.
In essence it seems to show that many of the victims may have been shot, beaten or strangled BEFORE the fire swept through the building. They suggest the fascists entered the building and slaughtered those inside THEN set the building alight to cover their tracks. It also questions why some bodies seem to have been moved and why others have their heads and hands burnt while the rest of their clothing remain intact. At last count, I heard 116 people (not confirmed) had been butchered and burnt.
There are other videos showing the fascists shooting at people trying to escape and mobs using batons and boots on those who jumped out of the windows. To their credit, some pro-Ukrainians tried to help but it was too little too late.
And now the EU has accepted their first open, fully-fledged neo-Nazis in both Germany and Greece yet Putin is called the new Hitler by Prince Philip because Putin opposed the continual expansionism of Nazis in the EU/NATO and the Ukrainian right wing. The EU has already tricked Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland and Romania away from Russia with offers of crippling debt to the World Bank but, once these countries default, the World Bank will confiscate their resources like they did in South America and elsewhere. Not a bad deal: I win or you lose.