irreleus - what are you doing here?
[quote=“Sculptor”]
irreleus - what are you doing here?[/quote
Presenting a book I enjoyed. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I just present ideas; take them or leave them.
My name has two ls, no e after them–Ierrellus. This is my thread, which gives me the right to be here. Others who post are guests.
[quote=“Ierrellus”]
And I ma here to tell you that Dowd is a charlatan.
I’m puzzled why you are trying to censor me.
Surely my views are as valid as yours?
[quote=“Sculptor”]
The only thing I had wished to censor is your presentation. Not your ideas. You are the only one here who posts with disdain and ad hom.
Dowd is respected by many, some in the scientist community, Nobel prize winners. Why should I consider him a charlatan?
Perodites,
Once again, what does your AI think of Dowd?
How about a human response?
[quote=“Ierrellus”]
Charlie Manson Adolf Hiter Donald Trump and Donald Duck are also respected by many.
That is not an argument. Neither are your extensive list of Nobel Prize winners!! 
Philosophy teaches us to be authentic and to avoid being sheeples.
Dowd is a crackpot Christian apologist clinging to the last vestiges of creation. He’s about as relevant as Thomas Paley.
Civility would be nice. Have you read Dowd yet? I admire Thomas Paley.
Surely, you have had an experience of awe and wonder at Nature. Well, you are a part of Nature, so your response to Nature is as natural as hands and feet. For me that is a God experience. It is something much larger than I encompassing my I. Psychology does little to explain why this should be so. That the presence of God amounts to wishful thinking is a limited view of human understanding of ourselves. and God.
I fully expect a person that admires the irrelevant Paley to also be taken-in by Dowd, because Dowd is singing from the same song sheet. The song is How Desperate I am to Preserve a Vestige of god in my Mind
Sculptor,
Paley simply addresses the old question of how things came to be as they are. When some who are scientists or philosophers dismiss this important question or consider it invalid, they miss the opportunity to examine something that is truly human—the desire to know from where we came. The idea that certain chemicals got together by accident and formed, eventually, DNA, is too bleak for most folks to adhere to. The idea that God brought these chemicals together is more palatable. Even a child will ask how things came to be as they are. That is not an infantile request; it is asked by billions and has had many answers; And to ask it is human.
One has only to consider the vastness of our universe to realize the vastness of God.
No he does not.
Then why did he suggest that God is the designer?
Correction----it was William Paley, not Thomas who penned the watch analogy,.
Arcturus Descending.
As are the flowers of the field, you are a part of Nature. That is fact and scientifically accurate. So you doubt a God made the flowers and yourself? Maybe that is a psychological posture as you accuse belief in God in Nature is of being. In the he says/'she says arguments the only answer possible lies in the possibility of intersubjective communication, a possibility where qualia can evoke mutual understanding. I cannot convince anyone of my God experience, which had nothing to do with wishful thinking, unless they have had a similar experience.
Likewise Dowd will never convince anyone that God is in the experienced activity of evolution. Darwin’s theory provoked anger from those who did not want to believe their ancestors were a type of ape. The idea of man as the crown of creation implies human arrogance and anger at hearing the possibility that he has had lowly beginnings. So for many Nature is that thing out there, not an integral part of the Self. It is the thing that can be exploited, used.
Man’s dominance over Nature is a conservative Christian idea. Progressive Christians do not think that way.
The best thing Darwin did was to include Man in the natural world as he saw it.
Remaining issues:
Was there a prime mover?
Is evolution teleological?
Is Man a part of Nature?
Is there anything that is supernatural?
The easiest answers are yes and no. What is needed is the why or why not.
Ierrellus
Yes, what do you think? My whole life has been One.
.
My response to nature is based more on the individual I am and my brain chemistry probably. Do you believe that everyone responds to nature in the same way? I do not think so.
Yes, I can understand that. It was the same for me at one point in my life. I would be a hypocrite to say otherwise.
But now I see it as being my love affair with Nature not with God though I have always had a love affair with Nature.
If there is a God, do you think that this God would hold it against us to see beautiful nature but not this God?
This IS the thing though, Ierrellus, we do have a limited view of human understanding of ourselves and when we come to “see” and “recognize” it within ourselves we do not want to face it because we see ourselves as all too human.
Again, I see no reason that one cannot experience the presence of God within one’s life as long as it leads to good and not
evil and crimes against humanity as very often it does.
Prime mover is a contradiction in terms.
Only backwards, not forwards. Results driven, not goal oriented.
Duh. Everything real is.
If you do not find “no” satisfatory, then maybe you should try to justify this extrordinaty claim?
Arc,
Whatever leads to crimes against humanity is not of God. God is love.
Of course you can feel wonder and awe in the presence of Nature and not call it a God experience as I do. What’s in a name? The experience is what matters; and i still believe anyone can have it. Usually it is an experience known by those whose psyches are not dominated by ego. You have to be open to it.
What’s important to me about this experience is that it underscores my belonging to, or inclusion in, all that is.
Sculptor,
Your answers to the issues can no more be proved than mine can.
You still seem to believe that science can explain the reality of all things human. Hence you believe Darwin’s theory can never be improved on.
And no, there is no supernatural because God is natural, the whole of Nature, the ground of our being.
God is the logos that binds all things together.
This is true. You cannot. It is exactly what I tried to do over and over again when I was going through my…how ought I to call it…my dark night of the soul…questioning the existence of God. lol
One tries to rationalize and rationalize in order to cement one’s old truth back into one’s mind and heart but all it tends to do is create more agony at having lost or being in the process of losing something which held such value and meaning in one’s life for most of their life.
The only real thing that I found to help is to simply have the courage to try to just let it all go, all of the thoughts, all of the questioning and doubts and just know that one can survive it - simply by “being”.
It takes a lot of will to give up something or someone that you love in order to be able to love yourself more in the right way. Then you simply give up the will also and say “the hell with it all”. …in a healthy way. 