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[b]And if those like you and Bob and Ierrellus ever have the balls to discard your comforting and consoling spiritual contraptions and accept what human existence almost certainly is — essentially meaningless and absurd on its a trek to oblivion – you might actually comprehend Paul’s points here.
You know, before he blinked.
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It is interesting that you regard our positions as not having “the balls” to discard “spiritual contraptions”, and presumably you do?
The fact that Paul Simon wrote and sang these songs is witness to his own “spiritual contraptions”, which are no doubt different to mine, but he has always spoken to my soul. It is this “continuing to continue” that we are all caught up in, and we move along the path of time, curious as to where it will end. Of course, we can suddenly become fearful about where it ends, or become perturbed about how it is going, but like Paul Simon, we “continue to continue”, and his songs and our “spiritual contraptions” are our means to express what we observe.
Sounds like only Iambiguous can comprehend the real Paul Simon. Is that what he means by objectivism? A pissing contest?
That’s just me “in a mood”. Me in polemicist mode. Me being deliberately provocative in order to draw out something – anything at all – from those who actually are able to comfort and console themselves with God and religion.
And, yeah, it takes me back to how tough it was for me all those years ago to jettison God, then ideology, then objectivism altogether.
Obviously, I can’t really know what goes on inside your head regarding these things. But a part of me does believe that those who still believe in God – in this day and age! – do so because they can’t bring themselves to imagine the “for all practical purposes” implications of living in a world without God.
It jolted me then so why not you now?
Especially considering the fact that, in my view, you basically run from the arguments I’ve made here and elsewhere rather then tackle the points in depth.
Like the points I raise here: ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=197537
And especially all things theodicy.
Let’s face it, all you really have here is either Kushner’s God or “God works in mysterious ways”. In other words, who the hell really knows why he created, among so many other afflictions, the Bubonic Plague and AIDS and covid-19.
Then, in my hopelessly subjective opinion rooted in dasein, straight back up into the spiritual stratosphere you go:
Your soul? How on earth is that not just something you managed to think yourself into believing does in fact exist. Or maybe you were indoctrinated as a child to swallow it hook, line and sinker.
But, I suspect, you couldn’t actually demonstrate its existence if your life depended on it. Just another existential leap of faith.
Anyway, google paul simon and religion and you don’t get much in the way of anything substantial. And what’s there is nearly a decade old. Like this: christianitytoday.com/ct/20 … ary09.html
I always take my own rendition of him “blinking” back to the song Duncan:
[b]A young girl in a parking lot
Was preaching to a crowd
Singing sacred songs and reading from the Bible
Well, I told her I was lost
And she told me all about the Pentecost
And I seen that girl as the road to my survival
Just later on the very same night
When I crept to her tent with a flashlight
And my long years of innocence ended
Well, she took me to the woods
Saying here comes something and it feels so good
And just like a dog I was befriended
I was befriended
Oh, oh, what a night, oh what a garden of delight
Even now that sweet memory lingers
I was playing my guitar
Lying underneath the stars
Just thanking the Lord for my fingers[/b]
You have your lyrics, I have mine.
The strange thing that I find with your protest is that you project your idea of “comfort and consolation” onto us and don’t listen to what we say. Also, your problem with “objectivism” - a tendency to lay stress on the objective or external elements of cognition, or the tendency, as of a writer, to deal with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, doesn’t seem to fit us. Especially in this thread, we are talking about thoughts and feelings that are inspired by experiences that are perhaps not always part of the treadmill we are put on, but always return and provoke a reaction in us.
The fact that we can experience such things, our sentient perception of the world and our own existence, our potential for working with nature, interacting with a world that on the surface seems to challenge us, but underneath has the potential to bring out a quality in us that sets us apart from all other forms of life, is something that awes me. When we look back millions of years, no thousands of millions, who could have imagined that sentient life would emerge? The fact that the ancients also saw this and developed stories to circumscribe their perception is also awe-inspiring.
Yes, there are many questions for which I have no answer, but I know from experience, that the problem of evil is something that arises from human psychotic disturbances, out of disturbed minds, who fail to see their potential without supressing the potential of others. Yes, that is a problem, and yes, the world is obviously not perfect if that is around, but I don’t feel compelled to throw out all other evidence because it isn’t only perfect. That is another challenge that can awaken the best in us, even if you get the feeling that it is overcoming us at present. The problem then, is to want a perfect world, and being unable to accept the way it is.
Perhaps the problem is that this thread, and much of the ancient religious scriptures, have a somewhat romantic take on reality, depending of course on what you understand under “romantic”. There are vast differences between us today and them two or three thousand years ago, and we have to take that into account, but our experience of life and death, if it isn’t just reduced to the experiences in combat, awakens a sensibility in us that can be inspiring and jog a reaction that is extremely pleasant. It is only if you can proverbially “look up” and away from the grime that you can experience this. There are times when we land in the gutter, but we are able, if we pull together, to get back out. It’s on us, collectively. That is why we have to hold out our hands to others and seek a constructive way ahead, inspired by the wisdom of the ages.
Iambiguous,
Who are you to tell me my fondest insights are meaningless? Because they are not yours does not make them mere mental contraptions. One could equally say that your nihilism does nothing to contribute to better people or a better world; that it is a negative mindset of hopelessness. If it makes you happy, though, go for it. Just don’t spread your disease. I’ve had enough negative experiences in my life. A good friend just died. Your words do not comfort.
