Virtue without religion

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

The question that has driven human beings since
the beginning of time, is simple, what is the point of
existence?

There are two ways for us to go about
discovering information… One path is to go
from the large to the small and other path, go
from the small to the large… There are technical names
for this, but I am not going to get into that…

Going from the large to the small, within
a meaning of life direction, leaves us with
problems… if we begin with god and heaven
and hell, what does that mean for us average
human beings?

It means we have already started with an avoidance of
responsibility and accountability… if god is in charge,
and he has a plan for all of us, where does that leave
us within terms of our own personal responsibility
and accountability? If god is the focus of the universe,
that leaves us being a means, not an end… we are
negated, devalued in a universe with a god, because
we are only there to be pawns in a game where
we are not in charge, not in control, and our only
value is bringing about god’s universe, not a human
universe… if we go from the large to the small,
we devalue human beings… for we are the small…

If there is such a thing as fate or destiny, then we
are just playing our roles, nothing more…
and the choices, the decisions are not in our hand…
and the actually defining of what it means to be human
lies within the choices we have and that we can make…
having a fate or a destiny removes those choices…having
a god removes those choices… the big isms of
our current existence, capitalism, communism,
Catholicism (which is a stand in for all religions)
are all isms where the individual, the one, has no
real choices… in communism, the one is supposed
to serve the state… live and die in support of that state…
and capitalism serves the same function economically,
we live and die in support of the pursuit of profits…
the primary goal is profits/money, not our own individual
choices or goals… we live in terms of providing others
with something… god with being pawns, capitalism with
our lifetime creating profits, which we get very, very little
of…

No, I propose we begin with the small and work our way up…
and these are the things I know to be true…

One: that all life, which includes human beings, have
basic needs that must be fulfilled if that living thing
is to continue existence… we must have food, water,
air, shelter, and in the human case, we also need
health care, education… being a human being is far
more complicated than being a dog or a cow…
and thus, we need many more years of education to
become successful human beings…

and we as human beings also have psychological needs…
that of safety/security, to be esteemed, to have a sense
of belonging, and of course, love… which is also
a physical need… human beings also need a sense
of connection to each other… that is a primary need
of human beings… to connect with another human is
so primary that human beings without that connection
have psychological problems… we are alienated,
isolated, and apart from other human beings…
Part of the reason that Europe is a much better place
to live is that they truly believe in connecting
people to each other… whereas in America,
isolation and alienation is common…
to be an American is to be isolated, set apart
from others by our economic system of capitalism
and the current drive to fascism and dictatorship…
and that is the point of a dictatorship… to isolate,
to set people apart, to disconnect people from each other
for the sole reason of power for the dictator and the state…

One of the basic beginning steps of a dictatorship is
to limit the ability of people to connect by taking away
the right to meet, to connect, no political parties,
all assemblies that are not directly in favor of
the political dictatorship, is banned… to disconnect
us from each other… looking at protest in
other countries, one of the first acts of the dictatorship
is to ban social media… the ability to connect with each
other… that is why dictatorship 101 is to end the
ability of people to connect, via assemblies and social
media… and that is why the right/MAGA is so anti-social
media…

but another small aspect of the human existence is
by being social creatures, that we can only function
and survive in a social context… we must have
a state and a society, a civilization is a mandatory
aspect of being human… the ancient Greeks understood
this… the highest aspect of being human was within
the state… Pericles himself mentions this…
for the Athenians, to be human meant to be part
of the state…it is another means of connecting to
other human beings…

Given the above, this explains why Hobbes
‘‘State of Nature’’ is against human nature…
For in a ‘‘State of Nature’’ there is no connection
to our fellow human beings… this viewpoint,
brings us to another point… that the belief that
less government is the best government is
a fundamental failure to understand what it
means to be human…

We find our best selves, in regard to the state
and the society, not apart or separate, but within
and as part of the state/society…

These fundamental aspects of being human brings us
to a better understanding of what it means to be human…
that we must be social connect to other human beings,
and if we are not, if we cannot physically, psychologically,
emotionally connect to others, we will suffer psychological
and emotional issues…

or said another way, the modern state attempt to
atomize human beings, to separate them from
each other, damages people… we see this on
a daily basis with millions of people with
emotional and psychological issues… and the rise
of drugs, alcohol, and other vices such as the
addiction to money, brings us to realizing that
if you want to end these psychological issues,
we have to bring people together, not separate them…
and within a ‘‘State of Nature’’’ we isolate, separate
people from each other…and within capitalism,
we isolate and separate people from each other
with a ‘‘Zero Sum’’ vision of who humans are…
competition doesn’t bring about connections, but
cooperation does… we connect every time we
cooperate, and therein lies the value of cooperation…
competition divides, cooperation connects…

and what is the bottom line here?
that the right/MAGA values are the wrong values
for us individually and collectively… for it separates us,
divides us, alienates us from each other…
a ‘‘Zero Sum’’ game only helps those already at
the top, it does nothing for the vast majority of
human beings…

so, where does this leave us?
that we must connect, socially, politically,
economically, philosophically… values that
separate us, divide us, must be rejected…
and what does that say about us in terms
of theology?

