very interesting bit about primary voting on trump

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
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There is an article on Redstate, (conservative website) about some
guy who did some analysis of GOP primary voting and he concluded that
well over half of Herr Trumpf votes were from Democrats who crossed over
to vote for him. Now before you get too excited, there was a lot of talk on
Liberal websites about going over and voting for Trumpf. I believe there
was not a groundswell of democratic voters going for Herr Trumpf, I believe
that they wanted to get the weakest candidate possible and they succeeded.
The GOP has been saddled with the weakest candidate in American history
because of the Democrats. You can thank the Democrats for getting
Herr Trumpf…Your welcome…

Kropotkin

2

So what are you saying? The democrats are so lame that they can’t win against a ‘real’ conservative candidate. They have to sabotage the GOP in order to have any chance of winning at all.

Is that it?

That’s sad.

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It would be interesting to have both in office?

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K: If you think about it, it is the GOP who is lame and weak. To win, the GOP has to
cheat (2000, 2004) lie (every time a GOP candidate speaks)
turn to voter suppression (in as many states as they can)
Gerrymandering (the entire south) A straight up election without these things
and the GOP never elects another politician nationally again. It becomes the regional
party it already is…

We simply followed the rules in voting for Herr Trumpf.
I know following the rules would never occur to you. You just
assume it flows from some deficiency when in fact, it is just playing by the rules
and getting favorable results. The GOP can’t play by the rules because if they do,
they won’t win another election in my lifetime. I have no fear of a straight up and
down vote in this country because democrats outnumber republicans and will do so
for a long, long time.

Kropotkin

5

It seems odd that all GOP candidates win because of cheating. What kind of dumb political system do you have?

I have no idea what your rules are because I don’t live in the USA. But the way that you described it sounded extremely dishonorable, to say the least. It’s certainly nothing to be openly proud of.

I mean, you say that the democrats intentionally promoted and supported a ‘despicable’ candidate. He would not have a forum for his opinions without their support.

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K: If you think about it, it is the GOP who is lame and weak. To win, the GOP has to
cheat (2000, 2004) lie (every time a GOP candidate speaks)
turn to voter suppression (in as many states as they can)
Gerrymandering (the entire south) A straight up election without these things
and the GOP never elects another politician nationally again. It becomes the regional
party it already is…
[/quote]
It seems odd that all GOP candidates win because of cheating. What kind of dumb political system do you have?

[quote]
We simply followed the rules in voting for Herr Trumpf.
I know following the rules would never occur to you. You just
assume it flows from some deficiency when in fact, it is just playing by the rules
and getting favorable results.

P: I have no idea what your rules are because I don’t live in the USA. But the way that you described it sounded extremely dishonorable, to say the least. It’s certainly nothing to be openly proud of.

K: have you ever played sports? I have, I have played since I was a small child and as
long as you abide by the rules, you can do what is necessary to win.

P: I mean, you say that the democrats intentionally promoted and supported a ‘despicable’ candidate. He would not have a forum for his opinions without their support.

K: We stayed within the rules whereas the GOP violates the rules quite often…
Trump paid off two separate state attorney generals to avoid them looking into
TRUMP University. That is the GOP way, bribe, steal, cheat and lie. The GOP motto.

Kropotkin

7

I think what you miss is that this is more than a game and that there are other factors here besides “winning a game”. If the Democrats intentionally did this, then they have given Trump exposure in the media over the duration of the campaign. Daily, national and international exposure.

What if he manages to turn a few million people to his POV?

What if he ends up being elected?

If the GOP is unethical, then that does not warrant unethical acts from the Democrats. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

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K: have you ever played sports? I have, I have played since I was a small child and as
long as you abide by the rules, you can do what is necessary to win.

P: I think what you miss is that this is more than a game and that there are other factors here besides “winning a game”. If the Democrats intentionally did this, then they have given Trump exposure in the media over the duration of the campaign. Daily, national and international exposure.

K: And every time he opens his mouth, more and more people run from him… in
a few months, he couldn’t get elected dog catcher and we have the end of Herr Trumpf.
We humans are game playing creatures, in fact, you could define humans as creatures who
play games…

P: What if he manages to turn a few million people to his POV?

K: he is not creating new views, he is simple stating out loud, racist views.

P: What if he ends up being elected?

K: as REM said, its the end of the world and I feel fine…

K: We stayed within the rules whereas the GOP violates the rules quite often…
Trump paid off two separate state attorney generals to avoid them looking into
TRUMP University. That is the GOP way, bribe, steal, cheat and lie. The GOP motto.

