What Tao Is and Isn't

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
141

Hi xunzian,

Mebbe I can help a little bit? Great explanation BTW.

There are two concept words that are pivotal in understanding Taoist perspective. The first is wu wei which is unfortunately very often translated as non-action. What appears as a statement of stasis is in reality saying that wisdom is not engaging in action that goes against the the natural flow of a particular experience. (Kris, this is part of the uncarved block discussion) The positive statement is that when we act without introducing our “knowing” or pre-conceived ideas then such actions are spontaneous and flow with experience in a deferential non- coerced way. Wu wei isn’t non-action, it is acting in concert with and not against.

A second word is wuzhi. Which is most often translated as no-knowledge. To western thinking, anathema. No-knowledge is ignorance and not to be tolerated. But wuzhi is all about knowing, a special sort of knowing. It is knowing that isn’t dependent on a "one-behind-many creator created universe and all of the intellectual explanations coming from that. (Kris, a couple of quotes from the book you are supposed to be reading! :smiley: )

It isn’t that we are not compelled to deal with the manifest world, but in how capable we are of not allowing our apriori assumptions, our pre-conceived ideas (knowing) to dominate our experiencing. I very much liked Xunzian’s reference to ‘being in the moment’ Genuine creativity is when we are doing something and we disappear. There is just the doing of the moment. The typical image here is of the artist lost in smearing paint on a canvas, but it is also true of sweeping the floor or scrubbing the toilet. It is intereacting with the world in such a fashion that we are just guiding the “broom” in a an efficacious way to what is natural within the experience.

Does this help or just muddle things further?

142

Obw,

In a word, it doesn’t. You want fries with that? :wink: I think it is safe to say that all philosophy, all our words are about life, but aren’t life themselves. I think faust said it best in a different thread, that Tao isn’t a philosophy as much as it is a perspective. I have to agree with that. It is less about what to see and more about how to see.

That’s why it is almost ludicrous when people chide us for all of our knowing, when in reality we know nothing and are just discussing how to see, not what to see.

143

Absolutely no offense taken, your intentions always prove to be honorable. Plus, you have a better way with the words than I do, so you’re always an addition to the discourse.

One thing I would like to differ on though. Your point as to whether one must needs accept “social living” as a matter of balance and harmony.

The Abbit of Huashan was fairly old when he came to the mountain, to head the school. He had lived in the world, and as happens with some, he could not achieve the harmony from within the society. The principle of the uncarved block is not singular, it is as variant as the rest of manifestation. He effectively left the world, as within his original nature, conflict with despair, unnecessary violence, aberrance, etc. created conditions that made his tasks meet with constantly negative outcomes or perspectives.

The largest part of Tao is clear discernment. Sometimes, in “knowing thyself”, one must accept deficiency, and seek to correct it actively, even if that means going outside the “norm”, to achieve the Mean.

144

Easiest question posted here, thus far.

Dependent upon the individual perspective, it doesn’t, anymore than any other philosophy is likely to “affect life”.

In my opinion only Obw, philosophy only ever affects plausible overviews on an individual perception of reality.

It changes nothing, especially if one doesn’t want it to, or conversely, if one expects more than a given philosophy is capable of correcting in cognitive discernment.

Philosophy is nothing more than discernment, neither is Tao"ism".

145

Mast,
As always, you’ve shed new light on this process for me. Thank you.

Ned,
Have you ever been homeless, or in any similar situation where you are literally unsure where your next meal is coming from, whether you will have shelter, or whether you will survive? While I’ve never experienced the final comment on that list, I have experienced the other two when I was homeless (there are too many trashcans and public water fountains to really starve or dehydrate in America. And homeless shelters for the really cold days, heating vents for the merely cold days. It’s pretty hard to actually die.)

