I was thinking about pre-philosophical society, and it’s lack of questioning (unlike others, I don’t believe myth to be simply a quick answer to questions, being more of a Jungian). What was it, socially and culturally, that stimulated philosophical investigation - particularly in places such as Greece and China? Was it politics, or mathematics, writing, a blend of all of these, or something totally different? What instigated this notable psychological shift?
I suspect I’ve worded the question badly, but I guess that allows for multiple interpretations, and I’m interested in all replies.
EDIT: Let me put it another way just to make things easier for myself. Imagine that there was a shift from the holistic, intuitive, mechanical mode of the right-brain, to the analytical, rational mode of the left-brain. What cultural and social factors could be responsible for this, particularly in ancient Greece? I’m hoping that there are some people with a greater knowledge of social history who might be able to give me some ideas.
I believe that the dramatic shift was brought about by brief moments in time where survival became less daunting for our specie as animals. For God-knows how many millenniums, we have been spending all of our time just surviving. Then, with the advent of civilization, the requirements for survival became less and less to particular cultures (namely Greece and China). Boredom became alive. The arts were born.
You have Rumi in your signature, yet you don’t mention Persian philosophy? Ferdosi/Hafez? Oh no!
I’d be very interested in seeing many replies to this question since I’ve asked it before with little success. I would assume it would ultimately involve metaphysics and probably results from seeing a purpose in everything, but ourselves. I remember, for example, in religious studies we’d always be told that i.e. we should thank god for providing water otherwise we wouldn’t be alive. We have thereby specified a purpose for the water, but not one for ourselves. We would appear to be the ultimate purpose. But naturally that doesn’t stick, so I think that could be one place where and why philosophy comes into play, to justify, speculate, try to understand, and I think ultimately advise on life from an extra-instinctive perspective.
I’m fully aware that that’s a book by Julian Jaynes. I plan to read that at some point, I just haven’t gotten around to it yet. Would it be particularly helpful for me to get it right away?
Unreasonable: If ‘free time’ and ‘boredom’ were the answer, then philosophy would also have appeared in more primitive cultures, seeing as how many tribes often have masses of spare time where they aren’t hunting and such like.
Wonderer: Thanks for nothing.
Rouzbeh: I’m not quite sure how exactly your answer applies to my question. I didn’t mention persian philosophy because it comes much later, and so is not one of the first appearances of philosophy, and is inevitably influenced by prior philosophy (equally, I’m not particularly familiar with Persian philosophy, despite quoting Rumi). I know what philosophy is, what I’m trying to get at is what specific cultural factors might have instigated it. Perhaps in Ancient Greece we could posit the master/slave system, or the democratic political structure, as influences - for example.
You’ll probably find that book really interesting considering the question you’re asking here, earlier you were mentioning right brain left brain ideas and the book does talk about these things, how the right was dominate then the left began to establish some kind of equilibrium etcetera etcetera, it’s been awhile since I’ve read it but yeah I definitely recommend you read it. Asap.
But before Ancient Greece you had cultures such as the Egyptians and the Babylonians with their religions and astrology etc. where do you draw the line between what is and is not philosophy? What is it you’re looking for?
This is true. I’m really referring to what we might call ‘analytical philosophy’ or ‘scientific philosophy’, where reasoning is present. Prior to this, the philosophical ideas found in religion are based on myth and associated insight, and is not logically justified (as far as I’m aware) because, it seems to me, they didn’t feel the need to justify it, feeling that it was the truth (then again, perhaps I am wildly off, seeing as how the Egyptians had a rather deep concept of the make-up of the human soul).
Philosophy seems to appear properly in what Karl Jaspers dubbed the ‘Axial Age’ between 800bc and 200bc. This is when we get the Ancient Greeks, Confucius and the many other schools of Chinese philosophy, Buddhist philosophy, the mystical philosophy of the Upanishads, etc. I’m probably being rather vague because it is rather vague in my mind, which is why I posed it as a ‘supposing this were the case’ question.