I told you bruh… Biggs is an evil Socrates whom by plunging everyone into doubt and despair, actually causes them to become more compassionate and sympathetic toward each other… a result of losing their bearings and all the prejudices and convictions that come with that.
He’s really quite the sage that Biggs, and we love to watch him work.
Really? Do you write songs?
Where the fuck is Mrs. Robinson? That’s what I wanna know. Is she with Joe DiMaggio?
If Satan existed he would use the same tactics and have the same goals. Negativity does not engender compassion and sympathy. If you look at your hero carefully, you’ll see that the majority of posts in his monster thread consist in him flaming himself, which amounts to mental masturbation.
Exactly!?! And we must decide now–once and for all. Up or down? Wait… What?
I’m sorry you lost a friend. My brother and his wife anti-vaxxers both, contracted covid-19. She died. He survived. The tribulation has arrived. And not just for him.
Reading McGilchrist, I find an association with inspiration in our tendency to imitate people who we admire. In many ways, young people find it uncool to admire them, so they just copy people. We have surely experienced the difference, especially in working arrangements.
Sorry to hear about the death of your sister-in-law. Yes, the tribulation is here. My friend was only 63. His family did not mention covid. They said he went out dancing one night and his heart stopped the next day. He died doing what he wanted to do,
Come on, Bob, your religious beliefs either do bring you some measure of comfort and consolation or they don’t. They certainly brought me a ton of it back in the day. And, given that you would seem to be no less able to demonstrate [even to yourself] that in fact this Christian God of yours does exist, it’s that leap of faith itself that allows you to feel comforted and consoled.
Now, what can you tell me that changes that? Make it all about me if you must but, in my view, that doesn’t make my arguments go away.
Yes, another “general description spiritual assessment” of your faith. And, sure, what can I possibly know about your experiences? But, again, with so much at stake on both sides of the grave, what on earth is a God/the God thinking? Why can’t He make it entirely more explicit which path mere mortals had best be on? Instead, He sits up there somewhere observing Christians, Jews and Muslims down through the ages persecuting and/or slaughtering each other in His name!!!
But forget about addressing this in depth. instead, in my view, It’s back up you go:
Okay, but take this up with others here, Bob. That’s not my main interest in God and religion. What inspires me here are discussions that address the manner in which others connect the dots existentially between morality here and now and immortality there and then. Felix noted the inspiration that seems to fuel Paul Simon to reject nihilism in favor of these days of “miracle and wonder”. I then noted the Paul Simon I first encountered. Then “in a mood” speculated on what might inspire some here to reject nihilism…because it makes people feel bad.
Again, leave out the part where humans are implicated in history’s barbarities. What then of earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanic eruptions and hurricanes and tornadoes, and deadly viruses and diseases, and countless medical afflictions, and things that fall from the sky bringing about the occasional “mass extinction” event?
And again, the irony here: it is precisely those Christians, Jews and Muslims who insist on perfection – their path to God – that, historically, evil revolves around.
But you digress…
Note to felix, Ierrellus and others:
I’ll ask you to go there with him.
I’m not telling anyone here what their insights are. I’m noting that distinction between insights that some root in God and others root in No God. And then the extent to which they are able to demonstrate how their insights reflect that which all rational men and women are – deontologically? – obligated to share.
If someone claims that their beliefs about God pertaining to my own interest in religion – morality here and now, immortality there and then – are more than just mental contraptions let them go deeper and explain that.
After all, given the stakes here, narrowing it down to personal experiences would seem to be the least productive direction in which to go.
This is a philosophy forum. And here, by and large, it’s not about what makes people feel good or bad, positive or negative, happy or sad. It’s about thinking through their own understanding of themselves out in the world with others and coming into contact with those who think otherwise.
How, then, given particular sets of circumstances, and using the tools of philosophy, might it be determined what it makes the most sense to believe. What it is wise to believe.
For me, it’s less what inspires you, and how, existentially, you came to be inspired by this instead of that. Re God and religion or any other issues that generate “conflicting goods”.
Happy? How do you suppose that thinking yourself into believing – philosophically – that your own existence is essentially meaningless, purposeless and on the road to oblivion, would make you happy?
I’m truly sorry to hear about your friend. But the words I use here are not about what comforts people. That’s what the words of God are for. My words revolve instead around trying to the best of my ability to understand what on earth this thing we call “reality” and “the human condition” are all about.
In a philosophy venue.
Okay, maybe.
I’m still stuck however trying to figure out why on earth I keep coming back to this…
"He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. " John Fowles
…all the time.
And then the part where I take my own point of view seriously.
To wit:
I really don’t know [in a free will world] whether I might someday come across a new experience, a new relationship or a new source of information and knowledge [like a post here] that does manage to tug/yank me up out the hole I’m in.
Correction:
You have your Paul Simon lyrics, I have mine.
You obviously haven’t taken into consideration that you are making it about you. You try to turn every thread into a thread about you. It doesn’t matter what subject is chosen, you make it about you. You are simply a plague of narcissistic selfishness, and you can’t bear it when people are not talking about you.
This is the last time I will react to your posts.