 Your emotional content is seriously reduced under those conditions.  To a large extent, you lose a great deal of your humanity.  So, while you may be sad, or scared, or frustrated, that sort of existential crisis that occurs in a more comfortable condition never, ever occurs.  
 While there are problems with living in the affluence that most people living in the first world are accustomed, they are on a whole different level.  Let's play a quick mind game here:  Person A only has one problem -- finding food.  If he doesn't, he will starve.  Person B has to make mortage payments for his house, which he can't afford but it is the only place even remotely close to his job, as well as make car payments (which he also can barely afford) to get to his job, and to top it off, he works as a low-level beurocrate at a job he hates.  But he needs his job for his house and car.  On top of that, this man is going through a rather unpleasant divorce.
  Which man is worse off?  I would say the man who is starving.  His actual life is in jeopardy.  Yet, it is the other man who is far more likely to kill himself.  That is because, even though his life is difficult and his problems are numerous, he takes his life for granted.

That is an unimaginable and wonderous luxury! To hold something so vital for granted!

But I would argue that their problems are problems of degrees. While the man having a more modern crisis does have a problem filled life, he is still surrounded by luxury and his problems are, in the scheme of things, really quite minor. The starving man, however, has a much more serious problem on his hands.

146

Oh I am reading the book Tent. for sure. For it is a puzzling experience and seems to be a mix of a receipe for mutton stew and self expansion which is at odds with each other. I have been flipping back and forth and studying the glosseries and explanationsand reading the contents. Yet I can’t shake the mutton stew receipe. While I love a good haunch of Mutton to chew on as much as anyone. :smiley: I prefer a specific species of mutton for injestion and subjugation, the four legged variety.

I know enough that this should not be what I am interpreting at all at least to my understanding it should not be. It does bring forth self visions and balance and growth, yet at the same time it is not. It is an interesting puzzle. so I refrain from touching upon it at this time. And I go from gut, understandings and knowledge. To do otherwise would perhaps be an injustice.

let me give you an example of the mutton stew, yet, self. Chapter 3, 22, and 27 and their western explanations is causing some interest. Those are but the recent examples I have, that requires my resolving them. LOL I have yet to resolve any in total.So until I resolve most of one thing one explanation or rather chapter I don’t feel free to reference it.

147

Tent, you’ve got her reading the Daodejing?

I’d suggest the Zhuangzi instead. Much clearer, if you ask me.

148

Xuzian,

Well. she does have a particular translation with a very good explanation of both History, cosmology, and explanation of key concept words. No I haven’t got her doing anything. I wouldn’t dare try without a helmet on! :laughing: But between you and me, I’m not sure she has cracked the cover yet…

And yes, Zhuangzi is a necessary corrollary that makes the terse Tao Te Ching come alive. But one tiny step at a time…

149

Excuse Me! Put your helmet on dear friend. I take no writings of religious, philosohical, or political at face value, I dig and sift. I don’t accept given translations from one language until or unless it rings right or makes sense to me. PIffle! I have not cracked the cover, Muttterrrr I am full of mutterings under my breath this very moment. This book may very well be the best of that I have no doubt, but, If I don’t examine it and myself, I do both an injustice. You asked, you stated: I answered, I am studying it. I gave my answer, not reason nor excuse just reality.Piffle and portions of Piffle.One tiny step… mutter my…mutter mutter of all the…PIffle.

I eat mutton I am not mutton. But, season me just right with a bit of Killians and I will agree with every point you make, Use that drooling Moose and I probably will argue with you while speaking to Ralph. :laughing: :laughing:

150

And now, Xunzian, you’ve gotten me into trouble. I should have NEVER answered your question. Don’t ever cross a redhead - at least this redhead! :laughing: I will be wearing full body armor for a couple of days, so speak loadly. I may not be able to hear you with this helmet on…

Kris,

In your diligent poring over the various bits and pieces, you might … uhhh, nevermind. I’ll wait a few days. :astonished: :laughing:

151

Tao is not. And not is tao.

152

tsk tsk tsk

If someone asked me: Xunzian – I want to understand the Dao, and don’t mind spending a fair amount of time doing it.

Then I would recommend, in the following order:

Daodejing
Analects
Mozi
Mencius
Zhuangzi
Xunzi
Hanfezi

At the end of that series, I am fairly certain anyone would have a fairly nuanced understanding of the Dao.

If, however, I were to recommend only one book to someone steeped in occidental bias, it would be the Zhuangzi. Given the inner, outer, and misc. chapter setup, it gives a large degree of depth with keeping clarity. The Daodejing is a rather . . . . difficult text. It makes no concessions towards the reader, whereas the Zhuangzi does. The essays of the Zhuangzi are fairly clear upon first reading and reveal a great deal of depth upon further reading; the Daodejing only begins to open up after one has spent a fair amount of time studing it.

