What is faith?

What is faith?

from:

groups.google.com/group/alt.reli … 1dc37e228f

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V:

When it comes to faith…faith must always be based on the fact of a ‘first see-er’ or ‘first contact’ that is telling the truth.

We do not come up with ideas to base faith on all on our own.

All religious faith is based on someone else’s reports.

If this persons report is based on lies, than the faith must evaporate.

I am not shy to benefit from spiritual and religious tools. The only requirement is that the tool can be tested for practical application. And if the tool can’t be tested and requires faith, I have to let it go for the most part since there are so many lies that religion of man is based on and no one can prove or disprove any of it.

See:

jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ … opic=133.0

That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for ourselves. As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken and useless.

Traditional freethinkers do not accept me as one of their group, since I draw from spiritual paths as well as wordily areas to garner wisdom to live at peace. Traditional freethinkers do not like anything that comes from religion. Kind of a misnomer isn’t it…I’m a freethinker…but I must block out everything that comes from religion and spiritual traditions and whatever other prejudice I wish to inject into the equation?

Psychologist William James once said, “A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.”

Religious practicers as well as atheists need to open their mind and see things without the delusions that both sides of this topic are stuck in.

‘Honor dies where interest lies.’

As an agnostic freethinker my interest is in discovering truth.

When we limit personal prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And realize the truth of Blake’s words that “all deities reside within the human breast.”

If it is religion that atheists or theists need to adopt, they only have to look as far as the religion of humanity. But just paying secular humanism lip service will not do any good. Our talk of spiritual values must match our actions.

I discuss this topic of faith with an ex-rabbi towards the end of this thread:

jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ … topic=51.0

From my own perspective since religion is riddled with lies and ambiguities, the need for faith is where I leave off.

I test the spiritual traditions for veracity. Those areas that cannot be tested or otherwise proved are let go of and those that can be tested are either peace producing or peace destroying.

If peace destroying I let them go and if peace promoting I try to implement some of them in my life.

A lot of people get confused when I talk about inner peace.

Some of them call me a ‘self righteous twit’ or worse.

Well, just because I talk about this peace subject a lot, does not mean I practice it in all waking and sleeping hours.

Sometime I destroy me own peace as well.

But at least I do know the formula how to get back to a place of inner peace if I desire to return to that place.

Peace is always a personal choice as no one can do it for us.

Inner peace does not take faith…it takes testing and practice.

“Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires.” ~ Hindu Sage

Faith is neither experience nor knowledge but the will to believe.knowledge requires no faith,faith requires no knowledge but simply a premise-----any premise.

That which has a foundation for belief is reasoned belief, not faith.

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

On the other hand:

Atheist have faith in the nonexistence of God. They have hope that God doesn’t exist. They have faith that they won’t have to face him when they die.

Some have faith in the existence of real love, love in truth, love worth dying for.
Others have faith that real love doesn’t exist so that there is no need in taking a real chance at love; a real choice from the heart of man not the brain.

amen =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Now faith is the foundation of hope, and evidence of that not seen… Through faith we comprehend that the aeon was completed by the utterance of God, so that what you see did not originate in what is apparent.

These are true words, signifying the mystery of the existence of life out of “nowhere”. Taken literally, they probably mean that faith founds its hope on the fact that we clearly do not have a full picture and the whole picture has yet to be perceived. The “utterance of God” is the expression of the ineffable Source of life.

Faith then is the comprehension of this expression and its reply – in itself an expression of life.

Shalom

I’d say faith is believing in something in spite of pressures to not believe.

"I’d say faith is believing in something in spite of pressures to not believe.


There must be more out there than Greasers and Socs."

Interest new bit of nonsense,faith is reaction to the disbelief of others,does it not matter what the disbelief is in?The world is like a big box of chocolates!! :unamused: [-X

Faith is never having to say; " I’ll believe it when I see it".
Moreso, faith is saying; “When I believe it, I will see it”. :slight_smile:

Faith is a shortcut.

Hi All,

one thought: can those who have no faith be so bumptious as to want to define it?

Shalom

Like everything else in the universe, the Bible has polarity. It holds the key to enlightenment and it holds the key to ignorance. The fine line between the two is “Faith”. The Bible was written in black and white.
White is day
Black is night
Black is darkness
White is “light”.

Throughout the ages since the Bible was written, man has spent all of his focus trying to literally interpret the “black” (words of the Bible), that he has become totally oblivious to the true value of the “White”. (The message between the lines).
“When one takes the time to read between the lines, the Truth will soon become evident.”
To do this requires “Faith”.
Faith is evidence of things unseen, therefore, your faith is strengthened and your understanding becomes more clear when you are able to see and understand clearly that which “Hasn’t” been written.
The Ten Commandments are an example.
The Bible teaches ten commandments. It even lists them in order from the first to the tenth.
Jesus had mentioned to Nicodemus that the most important commandment is the “First” commandment; “Love the Lord God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength and thy neighbor as thyself”. A closer look at this commandment will tell you that it is the ONLY commandment. If all followed this one simple commandment, it would be impossible to break any of the others! The others need not exist. We are given the law to love God and thy neighbor as thyself, then we are given nine examples of how we can do that! All of the ten commandments are integrated into ONE universal law. The law of love. The Bible doesn’t literally tell you that, but a closer examination of the scriptures and gospels will enable you to “see” the connection. Read between the lines. when you are able to see what hasn’t been written, you will have discovered the Truth. That which comes through “Faith”. :wink:

Hi Ucc.,

Oooh, ouch, that wasn’t something I was expecting …

Jesus was a man, Yehoshua ben Yussuf, who undoubtedly was the image of God, but in the way that all human beings are born to be the image of God. I have no doubt that he was “anointed” with divine Spirit and Wisdom and that “God was ‘in’ him” reconciling the world to himself”, but it is clear to me as well, that he was not the fullness of God. He was complete in God, unique in that way, the “firstfruit”, a beginning of a following “harvest”, a remnant of the true Israel, and in so being “the evidence of that not seen” and the source of faith that comprehends the “utterance” of God and is its reply.

