Note: The mods may think this belongs in the social sciences forum, a move is fine with me. I’ve just decided to put it here.
Main question: What is your image of the ideal society (or lack of society)?
Some sample questions to encourage discussion:
Why is it the ideal? What kind of behaviors would be encouraged? What kind discouraged? What would be protected?
How would humans relate to one another? To other animals? To the objective, shared physical environment?
Is it reasonable to strive for this ideal society? Why or why not?
How would humans think? What would their ideals be?
How would this ideal society be maintained?
In summary:
What are the goals of this society/lack of society? Why would this set-up (lack of set up) encourage/discourage desirable/undesirable actions?
An egalitarian global society can get beyond an idealistic pipe dream if we base it on traditional family values that are respected by every culture on the planet and make every effort to re-instate them where they have broken down.
Family Values
Responsible parents with long-term ambitions for their children
Sharing (Every parent world-wide knows that playing favoritism will lead to imediate sibling conflict) Egalitariansim is a natural behavioral value that is common to most children an should be encouraged outside the family on the workplace. Work Ethic
Every child should be given chores and learn to do them dilligently. This engenders the certain common knowledge that all work is equally needful and removes the excuse that one shouild be rewarded more than another. Courage. Not just physical coiurage but the moral courage too stand up and defend what is right, no matter what the consequences. Heart Love, not just for the immediate family but for the whole effort of mankind. Thus a global history of human development should presage all national claims to superiority. Conscientious Craftsmanship Everybody should be trained in at least one practical craft. Vision We are each born with some form of creative gift. It should be actively encouraged and expressed publically. Intellectual accumen
A scientifically educated society has a common base for rational discourse and technical appreciation. Spirituality
A common belief in a Cosmic Godhead. That there is a progressive meaning to existence that transcends the physyical
Child education should be radically re-directed away from commercial exploitation. The world and is natural resources could be far more effciently and humanely served if our children grow up with the ethic of global stewardship as their working goal in life. Planet management encompasses far more challenging technological inovations and applications than the artificial limitations of money and the profit motive does. We should see ourselves as custodians, not owners. That does away with all policing and the vast expense that goes with that artificial ideology.
We cannot continue to wage war on each other and compete for a lions share of dwindling natural resources for much longer. The exponential effect of populations increases will increase the stresses we are already experiencing.
If they are given a total view of the complete cycle of human evolution - from the infancy of our Stone Age beginnings, to the Cosmic sages, I believe we are destined to become, I think that the immature arguments of this moment in our development will take on a broader perspective and allow us to see ourselves in a far more holistic light than we do right now. As it is, we have a poor view of our pre-literate developmental, a biased view of our national histories, and no view of our eventual destiny. Thus the present is full of uncertainties.
All political boundaries and political ideologies should be abandoned. Natural eco-systems shoudl determine management and the people who live in them should call the shots. We have the WWW to keep us all in touch with the global environment and gives us immediate feedback on how our individual efforst are inpacting on it. Our common family values will allow us all to trade freely and trust each others needs and judgement fairly.
Long ago in a galaxy far away I shared my “vision” of the world I want to see. I screamed it everywhere on billboards. A lot of people criticized me for being somewhat callous and unwilling to consider other views - particularly a compassionate one.
I’m left asking wheather this vision is an aspiration with unclear justification, or if I’m just a wandering troll with a frightening complex. I asked a therapist voluntarily, actually, to see if she could answer. She “mirrored” me. Which is a sophisticated way of explaining the sort of phrase: “What do you think?”
I’m still willing to share this either spiteful or dreamy vision. Just fair warning, I would be a wrathful god.
While I agree with MagnetMan’s vsion whole heartedly and have an interest in Gaia’s world. I would fear that people like myself would wither and die of boredom in MM’s world.
I think Chaos would be much more educational and would cull the human species down to an ideal level. The strongest survive. This does not mean just the physically strongest but, the most intelligent would too. From raw endings come strong beginnings. I would enjoy a chaotic world. The challenges to survive and thrive would be interesting.
But that is my ideal. For the average person to survive you must have MM’s world. so morally I am stuck with that choice, even if it is boring as hell and reduces humans to safe swaddled creatures.
In the Nuclear Age world of the 21st Century, none of us would be handicapped by the guilt of millions of starving children. This freedom of the collective psyche, in a world where money no longer creates artificial barriers to personal expression, would release our species’ full creative potential.
Scientific research of every magnitude will accelerate and flourish as never before.
Long-term thinking and large scale technological projects will finally have their day.
Engineers would harness the gravitational force of the moon and produce energy out of the tides and ocean waves.
Vast platforms anchored in the mid-Atlantic would generate electricity out of the gales of the roaring 40’s.
Giant floating rafts, a million acres in extent, would circulate in the tropical rain belts of the mid-Pacific, carrying fields of grain and orchards.
Ice would be harvested from the polar caps and pumped into flowering deserts.
Super atheletes would compete in Xtreme sports in giant world arenas
Architects would design two-mile high cities, complete with interior parks, rivers and and tree-lined boulevards.