While I am not in complete agreement with the view(s) of the Dao that the Zhuangzi puts forward, it is far less ambiguous than the Daodejing.

Philosophy is like a joke – if it needs a length explaination, it is no good. I felt the truth of the Analects and the Xunzi resonate within me before I sat down to truly study these texts and they only grew with my understanding of them.

But the Zhuangzi. That is a nice starting point for the idea of Dao. Clear and deep. A good text.

Daodejing? Not so much, IMHO.

153

I just don’t find them reconciling each other, the words then the explanation. It is a shadow of left then a shadow of right. I see mutton stew mixed in there. Make me wonder very hard.

Edit Note: I posted the above first part then realized that perhaps I needed to add flour to the stew.(yes, I am hungry alot lately, uh no its not that)

Eastern philosophy and religion, I respect and admire.

But lets put a bit of anthropology in here to put their beliefs and ways into some sort of different perspective and perhaps add to this conversation.

The East Asians (China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Mongolians, etc…) are historically warriors, fighters, they don’t have to fight outsiders they will gladly kill themselves in honorable internal wars. With their skills and propensity for internal fighting they make the Irish and all others look like kids in a schoolyard. They created some of the most devastating war machines. Oh and everyone’s favorite: Gunpowder. Asians are a formidable fighting force, they work as one, their ability to come together as a unit is unmatched in western cultures. Include high intelligence and a love for learning too. I respect and honor these ancient cultures, the acheivements made are phenomonal.

In the ancient days they did not need an outside force to come in and commit genocide, they were doing quite well on their own. The word WarLord is from the east. So I have pointed out that historically Asians are bred from an extremely violent arm of humanity.

LOL Now look at games shows and sports coming out of Japan and China courtesy sattelite TV. They are extreme . Guys climb on a huge log and ride it down a hill, they get killed and maimed, its an honor. And they laugh like kids.
Game shows involve dangerous physical challenges that include women as well as men. they actually have fun and yes they get hurt and the occasional death. Yoo hoo guys! These are all Telivised! unedited!
I have watched them, blew me away I must say. but, on their behalf, its normal everyday fun for them. I enjoy a good argument and the times I did get into physical altercations it was interesting and somewhat exciting. Those shows made me cringe though.

The book Tent, alludes to this historically but, only alludes to it too briefly in the first part of the Historical introduction. It too briefly alludes to why the Sages had to change the internal beliefs and philosophys of their people. These teachings were not just for the leaders but for controlling the people too.

Now if you are trying to cool off a boiling bowl of mutton stew fast would you blow on it and wait or put an ice cube in it to make it drinkable? You would put an ice cube in it. The sages had to come up with a sound intelligent religious/philosophy to help their people. It had to be truthful, pacifying and extreme, suited for people of violence. They came up with and over time perfected their ice cube. The average joe became a true team player and true social citizen and their leaders learned to lead their people, but, the fight has never left them it is encompassed in their philosophies and religion.

Lets get to the Ice cube, this is where I really want to make my point.
The above mentioned Asians are a boiling bowl of mutton stew compared to other cultures who are edible hot to tepid to cool. The acceptable temperature is edible hot right? Put an ice cube in edible hot, bam it becomes tepid, put an icecube in tepid, it becomes cool ,and put an ice cube in cool and it becomes cold.
There is nothing wrong with the ice cube it is great it has its purpose and it is honest. I like the ice cube, chipping off bits of it makes my personal bowl of mutton stew an acceptable temperature. But, if I put the whole ice cube in, it makes the stew unacceptable. This ice cube was not designed for my stew or a lot of peoples stew, using parts of it though can help, too much and used wrong, you have ice cold mutton stew that is bland and flavorless, and easily led.

This is a partial explanation for why I am trying to resolve what I read the actual words and then the western explanation. Not matching up.

Does this make any sense? God I hope so, I have been in and out of here typing off and on for an hour or so as I get the chance. :laughing: :laughing:

154

Kris,

Mutton stew… I don’t know. Maybe they sent you the wrong translation.

