What the Jewish Holocaust has to teach us about humankind

[size=200]What the Jewish Holocaust has to teach us about Humankind

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Imagine that you were living with your family in a very poor city in Poland or Austria or Deutschland. Imagine that your family had Jewish roots, but you had no particular interest in Jewish religion or culture. You observed the Sabbath and you observed the havdalas, but only for cultural solidarity. You were not inherently religious, and you didn’t even believe that Moses had really received revelations from god. So, you were related to the Jewish people (that is a very proud, worthy and admirable people), but you didn’t give a damn to that, you lived your life with your family, you respected the laws and costumes of the land you were living in and you were a working and honest citizen.

Imagine now that suddenly your life is violated, without any reason it is violated, the city you live in (where the majority of the population is composed by Jews) suddenly becomes a “security area”, as if all of you were…sick. You don’t know which is your sickness, but all the happenings seems to indicate that you suffer from a terrible disease. Are you a leper? Do you have a rare disease? Are you a man (a trully worthy man) and that makes your fellow men unhappy? You don’t know. Everything seems to indicate that it doesn’t matter why. You’d already heard about things like that: persecution, ghettos, always the same insane persecution. Suddenly everybody seems to become crazy. Men start to talk alone, women start to shout desperately on the streets. You don’t know exactly what is happening, but somewhere in your soul you know that it is something really bad.

Now imagine that some time has passed. You are no longer living with your family in that poor little city. You can’t see things very clear but they took your famliy from you. Where are they? Your son (who was almost sixteen) planned to travel to Berlin in order to become a doctor. Where is he? Where is his dream now? Suddenly you see many strange people trying to help you. You notice that some time ago other people were hurting you and violating you so profoundly, that you can still feel the pain. You look at their faces…are they different from the people that had killed your family and humiliated you so much? No, you don’t believe in that. They are not different from them. They wear convincent masks. Now things are becoming clearer. You will soon be able to see the truth perfectly…o but what a truth! After knowing that truth you’ll realize that there is nothing more worth knowing…

Sometime ago I used to be a very proud man. I was proud of my “knowledge”, I was proud of “being alive” and I was proud of “having a nice family”. Today I am not proud animore, I am not proud of anything. Because I have finally realized things that I couldn’t realize when I was younger. When I first read Leon Uris’s Exodus and Appelfeld 's Badenheim 1939 I wasn’t much impressed by all the sadness (the profound sadness) which impregnated those books, but later I become very depressed. I couldn’t explain why I was so depressed (those people were not “like me”, they were “all dead”, they “would look down on me”, and so on) but I couldn’t read any book during a long time. Because those books have taught me something I DIDN’T WANT TO KNOW. About me. About humankind. About us. But I plainly realized that only when I read them (and other books) later, when I was older (20,21) and could see things clearly.

The lesson these books have taught me is that IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE A REALLY WORTHY LIFE IN THIS WORLD. It doesn’t matter how much you try, how much you deceive yourself, we can’t simply hide our faces and pretend that those things didn’t happen. For the crime of having being born different (“inferior” in the ridiculous language of “trully superior people”) innocent people were killed, raped, tortured…all absolutely in vain. With no purpose, no reason. I’ve already tried to convince myself that what happened in Germany during the last World War was just a creation of sick and creative minds. But that’s not true. Because I know that that hate (the hate that had made so many people suffer IN VAIN) is still here. It is with us everyday. It is in our eyes, in our words, in our thoughts. Every single time we hear about a “special” kind of people (“superior”, “talented”," better", call them as you will) we’re hearing something about the same kind of hate that created the gas chambers…

It is easy for some of you simply answer me saying: o can’t you see that German people do feel guilty because of what happened in their land? No, I can’t. Because “feeling guilty” is not enough. Feeling guilty doesn’t bring defenseless people back. Feeling guilty is not different from feeling indifferent. There’s no forgiveness. There’s no explanation. There’s no reason. There are only memories, sad, depressive memories of millions of people shouting, begging help, being COMPLETELY AND DEFINITELY violated…in vain. For our “land”, for our “flag” for our “dignity” and our “race” we can do anything we want, we can become monsters. After our enemies (who were indeed better than us) are dead, we can simply “regret” what we had done and become “human” again. That is what had happened with Germaan people. Not only with them. Religious and nationalist hatred is still in the saddle in Europe. This fucking childish “anti-semitism” never dies. A Jew will never, never feel like a real part of this world, because some people let it clear that they don’t belong to our world. “They are inferior to us”, some say. The true meaning of this sentence is: “They are indeed superior to us. Incredibly superior”.

It is easy for us to think that the past is the past. Ok. If what happened in Germany were really a unique event in the history of humankind, that would be right. But that’s not true. There were many events like it in “our” history. What’s the difference between Jewish Holocaust and nigger slavery? What’s the difference between Jewish Holocaust and indian massacres? What was the reason behind all this dirt? “Nationalism”? “Race”?“Civilization”? “Religion”? No. Hate. Purely human hate. That’s all. That’s the reason behind all our acts: hate toward what is different from us. This hate killed the Jews, this hate killed the American indians and this hate killed the “heretics” at the Catholic stakes. That is man. Man is that. Man is just that.

I have stated that it is impossible to live a really worthy life in this world. Maybe you haven’t understood why. It is simple: before facts like the Jewish Holocaust, all the truth about life is revealed: we think that we’re “free” in society, that we “control” our lifes, but that is not true. The man who is helping you today is your ennemy tomorrow. You become sad when you see Holocaust images, but you never stop to think that you could be one of those monsters. For the sake of “nation”, “race” or “true religion”, a man can do an unbelievable harm and not feel guilty for that. Man can be controlled by anything. Those monsters who had killed the jews are not completely dead. They’re among us. Maybe they are our neighbours. Maybe they are ouselves.

And not only they are not completely dead. Their victims are also alive. They’re here with us. Still crying, still begging help, still becoming slowly insane (like Appelfeld’s characters). They are looking at us and telling us something we don’t want to know. They are telling us with their scaring faces not to believe in anything, and mainly not to believe in man.

“Man is that”, they are crying…

“Man is just that.”

Hello F(R)IEND(S)

In my opinion, this post belongs in the Rant Forum.
Your idea that it is impossible to live a worthy life is truly sad… for you.

If the lesson you learned from the atrocities of the holocaust is:

then you shall not live a worthy life.

Good luck.

You are really deppressed aren’t you? How often in your life do you see this kind of hatred? I hear about it on the news occasionally, but in general, the people around me really dont do the things you say, dont think the things you think. So its just not a problem for me… Why is it a problem for you? If you were or are yourself in a situation where humanity’s capacity to hate is expressed to a significant degree, than I could understand your sentiment. But such significant expression of hate is indeed rare. At least in my experience. Sure there were tradgic events in the past and even now. But why worry about them? What reason do you have for looking back at those events? Are you so sure that what happend in the holocoust and all the other events you mentioned reflects on all the people of the world? Are you so sure that there are alot of people around you that are capable of expressing that much hate? There are surely such people around the world, but they are not many, at least in my experience. Now to philosophy:

“IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE A REALLY WORTHY LIFE IN THIS WORLD”

REMEMBER THIS: Worth is totally subjective! A worthy life for you is totally diffirent than a worthy life for another. For a neo-nazi, a worthy life would be to kill as many jews as possible. And whose life, yours or the neo-nazi’s is worthier? By my subjective opinion of the definition and use of worth, its the person who obtained the most pleasure out of life. But thats just me… You seem to have a very diffirent interpretation of worth. So how can you make such a general statement as the above with such a subjective word? That statement above is useless. All it says is that YOU cant find anything in this world that YOU consider worthy. Big deal. Im sorry for you. I hope you realise at some point that being so damn upset is a waste of time. OR, maybe you are addicted to human drama. Maybe you get your kicks off being deppressed. Maybe you have found a worthy life, and that is to be completely convinced life is unworthy. I have met people like this, and I think I have probably experienced the pleasure involved in such a state. The emotional whirlwind ascociated with thinking about the world in such a way is like the feeling you get after watching a horribly tradgic movie. I can see how the emotional response to human tradgedy can be dsired, I do feel something pleasurable after seeing a tradgic film, though I dont really understand why. If this is the case, then I would have to believe that such a state could possibly be dangerous. You could become so infatuated with human tradgedy, you may think the biggest thrill would be the greatest tradgedy of all, your own death. So if you ever start considering suicide friend, ask questions. Think about why you are considering suicide, think about what makes you have this view of the world you have. Just keep asking questions. It will at least hold you off, and at best, if you stay true to the questioning, if you leave no stone unturned, and just keep asking questions, you will realize just how little we know. This shouldn’t be a bad thing, this should give you hope. It should make you realize that there are so many opertunities out there, so much to explore. Its something to look forward to, who knows what we will find.

While hardcore nihilists should just be quite for their own good, depresed nihilists should read some Nietzsche - the man offers you nothing less than intellectual evolution.

About your assertion that it’s impossible to live a worthy life, Nietzsche would have the following for you:

  1. Forget about the concept of worthiness.
  2. Know exactly what you want out of life.
  3. Start to try to get what you want.

I congragulate you, as you’ve already passed the stage of trying to manifest out some illusive “worthy” goals of life, in some pathetic self-deception. Now the advance for you should be in the direction of over-coming nihilism - the Nietzschian way.

Pictures from the holocaust still haunt me too. How could human beings have done that?

But I think you are over-generalizing. While some people will become barbaric under certain conditions, many will not. Many will in fact fight against barbarism with all their strength and die before succumbing to it.

“liberal” white guilt is a wonderful thing…

-Imp

If there’s nothing in this world that makes a worthy live possible then why bother carrying on? Why bother posting here?

There must be something, even if it only as trivial as donuts, that makes life seem like fun

Personally I enjoy cheeses, the occasional samosa, red wine and trying to win arguments I can’t win

Not really. Wayne Rooney can play football better than I can. This is a demonstrable fact. It has nothing to do with gas chambers

On the contrary, it is the sort of wildly careless viewpoint that sees all assertions of better and worse as akin to fascism that allowed Hitler and his cronies to do what they did.

Hello, Russiantank.

Yes, I am very depressed. I think you’ve already noticed that and probably you already knew that a post from me would be a very depressive one, didn’t you?

Every day, every single moment of my life, and believe me, that is not an illusion of mine. As I have clearly stated in my post, Russiantank, those people are not completely dead. Because their memories are here. If I stop to think a single moment at those people, I become so profoundly depressed, that I can easily think of suicide. And if you don’t agree with me that that hate is everywhere, maybe you are blind. Where do you live? Look at all the people at your side. But don’t look at them like a philosopher or like a “skeptic” (who doesn’t give a damn how they are, if they are really feeling good or bad). Try to look at them like a true human being, try to pretend that you care about them. Try to pretend at least for a while that you care about European gypsies, about all the negroes that had been explored and tortured throughout “our” history, try to think of all this fucking useless suffering and then say me what you really think.

Unhappily, my friend, life is not reduced to philosophical books and lectures in universities. Life is a bit “uglier” than that.

Yes, that’s the point, Russiantank. That’s not the problem for you. You’re absolutely right and I guess you are being very sincere.

My reason is only one: I cannot bear living in a world where so many bad things happened and are still happenning (think of American proud army invading a defenseless country to steal oil and pretending that they were there to “help” those people) and I cannot bear people tlaking about those things in such a sarcastic way like you do. “Well, they had killed a million people in my land. All those people were innocent and defenseless and they hadn’t any reason to do such a thing. But whjat does it care? Look at me. I have a nice computer, a car and I am studying at a good university. So what does it care? Everything seems to be just fine.” That’s your point, isn’t it? I am sorry if things are not so simple to me.

Yes, I DO BELIEVE IN THAT. I believe that we’re always among enemies and I believe that we’re always among inherently evil people. I profoundly believe that another holocaust can happen in our world, but I just don’t know who will be the victim this time. What about the liberal Christians?

O guy that sound so original. Do you feel sorry for me? Russiantank, you don’t feel “sorry” for anyone. Please, don’t be sarcastic. I was almost convinced that everything is really relative, but now I am not convinced of that. I believe that there are things that are not relative. It doesn’t matter the reason why, but I think that if those people hadn’t the right to live a worthy life, NOBODY HAS THIS RIGHT. Can you understand that at least? How do you call that? Stupidity? I call it…humanity.

“How little we know…”

That sounds good, I agree with you at a certain extent, but of course I can’t agree with you completely. People like you, Russiantank, think that what cannot be solved with reason can be solved with rethoric. “I don’t blame you, I think you should have your own opinions, but if this world is so bad, start considering suicide”. O god, please put me in a world where things are not that simple. I don’t know if you will understand that, but if life is limited and ends in death, not to be upset is also a waste of time, isn’t it? Everything is a waste of time, isn’t it? What’s the difference for you in being happy or being sad? If you can’t even feel sad when you think of such a tragedy, what could really upset you guy? Please don’t stop thinking that way. Let me with my “useless” suffering and my “ridiculous” humanity.

Maybe you are just not senstive enough to realize the reasons why. You have many other important things to think of, don’t you?

I am a fan of Nietzsche’s ideas guy. That does not mean that I mut agree with every idea of him like you probably do. I understand Nietzsche’s vision but I also understand Schopenhauer’s vision. I also understand the vision of men that honestly thought that life is a curse, not a gift. I understand them profoundly- sometimes I am one of them.

You have read “Antichrist”, haven’t you? I think things were not exactly like you say they were at that point of Nietzsche’s life. Because "Antichrist" is a nihilistic book. I think that if you read it again carefully you should notice that by the end of his life my dear German friend come to the same conclusions than me.

If we were all schizophrenic–there is none less schizophrenic–then we would all have the exact same qualities and we would all be normal.
If we are all unworthy–there is none less worhty–then we would all have the same virtues–and we would all we worthwile.

Question: Is this line of reasoning sound? [this is a genuine question]
I guess what I am asking is that if we can measure worth than some will be by default worthy (even if they are worth little). Is that not accurate? Are we debating whether we can measure worth?

I want to learn.

Seriously man, if you really dig Nietzsche, then any quote from the moral sentiments section of the humanalltoohuman would sort you out. Actually, let me quote one for you now, it’s the first aphorism of the second volume:

To the disillusioned in philosophy.— If you have hitherto believed that life was one of the highest value and now see yourselves disappointed, do you at once have to get rid of it at the lowest possible price?

Uniquor, you and all the other “philosophers” of this site seem so profoundly sarcastic and ironic regarding every little thing which is discussed here that I wonder what could really make you talk seriously at least. You try not to understand me, guy (yes, guy). I guess Nietzsche would understand me well. I am very closed to him, as I have already stated, we would talk with each other in the same language. But you can’t unerstand what is my point here. You’ll start to talk about which books from Nietzsche were good and which were bad,and that’s all. That’s Philosophy. Life is simply reduced to some boring and endless discussions about subjects that simply don’t matter at all and “everything is right”.

It doesn’t matter how you felt when you read Human All tooHuman. It doesn’t really matter at all. You say that Nietzsche was “over-human”, and you can’t realize that this didn’t prevent him from becoming a totally insane man. You talk about my pessimism as if it were my choice, not my destiny. Indeed it is our destiny, no matter how you deny that.

I was talking about a tragedy that killed millions and millions of people and I was talking about a HATE which impregnates every little thing we do, which is with us everytime, but all you and your “friends” here can do is being sarcastic (to follow me in my conclusions, if you don’t see it) and laugh at other’s suffering. At this point, it is good to remeber my last words: “Man is that. Man is just that.” All you can do is quoting Nietzsche, but you can’t see that this doesn’t matter at all. I hadn’t asked you to quote him. As I have satated, I admire Nietsche, but I don’t bother quoting him all the time (as a fool) nor following each idea of him. He was a philosopher like all others, he simply saw things from a different perspective. But if we try we can see in Nietzsche the same need of absolute we see in Spinoza, Plato, Kant and all others. The same need of arriving at some place, the same need to go away from here and arrive at a place were life is not so unbearable. The same sick need of absolute, something that is clearly expressed by his famous verse: “All pleasure seeks eternity. Deep, profound eternirty.”

All of Nietzsche’s thoughts, all of Spinoza’s thoughts, all of Epicurus’ thoughts on humankind could never change reality. It doesn’t matter what Nietzsche wanted man to become. It doesn’t matter because that was an illusion, and he knows, that this illusion (Super-Man) would always be reduced to his books. In reality, things are always different, things are always empty, always sad, always terrribly useless. There is simply no space for dreams, illusions or faith. There is nothing but a need of absolute, an absolute which has nothing to do with “God” or “Heaven” but has much to do with Inexistence.

That’s my point here, that was my point when I said that it is impossible to live a really worthy life in this world. And it is. Not because “some men are insane”, but because insanity is attached to our natures. Insanity is all we can find everywhere if we look around us. All a man can do is surrendering to his environment, to his society, and becomes what his environment tells him he must become. “We are all equal. Look at our neighbours. They are not equal to us. They have money and they laugh at us. We are all equal, so, if our neighbours have money, they must share it with us, cause nature doesn’t give them the right to not to do so. If they don’t agree with that, they are our enemies, they don’t belong to the same world as us and they will die”. It could be expressed by this simple sentence. All justifiable, all suffering justifiable by fucking laws, costumes and so on. You are a human being while your environment tells you that you must be a human being, but when things change, you can become a monster. That’s my point, not what Nietzsche’s books have to teach me. Even if Nietzsche had written a million books nothing would be different. The only thing that could finally change anything is…Inexistence.

I think an intelligent person can clearly see what is the meaning of these sad, but sincere words.

Firstly, please don’t mention me as if I’m the same as all others here, you should know that because as you said, everyone one has a different perspective.

Frankly, your words are nothing new to me. I’ve been more or less exactly where you are. “Fuck life, it’s a piece of donkey dump.” But Nietzsche saved me from this dump.

I no longer wish to say more about this, just in case it’ll make you somwhow feel isolated again. as nietzsche said: “one only remain a philosopher, by being silent…”

It doesn’t seem to be so, when all a person can do is quoting others’ thought swithout even expressing its own opnion, how generally happens here.

And so? What does it matter? You don’t need to like that, you don’t even need to answer that, nothing can change reality, nor even your “philosophical silence/indifference” Nietzsche hadn’t “saved” you from anything, you were not to be saved from anything, we’re never to be saved. Nietzsche simply said things which sound good to you (is “proper” a better word?), because you could never say them, and so you adore him in such a foolish and boring way, that it seems that you can’t even think for yourself. Nietzsche, Spinoza, nor even Epicurus, Schopenhauer (maybe the most human of all) could never “save” anyone. That’s not a moment of my life, dear, that’s not a “twenty-two-year-old-crisis”. That’s not my sickness, that is our sickness. A sickness which is expressed by me through exposing my sadness and saying that if all people haven’t the right to be happy and live a worthy life, then nobody has this right, and by you through your pathetic, fucking “profound” indifference. That changes nothing. That couldn’t even change something that it is sometimes better expressed by indifference than by visible sadness and depression.

And, although it is not common when regarding Nietzsche, that says nothing. Bye.

No, it’s not my sickness, it’s yours and others’ sickness.