That theology, religions are about ‘‘Us vs Them’’… and that
is, in part, what divides us… that we are moral, virtuous
only because of our want/desire to get to heaven…
does virtue itself have any value? I believe it does…
we can be virtuous without, WITHOUT any need to
be rewarded by heaven…

and Kropotkin, how does that work?

Next post…

Kropotkin

2

So how does virtue work without religion?

it comes back to our understanding of what it means
to be human… we require a state/society/civilization
for us to complete our journey to become human…
and why is this? Because we are social creatures,
we can only connect within a social, political context…

We cannot connect within the Hobbesian ‘‘State of Nature’’
there cannot be a connection if we are at war with each other…
how do we connect if we are in competition with each other
for resources that each of us needs to survive…
a society/state can only exist if, if we cooperate
and connect to each other… the ‘‘State of Nature’’
that conservatives hold to be true, that we are in
competition with each other for resources, that
means we are unable to connect with each other…
competition prevents us from connecting to each other…

This is a powerful clue as to the nature of our state
and society… we must connect to be able to be human,
and so, the state we have, must allow us this connection…
if we cooperate and not compete with each other…
we can better connect with each other…
and with this in mind, we can now see why
we must reject capitalism as is, and why we
must also reject Hobbes ‘‘State of Nature’’
the closer we get to Hobbes ‘‘State of Nature’’
is the closer we come to becoming fractured
and alienated from each other…

And if we accept, as we must as American’s, the
declaration of Independence, then we also must
accept without reservations, the very idea behind
the declaration…

‘‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men/human beings
are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with
certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness’’

and the declaration, as it makes itself clear, that
we are better off together, as one state, with one
set of rules, within a culture and civilization…
because we are human beings and the basic
need of human beings is to connect with each other…
and that is best done within the state/society…
so, the conservative is flat out wrong…
that we are better as human beings within
the state or society cannot be denied…

So, what about virtue?

that virtue helps us bring about a better state/civilization…
for part of our connecting is through our behavior to each other…
if we are violent or practice ‘‘Zero Sum’’ games, we disconnect
from each other… violence disconnects us from each other,
as does the vices of existence… the trinkets of existence
as I have called them…the pursuit of money, of the pursuit
of fame, power, titles, or material goods, disconnects us
from each other… for that play into the ‘‘Zero Sum’’
games that disconnects us from each other…
the connection necessary for us to survive comes
from us engaging with ‘‘WOKE’’ values… to treat
others with dignity, value, tolerance, is to connect
with others… to mistreat others with MAGA values,
is to disconnect from others, to stand for the ‘‘State of Nature’’
instead of standing with people cooperating and connecting…

By acting with virtue, is to strengthen the state and society…
for the point of the state/society is to connect with others,
as that is one of the major goals of being human…
to be virtuous, is to help connect with others…
I am nicer and play nice with others who treat me
better than those who do not… that is a basic
human reaction… you want a better, safer society/state,
treat people, all people with the values of being virtuous,
for those are the values that connect us, not divide us…

if you say, me first or America first, that is to disconnect
us from each other…and the only way we can strengthen
the state and the society, is by our connecting with each other…
there is no other way for the state/society to survive…

So, do we need a theological reason to be virtuous?
to gain heaven? NO, the reason to be virtuous is
to better connect with others and by that connection,
we make the state/society stronger… it is by
everyone being virtuous, we can make a better
state/society… and what does being virtuous mean?

for us to be MAGA, is to disconnect us from each other…
and if we disconnect enough, we will enter the ‘‘State
of Nature’’ that Hobbes has described…
the path to a better, safer country, is by practicing
virtue… which is to say, we can connect better,
as a people and within the state by practicing
virtuous values like love, hope, charity, compassion,
tolerance, dignity… and practicing the
values of MAGA disconnects us, divides us…