P:If the GOP is unethical, then that does not warrant unethical acts from the Democrats. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

K: and how does playing by the rules in place, make one “wrong” or unethical?
There was no cheating, no breaking of laws or rules, no money passed hands, no one lied…
So there is nothing “unethical” about what the dems did and it got us the results we
wanted.

Kropotkin

9

Barnum & Bailey for 2016!

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I already explained what I think is unethical about it … One more time :

They promoted a fringe candidate to center stage and gave him an opportunity to spread his racist views. He will be on TV and radio, in newspapers and magazines for months, instead of being ignored and quickly forgotten.

The Democrats claim to be against racism. Right?

If one is against racism, then one ought not help spread racist statements.

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The liberals in the media and DFL are gleeful about Trump because as K was getting at in this topic, Trump examples a core aspect of conservatives in the US GOP today: they are implicitly racist and extremist, they hate the government, they are swayed by cheap religious-like demagoguery and Hitler-like rants targeting certain minority groups and scapegoating those groups. Mentally and emotionally Trump is a child, that is quite clear to anyone with a functioning brain. It doesn’t matter if you like some of his ideas or if you hate the other side even more, it is undeniable that Trump is just a silly child.

So why wouldn’t the DFL be happy about that? Trump is giving a very bad name to conservatives and Republicans (as if they needed the help with making themselves look bad, which they already do plenty on their own). And to be frank about it, here in the US there is only one reason why Republicans are still winning congressional races and have any remote chance at the White House: gerrymandering districts. The GOP undertook an effort to seriously redraw congressional districts in 2010, and it worked. Despite that if you go by strict majority of total votes then Democrats win hands down across the country, you have districts split up along ideological fault lines and dissecting urban areas in just the right way to produce polarized districts that encourage more extreme candidates who appeal to the radical right GOP base voters. The GOP primaries are heavily influenced by this gerrymandering because you have many districts where there is no serious competition for those races, meaning that candidates simple become more extreme and unapologetic in appealing to the base voters who have been drawn together into these new districts: Trump is a phenomenon of the fact that primary races have now over-determined the GOP entirely and the most radical candidate will win out. It’s ironic because this district gerrymandering is what has allowed the GOP to retain control of congress, but now is biting them in the ass because it also has given them Trump.

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K: yes, he is racist and that is the point… I believe that with the “THE DONALD”
it has been made clear that the GOP is a racist party. All the coded words used to hide the
fact have gone by the wayside and we see full on and in clear daylight, racism at work.
The GOP spent years being racist to Obama but used coded words with a wink, wink,
but today’s GOP, nah, it isn’t that subtitle. Herr Trumpf hasn’t discovered racism, he
just made it public and out in the open. The US has a clear and open path to reject vile
and anti-human talk by rejecting, hopefully by the largest margin ever seen in a presidential
election. The US has a clear choice and who you vote for defines who you are…
Hillary has been under a microscope for over 20 years and nothing has ever
been found to discount her as a candidate even after 8 congressional hearings
about Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil and whitewater and all the other
bogus attempts to discredit her and bill. America has a clear choice between an
open and upfront racist and Hillary. It is clear, when she wins the GOP will
do to her what they did to Obama and obstruct, obstruct and obstruct some
more because the GOP has no idea’s, no plan, no principles. It is hard to have
principles when they are for sale to the highest bidder like the GOP has been
for the duration. The Cock brothers and Anderson in Nevada
has been buying influence from the GOP for quite a while. Need a factory built,
find a GOP congressmen to buy and viola, you have your factory.
The cynicism and anger in America is due to the fact that
our democracy has been bought and sold to the highest bidder,
it is no longer ours and we are angry about that and thus you have
rise of Herr Trumpf on the right and Sanders on the left.
The only difference between the right and the left is we picked
a sane candidate and one who is more than qualified for the job
and the right picked…perhaps the least qualified person
ever to be a major presidential candidate. Herr Trumpf has
exposed the right for what it is, a racist, up for sale party
that has no core principles and has not done a thing for America
in decades. I for one hope to piss on the grave of the GOP
when it finally dies the horrible death that Herr Trumpf will
bring it…

Kropotkin

13

Yes and the GOP beginning under Reagan and continuing through Bushie 1 and 2 has basically stripped the economic foundation away from the US economy through both the kinds of corruption you mention (including the financial crisis and now more recently the student loan crisis) and more importantly by destroying the progressive tax system that actually funds government, so that now the US government has no choice but to fund itself with huge deficits year after year, adding up to a massive national debt that is going to wipe out any economic gains we make in the next two decades. Social spending isn’t the problem, the problem is that we used to pay for that spending and we no longer do, thanks to radical right wing ideology about “gubment reachin its hands in my pockets” nonsense (which is ironic since taxes have only gone DOWN on the rich while taxes have gone UP on everyone else, poor and low-middle class GOP voters included).

14

Hilarious, in the light of what you wrote in the OP:

So more than half of his votes came from Democrats who manipulated the process as part of a cynical plan to get a weak opponent.

Now you call the GOP for selecting a racist candidate when in fact these Democrats played a key role in selecting a racist candidate.
:-k Is it possible that without their interference, the GOP would not have picked a racist candidate? Yeah, it’s very possible.

15

Taxes has gone down substantially on Business also.
Apple has over 75 billion dollars just sitting there in
offshore accounts and they are not alone. The list of
corporations that pay no taxes is long and impressive.
Exon and mobile just to name a few. billion dollar
corporations with billions in profits and they pay
no taxes. UMMM, wonder what is wrong with this picture?

Kropotkin

16

K: The GOP is a racist party…Doesn’t matter who you pick and now that racism
is out in the open, for all the world to see. To solve a problem, first of all, you have
to become aware of the problem and as long as the GOP used coded words and a wink,
to hide the problem, voters cannot know or understand what a racist party the GOP is,
but now, now voters cannot sit by and pretend the GOP isn’t racist, it is and to vote for
the GOP is to admit your racism. to vote for the GOP is to admit you have no core principles
because the only principles the GOP has is on sale… ( the two, racism and love of money
are not mutually exclusive) if you want to know what is wrong with people, look
to the GOP to discover how the GOP reaches for the lowest common denominator
to attract people… hate people and have no core principles, racist and sexist
and all those negative idea’s, come to the GOP, we have a spot for you… I prefer
to reach for our better angels and not our worst. I prefer to strive to make myself
better and not worse, I prefer to aim high and fail than aim low and succeed. Liberals
want to make America a better place, conservatives call that “hating America”
As in “why do liberals hate America so much”?

If there were such a being who could see into your heart and see
what you feel in your heart of hearts, I would have no fear
being examined in this way for my conscience is clear.
I want what is best for America and for not only Americans
but for all people of earth and in fact, all living things.
The path of progress is not technical, computers and the like,
but in our understanding of the universe.
Progress is to see humans in a new light, from
being connected as a family, then as a tribe, then
as a city and then as part of a state and then a nation/state.
Progress really means seeing human beings in larger and
larger context. From the one to the few to the many and
then finally to all… and then we see our selves in context
of life. That is true progress, how we see ourselves in the context
of the universe. Someday, soon I hope, we will see ourselves in context
of the planet and of the human race and as part of life. We are not there
yet, but soon…I object to the GOP and Herr Trumpf because they
harken back to old values and the old context whereas we need
to continue our progress into the post-modern values
of our understanding our place in the universe as we
realize our connection to other humans and then ultimately
to all life. The GOP and Herr Trumpf reaches to the past and I
reach to the future…

Kropotkin

17

Taxing business income is problematic because a business isn’t a person, and shouldn’t be treated as a person. Apple shouldn’t owe taxes, the owners of Apple should owe taxes. Corporate charters of personhood should be revoked and rewritten to state that the owners of the business also own directly any income from that business. Then you can simply tax the owners directly on their income, which would already include the business’s income.

Also when you tax the business directly usually the business just passes this on to consumers in the form of raising prices. Raising prices lowers economic activity and lowers consumer spending power (raising prices also decreases overall efficiency of allocation of capital), so raising marginal rates on business income (profit) taxes is really only draining money out of the larger economy and consumers via indirect route through the company that raised its prices to compensate.

This is why I want to abolish business charters of corporate personhood and stop taxing businesses as if they were people. If Apple has $75 billion in offshore accounts then that should be viewed as money directly owned by all respective owners of Apple, including any family owners and any shareholders. The money isn’t just “sitting there” in a void, and it isn’t “owned by Apple” because Apple isn’t an entity or being capable of owning anything; all businesses and their capital should be seen as being direct extensions as property of whoever the owners of those businesses are.

18

so the left is really a smoke screen then, thats already more than a century of leftist inaction, but taxes tend to increases for the populace when a so-called leftist is in the white house.

left vs right is just a gimmick.

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Peter, exxon pays dividends. You should buy shares and help our country’s biggest oil company maintain world dominance in sourcing petroleum. That’s good for America. Then instead of the government taxing them, taking a cut, and trickling a little down to you, you can just get the dividend check straight from them. Private companies can pay more than the government can in a lot of cases.

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