However, the Trinity is a credo of those who hear that utterance of the Ineffable through the metaphors Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is deeply symbolic language, not the reality behind it. I find this extremely important because I feel that Christians fail to understand that he is leading us, “drawing” us to “the Father”, not to himself. I believe too, that Christ is authoritative – the incarnate Torah in flesh and blood, by which all else is put into perspective. But I can’t subscribe to the formula God = Jesus.

Shalom

Arianism? I think at that point it comes down to whether we’re discussing truth or consistency. Consistency is certainly the easier one to demonstrate and perceive! So in that vein, I’d say that what you’ve presented is certainly consistent, and I can see why you’d still respect the Jewish approach on something like this. But, the notion of Jesus as fully God and fully man is quite old, and I think the followers of that notion are consistent in breaking with the Jews on this point as well.

EDIT: It seems we’ve leaped into the wrong thread, Bob!

In a nice way you are really saying that Jesus was just a man, not the God/ man incarnated able to reconcile the world back to himself. In other words, he is not the seed spoken of by God in Genesis as the one who would bruise the head of the serpent.

Have you considered these verses:

First , Colossians 1: 12-19.

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

That adds up to Jesus Christ = God!

Second, God the Father referred to Jesus as his God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Again that adds up to Jesus Christ equals God. If you say he was good man just not God then we really don’t have an incarnation that is able to reconcile man back to God; for one he wouldn’t be the promised seed spoken of in Genesis. Therefore, we would need to be looking for that seed to appear. Second, Jesus would be a liar or lunitic but he sure wouldn’t be just a good man of sorts; saying what he said and being a man only like the rest of us.

Therefore, one must conclude that he was 100% God and 100% man at the same time or he was a fake and a false prophet ; one who should be disregarded as such. I see absolutely no grounds for drawing any other conclusions about this man.

Humans waste so much of their precious lifetimes floundering in ‘states of faith’. My view is that faith exists because the alternative is too frightful. People couch their faith in moralistic terms, but it’s fear that motivates, not morality. Morality is a way of structuring the universe so that the unknown isn’t the big scary (hopeless) void it seems, but is instead turned into something comforting. Neither of which is true about it, but in order to maintain the illusion of inherent self, we have to create an illusory structure.

At best, one can have enough confidence in a theory as worthwhile of further pursuit, to subject that theory to experience (not limited to intellect) in order to verify its truth. In this respect the theory is like a map of a place not yet visited. When you travel to that place and verify that the information on the map is true, then you can have confidence in it. But along that metaphorical journey, there comes a point when reason must prevail; otherwise it’s just stumbling along in a dream, a form of blindness. And there’s no means of determining whether or not the map is accurate.

Some assert that there’s no difference between faith in the supernatural and faith in science. I’d say that taking the journey with intention to apply reason to what one experiences is the difference.

Hi Ace,

These are major themes of Paul which agree with my own belief. Notice the language is in itself deeply symbolic “saints in light”, “authority of darkness”, “the kingdom of the son of his love”, “the inheritance” – very much based on the symbolism of the Old Testament but transcended through the new Covenant (Jer.31:31f). This language was used to create the new mythos of the incarnate divine Wisdom (chokmâh), which we know from Proverbs (8:27) was with God from the beginning of creation:

“When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle on the face of the deep, when He formed the clouds above, when He made the strong fountains of the deep, when He gave to the sea its limit, that the waters should not pass beyond His command; when He decreed the foundations of the earth, then I was at His side, like a master workman; and I was His delights day by day, rejoicing before Him at every time; rejoicing in the world, His earth; and my delight was with the sons of men.”

It is this divine wisdom that calls out to mankind: “I call to you, O men, and my voice is to the sons of men. Understand wisdom, simple ones; and fools, be of an understanding heart. Hear, for I will speak of excellent things, and from the opening of my lips shall be right things. For my mouth shall speak of truth, and wickedness is hateful to my lips. All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; nothing crooked or perverse is in them; they are all plain to the understanding one; and right to those who find knowledge. Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge, rather than choice gold.” (Prov.:sunglasses:

Paul was convinced that the divine chokmâh was incarnate in Jesus the Christ, and it was this divine wisdom that made foolish the wisdom of mankind – a wisdom that ridiculed the wisdom of the redeemer and the cross but was astounded by the power of the message amongst the gentiles. This was obviously amplified by Proverbs, which allegorically carries the words of wisdom itself, but no-one should take it literally – just take it seriously.

Shalom

“What is faith?”

Think about it this way for a moment: What is faithful? Being faithful largely involves being loyal. So could we meaningfully say that faith largely involves loyalty? Being loyal to something involves binding yourself to it. How strong is that bond? For we also know something of faithfulness from its absence in faithlessness. For instance, in the case of a faithless spouse the bond of marriage is weak.

Could we meaningfully say that a man without faith in something has no loyalty to it and no bond with it?

I would agree with this if I didn’t understand one undelying factabout humannature that, no matter what we do, is inescapable.

We like something for a reason,
however,
We love something without reason.

Therefore, it’s our human nature that demands a verdict about faith.

and this is where we part ways it appears,

What is literal and what isn’t? A question that should be taken seriously if one is to be born again, born from the spirit above; understanding the mystery Paul spoke of in Coloss. 1.