Designers would produce advanced vehicles, yachts and aircraft.
We will be planning how to terra-form the moon and taking free rides in space.
My grandkids kids would drive golf ball two miles on a moon course.
I will be retired playing Earth-bound golf in Hawaii.
In the world I see - you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You’ll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You’ll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you’ll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
MagnetMan, awesome post! Well thought out and organized. I plan to lookdeeper into your answers and ask you a few questions when I have more time.
Kriswest, thanks for your input Could you further explain what it is about MM’s world that you think would be boring? Do you think there is any possible scenario, given the context of his world, that could keep life interesting?
Gaia, What an intriguing teaser! Please share your vision!
Joker, thanks for your (Or Tyler’s) input, but can you answer some of these questions:
So I (and maybe even you) can better understand why you think this image is the most desirable for humans?
I plan to answer some of my own questions later today when I can feel more comfortable with devoting the necessary time into it (have some work to do right now).
Because I don’t find any satisfaction in becoming someone’s elses slave on the way there since such a project needs many slaves to sustain it and I also don’t care about someone’s fanatical semi-religious dreams of progress or upward mobility apart from my own gestures of simple being.
Kriswest, thanks for your input Could you further explain what it is about MM’s world that you think would be boring? Do you think there is any possible scenario, given the context of his world, that could keep life interesting?
quote]
Nirvana makes me cringe with fear of stagnation. An ideal non challenging non feral setting would make humans become victims. I oppose violence for entertainment or control but, violence is a trait that is needed for superior species. To wipe out all violence is to put man in a victim position. Should defense be needed humanity will not know how to react except as a submissive species.
Nirvana and perfection, satisfaction does not induce thinking or invention. It does not induce challenges. I see a perfect society as a dead end for humanity. A stagnant species is an extinct species.
I can’t see room in MM’s world for the violent challenges humanity would need to move forward. Except for conquering space. That would require aggression , invention and soveriegn citizenship free of gov’t control.
I try to think of society from two perspectives. One technocratic, the other empathetic.
Technocratic: “How does Earth efficiently spread life with its resources?”
empathetic: “What do we WANT”
The issues are particularly war and crime. What we achieve scientiffically can be assumed in a lot of areas. But these issues are the heart of debating our successes.
My key point is that war and crime are not things to be prevented. We have done all kinds of things, taken all kinds of political stances trying to “soften the blow.” What we want is a fairness inherent in these things.
We can’t underestimate human psychology- One, people work intuitively and productively when they feel inside a fairness. Two, war and crime are important (like it or not) to human achievement because dangerous competition pushes us past surprising limits. The industrial revolution and war could almost be the same thing.
This question is too big for me for one post. But I’ll leave it at that for now.
You apparently missed the post I made in responce to your first one. So I post it again here.
In the Nuclear Age world of the 21st Century, none of us would be handicapped by the guilt of millions of starving children. This freedom of the collective psyche, in a world where money no longer creates artificial barriers to personal expression, would release our species’ full creative potential.
Scientific research of every magnitude will accelerate and flourish as never before.
Long-term thinking and large scale technological projects will finally have their day.
Engineers would harness the gravitational force of the moon and produce energy out of the tides and ocean waves.
Vast platforms anchored in the mid-Atlantic would generate electricity out of the gales of the roaring 40’s.
Giant floating rafts, a million acres in extent, would circulate in the tropical rain belts of the mid-Pacific, carrying fields of grain and orchards.
Ice would be harvested from the polar caps and pumped into flowering deserts.
Super atheletes would compete in Xtreme sports in giant world arenas
Architects would design two-mile high cities, complete with interior parks, rivers and and tree-lined boulevards.
Designers would produce advanced vehicles, yachts and aircraft.
We will be planning how to terra-form the moon and taking free rides in space.
My grandkids kids would drive golf ball two miles on a moon course.
I will be retired playing Earth-bound golf in Hawaii.
Nirvana is a spiritual state not a physical one. Utopia however - a world society finally at peace after Ages of war, with us all working to keep the estate in balance - is what man has been evolving towards since the Stone Age. War is hell. Any old soldier will tell you that.
Never happen. The base survival gene is far to strong for that. Even the meekest mouse will fight when cornered.
The daring feats of the Xtreme gladiators of the present and future have as much if not more testosterone than man ever exibited before.
Old fashioned war has degenerated into long distance murder. Pulling a trigger or pressing a nuke button to bomb women and children is not my idea of manhood… Mankind has six hundred generations of warriorhood imprinted in his genes. Nothing can wipe it out.
A truly strong man is a gentleman. He no longer has any need to hurt or kill anybody to prove hsi strength. But don’t mess with anybody weaker than youreself while in his presence.
We are not the only ones who is thinking about future of the world.
Check these two videos to hear voices of scientists , philosophers, world activists and more:
Could you further explain what it is about MM’s world that you think would be boring? Do you think there is any possible scenario, given the context of his world, that could keep life interesting?