I’m sorry you are still living in the dump of life. You can get out either by: 1. endeavour to understand Nietzsche; 2. bravely get run over by a car.

Best of luck, bye.

Fabiano, what is a right anyways? Who has the right to what? You are stuck man, stuck on absolutes. Maybe realizing the relativity of it all will help you get out of this depression. No one has a natural right to anything. Right is a human construct. I dont have a right to live. In terms of my government system maybe, but in terms of another system, maybe not. Rights are just another relative construct of humanity. Worth is the same thing. A relative human construct. Whats the problem anyways? That because a bunch of people died at the hands of other people no one deserves the right to a worthy life??? Stop it. You created your own relationship between the two. Where did that statement even come from??? Why cant I live a worthy life just because somebody else didn’t? What an irrational statement. LOOK! IM LIVING A WORTHY LIFE! There, ive proven your statement wrong… Great, whats the next problem?

Sorry fabiano, you are depressing me because I dont know what you are so deppressed about… I know people that have seen so much more hatred than you, people that were in the holocoust, and they are perfectly happy. They still shed tears whenever they remember, but they are not depressed like you. Ide have to say they have much more reason to be upset than you, who only hears about their memories, while they actually have to live out those memories. You just have some kind of complex. YOU WANT TO BE DEPRESSED. I know it. So stop it. Just think happy thoughts man. Whatever in this world makes you happy, think about it. Get into drugs, take some god damn E, I dont know, just stop being upset… You are upset because of the pain of others? WHY??? Do you have a very stong sense of empathy? In that case, if its biological, I dont know what you can do. See a doctor about drugs that can dull your senses or something. Other than the biological sense of empathy, theres no logical reason to be upset about other people’s pain. If your parents, or society told you to be upset, realise this. Realise that it is merely an ascociation created in your head. Realise it doesn’t mean anything significant, its not the truth, its just the way you were brought up. Once you realise this, it should be much easier to change it. Change it so you dont give a fuck what happens to others. Because why should you? Seriously, why should you care?

Fabiano wrote

What coutnry are you from. If South America, most countries are now democracies, no? Also, if the US simply wanted the Iraqi oil we would have lifted the sanctions. No, this war was a war of vengence because Saddam tried to assasinate King Geoge W.'s father.

Also remember, that many countries are tyranies, and you would not be allowed internet accesss.

Guess what—life is not simple, and as you age it may become either simpler or more complex. As I age, it has become more complex as I am now more concerned regarding current events that which party to attend on Friday and Saturday night. :sunglasses:

You shouldn’t think that your eighteen year old brain can understand anything, RT. Because you haven’t surely understood my words. You haven’t even understood what I do understand by “Worth”, you simply found it easy to state that your life is worthy simplly because you don’t give a damn if all people around you are dead or alive. Curiously I can’t think that way. Yes, I meant exactly that we can’t live worthy lives cause those people (and many others) couldn’t. And we can’t. There’s a reason behind these words, there’s a meaning behind them, that you should be too sensitive to understand. Your age (and your environment, of course, which is what trully makes you feel the way you feel, absolutely indifferent to anything but you) could never allow you to be so.

Sorry if I depress you. Of course I don’t mean to depress anyone. “Sense of empathy”? Sounds good. Do you think that such a thing can be cured by…drugs, treatment, psychology? I am sorry to say no. It is not only the suffering of those people, RT. It is the suffering of all people. It is not “something that happened in German some time ago”, it is something that happens all the time everywhere. It is something that had happened in America, In Iraq, In Korea, In Viet Nam, in Montenegro, in Russia…It is not my “will to be depressed”, it is my need to be depressed. I can’t be another way and I don’t want a physician to brainwash me, because this wouldn’t change anything. When you put a hypocritical smile in your face and say “fuck others” or “why sholud I care”, of course, you are either blind or inhuman. I am nor blind nor inhuman. That simply doesn’t matter to you, but your sarcasm and “healthy” indifference (nothing that life couldn’t kill) are nothing but a confirmation of my prodound pessimism and sadness.