It’s interesting you ask this because I was reading the first chapter of Bertrand Russell’s History of Western Philosophy last night. Unsurprisingly, he takes “Greek civilization” as his starting point, but the first chapter discusses the origins of Greek civilization in the preceding Egyptian and Babylonian communities mentioned by RebEp - he attributes great importance in this respect to the development of alphabetic script from pictorial (Egyptian) and cuneiform (Babylonian) variants, but he doesn’t really explain, from what I can tell, why this is so significant other than as a tool for communication (and, I would extrapolate, for the recording of ideas). Perhaps there is something here about the attempt to fix meaning (in an abstract manner) and a concurrent shift from an imaginative to a rational idiom, probably not dissimilar to Jaynes’ bicameral theory - much of the chapter is dedicated to a discussion of Greek religious practices and, to pick up also on the suggestion made by Unreasonable, the sense is that “primitive” religion was a largely tribal, pastoral pursuit, whereas the more “civilized” Greek religious practices, especially those most obviously associated with the Homeric accounts, tended to be the preserve of the aristocratic, mercantile classes (there is also an interesting aside about how some of the earliest philosophers, such as Xenophanes, were wandering “refugees”). It may be that we can take from this that, for Russell at least, philosophy can be distinguished from religion as a more “personal” outlook that arose in the minds of the Greek aristocracy, but it would certainly need more extensive elaboration, particularly as to why an earlier development failed to take hold of similar social groups within earlier and contemporary “civilizations” such as the Egyptian and Babylonian (not to mention the Hittite, Persian and Minoan - although it is briefly mentioned that it may indeed have been the case in India).
Yes, that’s certainly the best line of reasoning I could come up with, and I suppose the development from pictorial to cuneiform to alphabetic scripts would support that thesis.
rainshine87,
I’ll throw my two cents in. Keep in mind I’m not fully sure what I’m talking about. I’m just piecing together some things I learned in my ancient greek philosophy class.
Prose became popular only after people became literate. Using prose became a symbol of philosophical optimism. Before prose, literal art was communicated in verse, because it was easily remembered and communicated. The first philosophers, the Milesians, if they can even be called that, anaximander, anaximenes, hecataeus, wrote in prose to 1. break in religious tradition which was always accompanied with the the opening lines of verse calling upon the muses for inspiration, and 2. use philosophical optimism (the idea that man is capable of acquiring knowledge all on his lonesome, without the aid of gods.) As people (read: elites, nobles) became literate, they picked up on this break from tradition; this idea that knowledge was out there for anyone to pick up, and started writing their thoughts down to be read, learned, and criticized by anyone, mostly in prose. Some verse continued, but by the time of Plato most philosophical inquiry was written out in prose.
Through prose people could write down for next generations complex strings of thought, which could then be dissected and improved. This isn’t to say that it can’t be done in verse. It’s just that verse at that time was associated with religious writing; not something intellectual.
Ah I misunderstood, you’re looking for a social history of philosophy; my response was just to say, as I understood the question, that I think philosophy comes from a search for purpose (i.e. why be “good”, what is “good”). One would probably see a man who is well provided for with little effort on his part for but ultimately discontent do more philosophy than a mother who has recently given birth. I suppose you could then make the connection however, that once society surpassed a level of efficiency, whether through industry efficiency or the use of slaves, philosophy bloomed in the same way as above. Lack of purpose. It might be that I’m just stating the obvious, and I don’t know that I’m any closer to answering the question at all, since the above responses make me believe that I’m not, but, might as well verbalize!
Well Rouzbeh, that may have played a part, but Unreasonable has already proposed this idea, and I pointed out that there are plenty of ‘primitive’ societies with time on their hands which never developed philosophy proper. Therefore the answer can’t be that simple. I’m grateful for your input though.
Yes, they are included in the answer, but not definitively. There is much more to it.
Philosophy was developed as part of a need. It wasn’t simply playing checkers or tic-tac-toe; it was much more essential. I’d attribute it almost entirely to the Art of War (which conceptually precedes the term “Philosophy” as we know it). We, Westerners, and Easterners, picked up Philosophy from ancient wise-men, namely from Greece and China, as been mentioned already.
Yes, that is true, but you are preceding the concept of ‘philosophy’. What was it before being called “philosophy”???
There were (and still are) shaman, mystics, wise-men in tribal societies. Can’t they be called “philosophers” as well?
The paradigm shift occurs in human history, because of how powerful the ideologies of Greece and China were/are to this day…
That depends on how you define: proper, doesn’t it?