For some reason, it all matched up quite well for me, but perhaps it was because I had been studying for about ten years and had about eight or nine translations before I found that one…

You might let the social history part slide and look at how the concepts affect the individual instead of the social groupings… I’m perplexed. It all made perfect sense to me. :confused:

155

Kris,
So your thesis is that Asian cultures are more violent than European ones?

156

No Xunzian, that is not it. Their philosophys and religion were developed for an extreme violent people to save themselves.

I look at what that compares to its possible effects on peoples not to that extreme. And what effects on peoples that now are even less prone to violence.

The Asians have adapted and work well with these philosophys but, what would be the effects on those that have not come to grips or are not prone or or in control through a different way.

What is good for one does not mean it is good for all. I don’t do it with just one culture I always compare anthropological history and teachings, to me where it comes from and how it comes about, is just as important as learning the actual teachings.

It gives me more understanding of the thoughts and life behind the words. This way of learning works for me not everyone. I like to learn as much as possible about stuff like this.

I question what level they were trying to calm a people down to. Individuals, Indivduals that only follow, passive fighters, sheep, etc… To me, what level is an important aspect on how to accept and interpret and how to apply it to me.

I agree it may be overboard, that most won’t think about it nor need it. I do it because I hate lines and make work.

making any sense yet?

157

LOL/ LMAO Now you know why I gave teachers hissy fits and made a couple walk out muttering. LMAO. I have my own study methods dear friend. I find questions that are not going to be on any test and it drives teachers bonkers. I swear I don’t do it on purpose, It is just the way I aproach things to be studied or learned.

I am looking at how the concepts affect the individual but, to do so I must acknowledge that these were designed to bring a warring nation together, to stop bloodshed and I have to keep that premise in mind, I knew that part before the book came, I have partially studied eastern philosophys and religion. I must apply that all ,to me and it is at odds. I am working it out though.

I refered to 3 chapters yesterday did you have a look at them?

Your words on the chapter and what its meanings have been translated to might be of interest. How about chapter 3 for start. How do you resolve the two in your head?

158

Kris,
There is a chapter three in the introduction and there is chapter three of Dao De Jing as well. Which chapter are you referring to and what two do I need to resolve? Sorry, I don’t think in redhead… :laughing:

159

:confused: I know many stones will probably be heaved my way, but the picture forming in my mind is that we are all part of nature, (pantheism) and in order to understand nature, and our part in nature is to develop an intuitive understanding that not only that everything is made from the same dust, it all interplays with each part. Can we really develop understanding by systematically putting everything into categories, and not wholistically connect with all around us. The power each of us comes from within, and the power can only come from intuitively connecting with all that surrounds us.

aspacia ducks as the stones fly her way.

With regards,

:confused: :confused:

160

Bessy, you might want to read his misogynistic view:
"CONFUCIUS AND WOMEN

Confucius was said to be a noble, honorable teacher. He was also known to be affectionate and sympathetic toward others (packet 144). That is unless you happen to be a woman. Confucius believed that women were of a lower status than men were. He was also quoted in saying “One of a women’s virtues lies in her ignorance”(153). Considering the amount of followers in China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam, his teachings had an incredible impact on the lives of women. As you can see the impact was not a positive one. Although, according to Shu if you think something is going to be harmful to yourself than it would probably be harmful to others. Confucius defined Shu as “Do not impose on others what you do not wish imposed on yourself” (148). So why does the Confucian beliefs impose such shame on women?

A Chinese poet, Fu Xuan* wrote a poem that showed how difficult it was to be a woman in China. This is what she said: “How sad it is to be a women!! Nothing on earth is held so cheap.” Her words are bursting with sorrow and shame. Women were even told how to act around their husbands, friends and children (153).

More recently boys are still considered la more valuable asset than little girls. Girls are aborted or given to orphanages. As Fu Xuan put it “No one is glad when a girl is born.” My conclusion from the reading and poetry is that the status of Chinese women is very low. Women in China are not considered to be valuable assets like their male counterparts. They seem to forget that if there were no women there would be no men.
[*Fu Xuan’s poem may be found in chinalinks]"

Yes, I just threw the baby out with the bath water.

With regards,

aspacia :wink: