Upon request’s of several theist on this site I am createing a thread which ask why it is they (For the most part 1 or 2 exception’s) who seam to be the only one’s debateing Illogical theories and how they: “Are impossible” Or “Cant be true”.
I ask you all…everyone, Why can’t they?..Be true or possible?
Before answering that ask yourself these 2 question’s.
Am I a logical person?
Do I believe in an Infinate Universe?
After doing so ask your self a third question:
Do I really understand what Logic actualy is, and what “Infinate Universe” actualy means?
Then finaly answer the first question.
Please post your answers and explanations for why you believe such…And if you are cappable examples and representations wether founded or not for each.
Remeber this is an experiament in thinking. so let no boundries bar you from what you might say.
My opinion is that the answer to your question is tied up in the definitions. An “illogical theory” is impossible by definition- the whole reason we come up with theories is to describe with language a part of the world that is mysterious to us, and logic is the universal language we use to do so- by it’s very definition, logic is there to ensure that the theories we come up with might pertain to the real world, and aren’t just strings of words.
Yes
A theory is just an Ideal of how somthing can be or is or why, Therefore in the REAL world as you put it has no use or effect until experimented with, But then, what is Religion but a theory? And can not be considered as logical or illogical until another Critiques it.
So while yes, you find my logic lacking. Other’s find My Illogic to be completely sencful and have more meaning then the logic by which you limit yourself and cling to.
Yes
Knowing the meaning of somthing is not Knowing what it is or how it is used and coinsides with the Belief sytem or reality one has or is a part of. There are many thing’s You as a theist believe which are completely Illogical, Yet when met with an illogical statement from another such, you would say the other is wrong for makeing it.
No, I dont know what impossible mean’s because I dont believe in such a thing…But than again Id have to know what it ment to “Not” beleive in it…And by knowing what it mean’s, by Logic it exist’s, therefore I “can’t” “Not” beleave in it. “If” I believe in everything, now can I? (yes that was a double negative) used corectly in a sentance…Some would consider that impossible…But clearly I just did it, so it is…Possible.
Is the above an Illogical or logical statement?..Or both?
You do not Understand How I think Uccisor or How I can reason the way I do.
I do not expect you to. I do, However expect you to realize that I do use it and know it, and that to me Illogic is the same as Logic.
I have another question for you:
You do not believe in an infinate Universe, Correct?
Then how can you believe in an Omnipotent being who suposeidly is the exact definition of Infinate. Especialy since to allow such a creation or being the Universe itself would have to be or be created infinate, If it wasnt than God could not exist…Period.
Where is your logic there?
would you say. I dont believe he’s Omnipotent? If he isnt than how is he a God worthy of worship, If he is not Omnipotent then clearly he is not the Creator of the Universe…and therfore a fraud. Only the creator of everything could be such.
But Logic says everything must have a begining doesnt it? Therfore God must have had a begining…But clearly God himself and Your belief states he doesn’t…
Instead he uses this to explain his Origins:
I am the beggining and the end, the Alpha and the Omega…Blah blah blah.
You know…That sound’s almost exactly like my definition of an Infinant Universe that you just said you didnt believe in…Uh oh…
I don't believe in God as infinite, I believe in Him as Ultimate. He has the Ultimate degree of power, knowledge, etc. Ultimate is neither infinite nor limited, for it is the most possible. Saying God is infinite is a good and proper sign of respect and worship, but in the way philosophers have taken to using the word, it cannot be[i] true.[/i] Because it is impossible.
You need a clearer understanding of Logic- even if you don't use it for yourself- if you want to criticize it's use in others. To say that God isn't worthy of worship if He isn't Omnipotent (in the particular way you define such) is just raw opinion on your part, it has no logical impact and presents no logical dilemma for me any more than your favorite flavor of ice-cream does. That God would need to be Omnipotent in the infinite-impossible sort of way in order to create the Universe is just something you made up- you've provided no reason to believe it, especially since, as I already said, I don't think the universe is infinite, either.
No, logic doesn't say 'everything must have had a beginning'. Logic is a system of rules, not assertions.
You leap to conclusions when people who are moderately well-read can instantly see that you don't know what you're talking about. Listen! I am an amateur, and I see right through you. I hope someday your current posts embarrass you, much as my first forays years ago embarrass me, and my current writings may do the same years from now.
Ultimate implies the most or best or superior, so to everything below it it may seam infinate. Would you agree?
Also seaming infinate and though it is the Ultimate, does that mean it is Not limited in it’s ability or power?
The best is not Unlimited or Infinate acording to you therfore it must be by logic limited…But wait you said it wasn’t that either which means it’s Unlimited or infinate…Right?
Do you “KNOW” God is Not Limited…Or Limited. Or is that just a theory?
And why would you say it is Impossible for God to be Infinate??? Last I checked one of the most important lessons taught in the Church and used in quotes on here and otherwise is:
God can do anything…Which mean’s…What? That he’s Infinate? Wait no, he’s the Ultimate…But wait that doesnt really answering anything does it?
Leave’s you wandering and Unsatisfied about what he truly is and is not capable of. Remeber as a theist your is or isnt black and white, Dont go all Illogical on me and start useing my Theories to explain God…Wait, that would explain him quite well as what he claims to be wouldnt it???
Ultimate is a beat around the bush word for you “Dont know”, Or rather dont want to take one side or the other becasuse if you do, Your wrong…acording to Logic.
However, if you were to take an illogical point of view…Youd be just fine.
It’s like the Athiest Ultimate question to the Christian:
Can God make a rock so big he cant lift it?
If he is the Ultimate…Sure he could make it and not be able to lift it…But that would mean he was limited would’nt it? Which would also mean…Hes not the God the Bible describes…But rather your own Personal God.
This also works with Infinate or anything else you throw at it.
It is the One sentance Faith smasher. And the only way around it is with Illogical thinking.
Oppinion on my part…hmmmm.
Let me ask you this:
Scientist’s find a specie’s in the botom of the ocean which is by far superior to man in every way with almost Godlike capabilities which apear to have no limit…
Is this being worthy of worship?
What make’s a being worthy of worship in the first place?
You seam to believe that because you think he is…Ultimate that means you need or feel the need or want to worship him…Why?
Omnipotance is the ONLY Logical reason to worship anything.Unless you are doing it for a Boon or grant of power or ability or money or whatever.
But in the since the name GOD applies and with it’s history. If this being is not Omnipotent…What Logical reason do you have for wanting to worship him?
Oh, and as far as me provideing no reason to believe the Infanite Universe…Actualy I have provided you with reason upon reason to believe it, Your just to Blind to see them…
It doesn’t…?? So your saying it is logical for me to say:
I never had a begining?
The Universe never had a begining?
You never had a begining?
Time never had a begining?
The Physical never had a begining?
No of course thats not logical, it’s only logical for somthing to not have a begining if it’s God were talking about…Silly me…
Oh and by the way, the only way the above works is if Like I believe we live in an Infinate Universe. Then it is entirely possible for God and everything else to never have had a begining.
Either way you go Uccisor, Your God doesnt exist without My Infinate Universe…That would make me more Ultimate than God wouldn’t it???
If my theories and the acceptance of them decided weather God existed or not…Think about that one.
Do I? Do they or can they? Funny because most of the people on here who are considered Non amatures seam to agree with me…For the most part.
Did you ever think that perhaps you are the one who is not useing Logic or actualy know what it is? because if you were you would see the contradiction’s in my word’s point to only Logical and rational thinking and the conclusion’s are the same.
Logic:
Comparing one stimulus to the other, and ultimately, evaluating each. Prioratizing. Judgment. Sense. Reason.
Infinite Universe:
“Infinite”, as a word, can have more than one meaning. Words such as “limitless” and “eternal”, are viable here.
“Universe” means “everything”, where as cosmos partains more to our material stars, planets, space, etc.
Only an equally infinite mind can fully understand an infinite universe. This would also, ultimately be, absolute universal self-awareness, because a mind is part of the universe.
Things like emotions, thoughts, words, etc. These are not the only kind of consciousness or knowing. And each of these little capacities have both limits and weaknesses. To transcend ignorance, on new levels, one must also transcend being “human”, in so far as conscious capacity is concerned.
Oh, I also wanna say, that the highest beings I know of, I don’t “worship”. We’re on a team, and we don’t fake shit. We aren’t even “polite” to eachother, because those are superficial, unnecessary affirmations/sacrifices which human-likes constantly stimulate eachother with, in order to ward-off memory loss, boredom, and also, affirm a sense of security by means of repetition/tradition/linear-consciousness.
Anyone, or anything, whom either says: “I am God”, or, “I am a God”, in English, has obviously set themselves up in a position of egomania. Such a statement is simply: “I am this”, and within a finite statement, one automatically limits one’s self, in that the self is in an eternal cycle of becoming, and no word can limit what it is, as it is still the universe, just like all else is still the universe.
There would be some debate on the moral perfection of some: God’s, specificaly the islamic and Christion one’s which claim to be but clearly arn’t
But Ok. That’s a good reason either way. I guess it really depend’s on your definition of Morality…
D0rkey d00d,
I think he is refering to the Christian or Islamic one, The one Ucci and I were debateing is the Chrsitian or catholic God, So I’m guessing he ment that one.
I know you don’t want discussion, you said, but you keep asking me questions.
Yes. In fact that God seems infinite to those lesser is probably how we started calling Him that in the first place. If a Being is All-Powerful, possessing the most power that anything can possibily have, such that it can do anything possible, that could be called 'infinite power' in a common-sense sort of way. It's only the very technical definition of infinite to which logic applies that is impossible.
Right, God is not limited in His power.
I'm not totally sure what you're trying to say here. If you're asking me if being logical is a limitation, then the answer is no. Logical is not a limitation or a category of things. You may as well say that existing is a limitation, because it excludes non-existing.
Well, I know He’s not infinite in the way you describe, because that’s impossible. Beyond that, I don’t have any certainty on His existence, so I can’t have certainty on his Ultimate…ness either.
Don't jerk me around, like I said, I see through it. You and I both know that you brought up the idea of the infinite to show that it was illogical- you were hoping a theist would step in and say that God is infinite, so you could show them how illogical it is. That's why, even now, you're trying so hard to argue for an infinite God/Universe/etc.
Yes, it is illogical, and that's why I say it's impossible for God to be such.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say to me here.
Again, you’re making stuff up. I’m quite comfortable with the notion of God as Ultimate- I started using the word myself without any prompting in this conversation, I prefer to call Him Omnipotent. But there’s enough skeptics out there that think this word necessarily implies infinity, that it’s been a problem before.
If you're arguing with my view, you must think it's illogical [i]now[/i]. If on the other hand, you think my view is perfectly logical, then there's nothing more to discuss. Besides, if I took an illogical view, I wouldn't be just fine, I'd be illogical- and hence wrong.
First, the God the Bible describes [i]is[/i] my personal God. Second, God can't make a rock so big He can't lift it as far as I know, because the compound object "A rock so big God can't lift it" is an incoherent, impossible object, and God can't do the impossible. Now, it *may* be that due to the nature of the Universe, God could make a rock that filled the whole universe, and then couldn't lift it because there would be no existant location left to 'lift' to. But then that becomes an empirical question about the composure of the universe, which has a definite answer depending on that composure, and not the purely logical puzzle the skeptic hopes it to be.
I got around it just fine, thank you, no illogic required.
I wouldn’t worship Cthulhu, no. I already have a God.
I choose to worship God because He created me, and I want the purpose of my life to be in line with the notions of my Creator.
Again, you don't know what logic is. You may as well have just told me that Chocolate is the ONLY logical favorite flavor of ice cream.
I didn’t say God wasn’t Omnipotent, I said He wasn’t infinite. If you define one as requiring the other, that’s your problem- and since you will admit that doing so isn’t necessarily logical, since you don’t bother with logical thinking, I have no reason to accept your definition.
You aren’t a guru, and we both know it. Save it for the hacks.
Of course it’s logical, and many people believe all of those things. I believe it to be incorrect, which means there must be some bit of illogic hiding in there somewhere, but that could be in the underlying assertions that back these claims up, not in the propositions as they stand.
