What this infatuation with communism

From perusing these boards i see a certain desire for a communistic state.

i dont understand why. Look at the history of other nations that have adopted it. Look at the rulers of nations that have read marx and others. They have all regressed.

Then look at the US in the last 200 years, look at where we started, who built us, where those people came from, and what they were able to do, just by breathing free.

Is it that you people feel you will be the chosen ones? Is it that you feel you are better than some?
That you know better how they should live?
Why do you care?

In a free capitalist and democratic system you can have a communism, as long as you dont infringe on anyones rights.

In communism you cant do anything unless the Givt allows it because no one actually has any rights. Unless they are the chosen few who dictate those rights.

I just dont get how smart people can look at communism and see any kind of answers

Well, ‘communistic state’ is an oxymoron – I can’t speak for all communists (considering that I’m certainly not in the ‘mainstream’ when it comes to Marxism) but the general consensus is that the state needs to be abolished.

I agree – but then again, I’m certainly no Leninist, no Maoist, no Trotsyist, not even a Menshevik. What we have observed in the past century were not ‘mass revolutions’ but simply coups led by minority elites of authoritarian parties – Russia, China, Cuba, etc. What follows is simply logical: the degeneration into an ultra-tyrannical regime. Basically, state capitalism without the capitalists. Unfortunately, the majority of the parties today are very much Leninist – very wack!

And, to a lesser extent, capitalist interference with the authoritarian states helps in their eventual and inevitable downfall.

Marx they have read, of course, but look at the key word in your quote: rulers. Make no mistake about it: Mao, Fidel, Lenin, etc. were rulers – nothing was done to breed assertiveness in the working class. The superstition of leadership was NOT abolished. Ultimately, the passivity of the people helped keep them dependent upon those superstitions. They gace “regressed” at the very moment they established a party, at the very moment they created a “what is to be done?” pamphlet, etc. What happened “later on” was simply technical. The general failure was already there.

Hmmm…you are “breathing free” to an extent…but let me pose this question: at whose expense? Certainly you don’t think that the U.S. would have been able to maintain its international hegemony and domestic wealth (well, there’s no wealth in Harlem, so ‘domestic wealth’ isn’t very clear) if the U.S. had not supported dozens of dictators, restructured third-world economies towards ‘debt repayment’ for corporate profit, cleared world markets, etc. do you?

Trust me – you’re directing your questions at the wrong individuals. I would seriously like to know

Theoretically speaking, this may or may not be true. Theoretically, if you have communism in a ‘free capitalist and democratic system,’ it is not communism, is it? Theoretically, you may have communism in local communities, but that’s no good for those that are starving, correct?

In practice, however, if we the people were to set up communism on a large scale, your so-called ‘free’ and ‘democratic’ system would bring the batons crashing down on our heads. Remember this – you are ‘free’ only to the point that you obey the status quo.

Your interpretation of communism is flawed. The rest of your post talks about governments and such, but that distortion seems to be something that comes from a stupid, standard-issue world history high school textbook. Again, I am not a Leninist, and in the case of a revolution, I would do everything to resist the establishment of such an evil system. I am, however, certainly a socialist-libertarian, an ‘unorthodox’ Marxist, an anarchist, etc. and I can tell you that no one in my camp has the idea that a government is to exist, that there should be authoritarian policies, etc. Most importantly, I do not believe in leadership, and the second that an individual will attempt to erect himself over the people, I will resist. Anything else that you have heard is a deliberate distortion.

If you have any questions, feel free to message me.

Infatuation with communism?

Abolished or just renamed? Just because you change its name does not make it a differant beast. The state will always be something. So long as people identify with one another. You can ‘abolish’ the state, but after the dust settles and the needless chaos calms down, you will just have another state.

Have you seen what a two bedroom costs on 125th? The only ones with no wealth are the ones that dont own anything. In fact i would argue most people dont understand just how much they are worth. As for foreign ‘investment’, i hardly think we qualify as colonialists, and definitely not imperialists. I do think of Germany and Japan. The bad guys we ‘propped’ up could have just as easily not have been bad guys. Maybe then our investments may have made more of a differance.

My point exactly

I apologze for my presumptions. But someone has to dole everything out fairly before this whole idea can start. i am just wondering who you think is qualified and why.

I see the Hasidim flourishing. They practiacally own the local governments through their block voting and multiple vote stragedies.

They have used boundries to create thier own municipality with its own laws. They are all filthy rich and still collect welfare. Now if that aint communism i dont know what is. Which may just be the case. But im fine with that.

insert catholic between history and high and your on the money

thats pretty unorthodox alright >>coockoo<< >>coockoo<<

Sory i dont mean to start trouble here, and i am genuinly interesteed in this commie junk. Its people like me who you will have to convince or kill, if your social experiment is to ever get off the ground.

I dont beleive your ideas were ever given a true chance because your revolutions were always taken over by the revolutionary and became misguided. Free market capitalism could very easily have been King George Washington, If not for his beleif that it was right and bigger than he was. Also having the Likes of Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton, and Franklin around keeping tabs on him helped out also. The people could hear their voices being heard and could concentrate on themselves.

Sory to have wasted your webspace

yeah dats right you hoid me

:smiley: Hi, I believe you were perusing Future Man’s diatribes. I believe he is gone.

:cry: I had to read Das Kapital, and many other writings by the bourgious Marx and Engels. If you ever have trouble sleeping, just read these text, they are better than a valium.

Most of communist thought is very ultruistic, but is simply flawed in that it failed to account for human nature.

Humans compete, always have and they love to excel when rewarded. In true communism everyone reaps the rewards regardless of their true merit, and wealth is distributed according to need.

True communism has never occured. Greedy communists like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho, used a few footnotes in Marxist writing and declared the “Dictatorship of the Proletariate” in their bid to maintain control and wealth. Severe censorship was, and still is impossed, and God help any freedom loving person who criticizes the government.

This history, to me reveals the communism cannot work in that human nature, at least for those at the top of the food chain interfers.

This holds true for any world government, at least I believe so. Can anyone provide me with facts regarding any government that disproves this? I may be wrong, and I am interested. Please name calling if you disagree. :smiley:

:smiley: :blush: I meant no name calling.

There are communists on this board, obviously. I don’t get how because someone believes in communism they have this “infatuation” with it or whatever.

Where did he go? I swear if you and your inane ramblings about fallacies resulted in him getting kicked from the board, I will strike you down. Grr. :evilfun:

:smiley: I never complained regarding FM. Also, what is so innane about fallacies??? They are meant to understand the problems with the many arguements that advertisers, politicians and many religious leaders use to control people.

He probably left under his own free will, a free will he was more the willing to destroy for the rest of us under what is known as the communism that he whole heartedly argued for under Castro. :unamused:

Also, who made you God to strike me down? This is a free country and I have the courage of my convictions. Have I ever threatened you? NO. :imp: Grr.

wishful thinking aspacia. my comments about than gran zafra in cuba, about it being a wonderful example of how communism is perfect, that was sarcasm.

i dont see why there has to be two extremes. capitalism values the work a person does based on how much the labor market wants them. ceos do less work than factory workers and are paid literally hundreds of times more.

in what i call communism, workers will not be considered a commodity that is purchased, but humans who deserve equal happiness in return for equal work. less for less work, more for more work etc.

why is everybody so quick to throw in the towel regarding human nature? when was the last time we had a govt that wasnt corrupted by the influence of money? when was the last time a selfish, resolve-having conqueror decided to give up all the power that he had just gained through his revolution? as soon as that happens, and a giant capitalist empire isnt there to destroy it, we will all know exactly why “everyone does better when everyone does better”

i dont see how anybody can take an objective look at the world today and say that selfishness of the rich is the best thing to guide the forces that will provide happiness for the poor people that the rich have, without exception, since the dawn of civilization, exploited as harshly as they could possibly get away with.

Groan, yes, it was wishful thinking, and you do not really know history, or for that matter, only communisty theory. All past and present communist leaders have sucumbed to what most humans suffer from: Greed and Power. Those in power, regardless of philosophy, and this includes religions leaders, will usually do whatever it takes to maintain their prestige, wealth and power.

Do not go on another rant, just cite historic examples when this has occured. Otherwise, I do not want to hear what you have to say. I want valid examples of when this “human utopia” has ever happened. Yes, in Gulliver’s Travels, but that is a fairy tale and political satire.

hey you know what, ill tell you what you already know: Future Man is a retarded idiot, always completely wrong, and you should never ever listen to his sorry stupid bullshit because it is all lies.

unbelievable.

CEOs do less work than a CEO?

if the CEO did not do a good job an almost infallable job, one with hundreds of investors over his head, the Board, the Govt, evryone has their eye on him. If he makes a mistake, that laborer might be looking for work.

the CEOs decision are responsible for growth, they make one mistake and they are gone. The money they make, is just a very small fraction of the money they made the company its investors and its employees.

Eisner could be a janitor, but a janitor could never ne Eisner

uhh George Washington?

no just a bit misguided. Capitalism is the pnly system that depends on consumers, which means it is destructive to hold people down, we want people to succeed , the more people succeed, the more people buy and the more they are willing to spend.

Slavery didnt die in this country because of respect for the black race. It died because if it didnt, our federal system would have crumbled under its own weight

what are you talking about

this is completely irrelevant. i dont like the labor market because it devalues the janitor. maybe it doesnt overvalue the ceo, but when somebody doesnt have skills, they change from being a person who deserves happiness, into a slave who is to be purchased for the lowest cost possible. thats what the labor market exactly is.

however, i still think that ceos are very extremely overvalued. according to the labor market, they are paid exactly what they “deserve”, i cant argue with the fact that they are rare and need to be selfishly attracted to the job. but the fact that they are able to do the job isnt simply a reflection of the fact that they have done 600 times more work on average, it is a reflection of the fact that they have been given gifts by their dna, their family, and geographic birth location.

add their gifts to any regular hard working person, maybe half of workers, and anybody would be just fine with the ceo job. nobody wants the factory job, pretty much anybody would prefer the ceo job if only their brain was good enough.

i think its ok to pay ceos way the hell too much, because they need to be selfishly attracted. but this should only be allowed once all workers are paid a fair amount. a fair amount is to be decided democratically according to sweat expended, ongoing stress, headache intensity, etc.

the rarity of a worker is not the most fair way to decide how much money he gets because the vast majority of people in the world have no rare skills at all. maybe if they had equal opportunities to gain them it would be more fair. but thats a long, commie-looking distance to the left away from where we are today.

uh no. george did not pay his army. he was unable to write any kind of constitution on his own. nobody in that army would have let a new king george take over. he was just a dude who gave certain orders to a certain number of people. other people were in charge and probably secretly are today.

besides, the people who shaped america into the monster it is today were not around at the formation of the govt, and if they were, if they proposed all the campaign finance rules and showed thomas jefferson some swift boat veteran ads, they would be guillotined on the spot. all of the respectable founding fathers were very afraid that america would turn into exactly the corporate fascist monster we see today.

if those founding fathers did actually care about equality of all people, they didnt try hard enough to ensure that it happened. i seriously doubt that they cared about poor people.

oh ok so we agree. the country you are looking for is not america. check out 99% of american military intervention and free trade agreements to see how much we care about poor people and their success. even in america, the rich-poor split has been increasing steadily ever since 1980.

im not a communist. i say things like i am one, because todays fascism is ruining the world and it needs a huge overhaul to the left. the US govt has done a great job of demonizing all social reform around the world as “communist invasions” which are, of course, intrinsically evil in every way, exactly in the same way that stalin is evil.

the US govt lies. everything they do helps the american rich and defecates into the mouths of everyone else. free market capitalism will never help the poor until it can be proven that helping the poor increases revenues. until an example of this is seen, no corporation will ever take that risk. until a govt steps in and forces a corp or two to care about the poor, its never going to happen.

GW did not pay his Army because we didnt want a National Army then. Even though we desparately needed one, our own revolutionary principale would not have allowed one.

As for being a King, he already was one, he didnt write the constitiuion himself but he could have. Of course Jefferson and Madison would have been headed to the Guilotine, but Goerge could have been, and was king. He was the one that passed on it.

GW didnt even want to be president once much less twice. All he wanted to do wass run his farm. Hence Cinncinatius.

Are we speaking of slavery? They didnt address that issue becausee they knew if they did, the great experiment would not have gotten off the ground.

They didnt free the slaves because the Quakers told them to. They did it for purely economic reasons, the system would have crubled under its own weight. Even Civil rights was an economic decision.

The US govt does help the rich, it also makes it possible for anyone to get there. I am a prime example. I will also venture to guess that as far as factory workers go, the ones in the US are probably the best off.

I also think the left in this country is what will lead us down this road of fascism you so easily throw around.

thats a pretty amazing thing to say. maybe the democrats are messed up, but they are not the left. they are the left side of the ultra right.

why would you say this? fascism means that the govt and corporations work together. democrats are supposedly the labor/welfare/tax the rich party. the opposite of fascism. i think they are a facade, but certainly much better than the right.

if youre extremely smart, hard working and lucky, yes you can go from the bottom to the top. if youre stupid, lazy and incompetent and born in the right place, however, it doesnt matter what you do, youll probably stay on top. even if millions of poor people are much better than you in every way. and virtually all poor people will not encounter the good parents and teachers you probably had.

you cant say poor people are treated ok simply because its possible to escape. first, they cant all escape, and it sucks to be them. second, plenty of measures have been taken to marginalize these people and make sure that its extra difficult for them to succeed. if its easy for them to succeed, they are going to pissed off that they have been so ripped off by the govt. they will organize and bring change if they ever find out that that is possible. the govt cant have that.

thats true. but the ones employed by the us are only as good as the govt of the country they are in forces them to be. corporations only help the workers because the govt says they have to. if they are lucky enough to get a factory in a place without such laws, they will enslave with the lowest wages possible, always.

thats great, if we allow the free market to control our moral decisions, the evil corporations will only enslave africans for 400 years. thats all. we dont need to govt to step in and force them.

What’s with this infatuation with capitalism?

Wow… the fact that you would post something so utter fucking stupid as that shows your complete ignorance of politics. You obviously have no idea what fascism is and what the current Republican party stands for.

If you did some research on the ideology of fascism you would realize that fascism is and always has been a movement by the authoritarian right.