MAGA values like hate, anger, lust, greed, bigotry, prejudice,
intolerance, those values divide us, disconnect us, separate us…
it makes living within a state/society much harder…

the conservatives often complain that we are not a
‘‘civil’’ society or that we are a society/state in crisis…
I hold that is because of MAGA values that engage
in the negative values that disconnect us, divide us…
you want a better society/state, the beginning of that
path is to be virtuous by practicing ‘‘WOKE’’ values…

by practicing values that bring us together, not divide us…
as the Declaration itself says, ‘‘That all men are created equal’’
and in accepting that, we begin to treat all people, all human
beings as equal, with equal rights, with equal respect
and equal value… for that increases our connections
and with an increased connection with each other,
we create a stronger, better state/society…

for that is what practicing virtue means…
it increases our connections to/with each other…
and at no point do we need to engage with theology
to help us practice virtue… the very practice of virtue,
of treating people with value and respect will improve
and help us connect with each other… and in doing
so, we help and improve the state/society…

Kropotkin

3

and I ask those who believe…
would you still believe if there were no
heaven or hell to go to? is the belief in god
enough to get you to believe in god?
without any promises or threats, would you
still believe? Is that why you practice virtue?
not because you believe, but because it’s the right
thing to do because people have value, regardless
if they believe or not… part of the current problem with
values is that they are connected to religion and
religion only works with threats and promises…
do you only believe because of the threats/promises?
is that why you are virtuous? not to connect people
to each other or to strengthen the state/society,
but to gain enough favor to go to heaven?
such a selfish purpose to act… only to get one
to heaven… and screw everyone else…
The state/society needs you to care more about
people than your desire to get to heaven for
our state/society will become a far better place if
you cared about the state/society more than you care about
getting to heaven…

Kropotkin

4

Marx said religion is the opium of the masses.

In the modern day, videogames and movies are the opium of the masses. Videogames and movies are the new religion.

There are some on here, who want to go back to the old ways, who think that society needs religion (old skool religion), believing that the lack of religion has caused the decline of Great Britain.

The decline of Great Britain has many factors, one large reason are the tyrannical politicians and excessive rules.

There are several problems with atheism as a societal thing. Religious people’s power is the power of Congregation, and political power. Once a week religious people are united with likeminded individuals and peers with the power of Congregation and are then united in comradery in politics.

What do atheists have? Atheists are lone-wolfs. Maybe they have some co-workers, or friends or something. Most of their family will probably be religious and not similar to them at all. There is no church or temple of atheism. Its difficult to find any atheist charities. If you look at Japan which is not religious at all they are the least charitable people on earth.

If there was an atheist church, it would probably be full of a bunch of snobs, arguing with each other about politics or science. There is no unifying pacifying doctrine such as “love thy neighbor”. Atheism doesn’t have a doctrine. Atheism doesn’t cause Congregational fellowship and harmony.

5

The purpose of existence, if there actually is one, is to live as best we can before we croak. Any further purpose are the ones we imagine there being a multitude of those. In any attempted definition of purpose, improvised labels, constantly in use, amount to nothing.

6

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Would an atheist doctrine be more like ‘every man for himself’?

Catholic communities are much more cohesive/harmonious/caring than our irreligious atheist counterparts.. because we think before we do/say/act.

7

Atheists are a new social phenomenon.

In the past you had psuedo-atheist pagans, like Greeks and such. Spartans did not have an egalitarian society and 85% of their society was slaves. Then you had Athenians who had a psuedo-egalitarian society, but they acted like Americans where they had to wage wars and bully other countries.

Full atheism is a new phenomenon in history, unless you count pseudo-atheist pagans as atheists. There has not been enough time for natural selection to take place for all the atheist nihilists to go extinct yet, naturally more egalitarian and moral atheists will replace amoral atheists. However the atheist population is so small that the amoral atheists are actually a danger to all atheists.

8

I recently watched the new Frankenstein movie and have never really indulged in more academic forms of philosophy so this may just be nonsense, but I wrote something that I wanted to put somewhere

perhaps I should rather find myself a poetry forum

Do we supercede god thé second we learn to forgive him? If in death I do indeed greet his hands with mine, and carry warmth when doing so, am I then no longer lesser or equal?

If in the same place as he is but with a power to understand death, punishment, and murder and still forgive their enabler

Do you die again with every second you give your grace to those, and to god, who do not deserve it (heaven becoming a place in the act of doing better with your want and will)

If power is in the control and god controls us all in some way (creation of war, hate, lifestyle, politics, freedom from guilt) is forgiveness superiority?

Forgiveness being the thing that takes power away from control in the way it ceases to effect the desired affected

What stops us from understanding that, just like humans, perhaps god just plays god, and it is in our faith and forgiveness in those around us to do better, treat better, and stop playing god, our trust, that is really holding us together.

What if our faith in the common god which is humanity is what we are actually relying on

When we realise this and responsibility shifts, will we let god surpass us into nothingness, and collectively lead with our human hearts, which for all meaning and importance, entirely human

In summary: is god a label meaning all of us but directed at none of us and how does that impact our moral standards and treatment of eachother. What happens when we accept we are all god in our responsibility and ability

Sorry if this is stupid