[i]That[/i] would be the illogic, then. If you try to back believe that The Universe never had a beginning on some kind of [i]infinity[/i], now you have a logical error- and I suppose one could argue for a beginning to these things on the basis that to argue otherwise implies an existent infinity, which is nonsense.
Are you starting to see now that logic applies much better to particular arguments, and that a single sentence standing on it's own is rarely (but not never) illogical?
‘Most’ of the people here who are non-amatuers (there are very few, by the way) don’t talk to you.
How is an infinite God impossible? I can show how an Omnipotent God is impossible but I cant think of any argument against an infinite God, did I miss something here, you guys are acting like this has already been discussed and a consensus was reached?
Also how can you (Watcher) make any assertion as to anything being true or not true or illogical since you don’t believe in such? IOW, what is your agenda here, what are you trying to show, that everything is possible? I hope you still not stuck on that silly idea, I’m still waiting for you to destroy me BTW.
Actualy, I was Hopeing they would say that so I could prove they were right and that it was logical…Guess you dont see as much as you think you do.
By proveing them right in that asumption it also proves without a doubt that an Infinate Universe does exist, Only while we the non theist’s already know this, for the theist to understand you must relate it to their life and what they believe…in otherword’s you prove God is infinate, you also prove the Universe is such. As in Theory to the Theist…(Most of them) God “is” the Universe.
I think I stated before not to make any asumption’s on what I am trying to prove or disaprove Ucci…
Now from what I am seeing you admit that God IS in fact Infinate or Unlimited (Which are synonyms by the way) in some manner…
Oh and for the record at this point you have denied about 80% of the Doctrine taught to Christian’s and Catholic’s… You sure your a theist?
I know…That’s my point.
Um…Omnipotent DOES imply Infinaty by definition…Theres no skepticism about it.
The skeptic is the one who would question it’s meaning of infinity, not one who would try to prove it…That would make you the Skeptic…Not me.
Confused are we???
I’m still argueing with my view, just to clear thing’s up…
Why is Illogical wrong?..Because…Wait…Theres not a reason…Other than the Individuale doesn’t understand it or comprehend it, and therfore it MUST be wrong…
Right…You just agreed with evreything I said, or rather proved it correct…Thank’s.
I dont think you Understand the word Omnipotent or Infinant…Because that theory you just mentioned doesnt apply in an Infanant Universe as it is:
Actualy you attempted to hotstep around it, Which I then promptly grabed you and slamed you back into the ground…
Right…Cthulu huh??? Read a bit of the Occult do we?? Alester crowly perhaps…Maybe the Necronomicon…
Anyway, So God created you…You do realize that is an illogical Concept… Without proof to stand behind its just faith…Which relies on…Illogics to suport it.
Ok, now doesnt it make more logical sence to believe this god like…Cthulu…Created man then a being you have no proof of existing?
I mean…Man is on earth…This being was found on earth, is it not more logical to believe it’s claims of our creation than to hold onto…A faith which has absolutly no evidence or proof to support it?
…Well…It is…Chocolate, I mean…
Actualy you did say he wasnt, you said it was impossible actualy, then you said you prefer to call him Omnipotent but you didnt because of skeptic’s…
Let me post this again:
Omnipotent: om·nip·o·tent (ŏm-nĭp’ə-tənt)
adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite
Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.
Mathematics.
a. Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
b. Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.
c. Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.
There both synonyms, referance each other, and mean exactly the same thing, If God is Omnipotent, then he IS Infinate. Because they are one and the same
Dont play samantics with me, I have Google… and Im not afraid to use it.
(Spell checker scares the hell out of me though… )
No, your right, Im a δαιμων…
Why is it nonsence? Because…You disagree with it? That dosnt make it nonsence it just mean’s you lack the ability or want to Understand why it is or could be that way…
You need to start saying “what IF” more instead of:
It can’t, “Impossible”…“Thats Illogical”
You might actualy get soemwhere…
No, But I think your beginning to Understand how Illogical thinking work’s.
You should try it.
You aren’t a demon (modern Greek) or genius (old Greek) either. Despite what you may have heard, saying things in Greek does not make things more profound. You aren’t up to snuff, I have other ways to spend my Mondays.
Christianity.
and Im not afraid to use it.
)