What we Lost to the Greco-Romans

We in the Western are living in a “scientific era”. So much should be understood. You might even say that we in the West are living in a very “Christian” era. I think that should be understood too. But I think that even the Christians in the West, ever since at least the Scientific Revolution, have lost something from ancient Rome and ancient Greece. I’m not sure when it was lost. I’m not sure if it was at the beginning of the Dark Ages or the end (the Renaissance), but definitely by the time the Scientific Revolution rolled around in the West, it was lost.

What was lost? Good question. The perspective that life is a drama.

It is said that ancient Greek culture grew out of an oral tradition of telling tales (I think one is to imagine the Greeks parked around a camp fire while some story teller recited tails of Achilles and the Trojans).

That became a social institution: theatre.

Now at this point in Western culture’s evolution, one has to ask–did the Greeks distinguish between reality and fairy tale?

They glorified it–sure–making a social institution out of story telling certainly counts in my books as a kind of glorification.

But still, one has to remember that this ancient Greek tradition–story telling–stems directly out of religion. The ancient Greeks made no distinction between the Ilyad and the Odyssey qua fairy tale and qua fact–up until that point, all fairy tales, all stories told around the camp fire, were generally told as facts about their history, where they came from–full to the brim with gods and supernatural occurrences. But they were facts in the story (just as how it is a fact that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker’s father… in the world of Star Wars).

I think this mix between fact and fairy tail saturating ancient Greece made for a worldview that would not be adequately describe by our modern day scientific, nor Christian, way of looking at things. I can imagine no closer description than that life was a story–that we are all characters in a play (didn’t Shakespeare say something about this?). However, I don’t think this necessarily came with the deterministic worldview that we are all just pons to a god-like playwright (although it might for some of the ancient Greek philosophers), but more that the whole pretense is improv–that we make the story up as we go along–but not without the gods watching us from afar, as an audience, who either raises their thumbs at our performance or plunges them down.

And it’s interesting because each individual–on her or his own–not only gets to perform (i.e. to show off for the gods) but also gets a special seat in the theatre as both the performer and the spectator at the same time (one watches her own life after all).

Like I said, I’m not sure when this perspective was lost to the West (or even if it existed–I am speculating here :laughing:)–whether the advent of the Dark Ages marks its end or it was still there in some latent form until the Scientific Revolution–but I do believe it is lost now. We are definitely living in a scientific, fact-based age.

Supposing it was alive throughout the Dark Ages but in some latent form–well, first, what do I mean by “latent form”–what I mean is that if this perspective–that life was ultimately a drama–was in some form alive during the Dark Ages, I can imagine no other sense in which this could be true except that history represented a continuation of the story of the Bible–and even if historians were writing it down, it was not to be considered part of Biblical cannon. This is the only sense that I can fathom how the human historical collective experience (at least in the West) could still be consider “part of the story” in the eyes of Medieval Europeans.

It’s almost as though a reversion occurred–a story within a fact, rather than a fact within a story (but was the story still alive?).

I think Medieval Christianity required a bit more than the fall of Rome in order to venture in this direction though–I think it required the noticeable intermingling between ancient Greco-Roman culture with ancient Hebrew culture through Christ. The ancient Hebrews are notorious for clinging to the “factual” perspective–even narrowing it down to historical fact–the OT was not considered by the ancient Hebrews as a “fairy tale”–it was considered to be a historical document, a record of their past–and they took this perspective very seriously (what do you expect of a persecuted tribe?).

I think that ancient Greco-Roman dramatism, if it survived at all during the Dark Ages, had to be pushed aside to make room for the influx of the ancient Hebrew fact-based historical perspective. That “pushing aside” may have killed it or it may have driven it only into hiding.

But the Scientific Revolution definitely represents the rejection of all that. The overthrowing of myth with fact–if it was still alive then, it was also definitely killed then–and so today, we don’t see life as a drama, we see it as a fact.

It was the beginning of the dark ages and even before that, when the Roman Catholic institution rose to power. They purged the pagan cults throughout the Roman Empire over time, to consolidate power to christianity.

There were mass migrations to Northern Europe as a result. Many pagans took their “non christian” ideas to northern european countries, and elsewhere. During the dark ages, anything non-christian and non-catholic was heresy and burned.

The Persians, Iranians (Aryans) preserved much Greek and pagan culture during the european dark ages.

Also the Library of Alexandria represents that whole lineage of Greek and pagan culture.

Research the time and date when Library of Alexandria was burned. That would be a good clue, to start looking.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructio … Alexandria

That adds some useful perspective, Wizard, but does the purging of Paganism or the destruction of ancient libraries shed any light on whether the dramatic perspective on life died or not with the advent of the Dark Ages?

I presume that many strains of paganism, including what you’re talking about, survived the christian purges.

In fact catholicism and christianity simply adapted and changed the terms of many pagan traditions, incorporating them into the overall religion and culture.

Are you saying that the Greco-Roman tradition of dramatism might have been one of these salvaged Pagan aspects?

Actually, come to think of it, I may be speaking out of my ass. It occurs to me that if there ever was a time that ancient Greco-Roman dramatism was brought back to life, it was exactly around the time of the Scientific Revolution. I mean, there’s a reason they called it the Renaissance–a looking back to ancient Greco-Roman culture and rediscovering its secrets. It’s no wondering we saw a flourishing of drama and theater around this time, Shakespeare being the number one poster-boy. I don’t know if this means that the common citizen at the time saw himself as a character in a drama, but there was definitely something about the ancient culture that was recaptured, and drama did experience a resurgence.

So why did I think the Scientific Revolution marked the death knell of ancient Greco-Roman dramatism (if it was alive at all at the time)? I don’t know. Probably because I see the science of today as having completely wiped away any lingering dramatism that might have existed before it gained its foothold. But now that I think of it, the Scientific Revolution wasn’t a revolution in the sense of being a sudden and violent overthrowing of any prior institution. For a good long while, science and religion in Europe coincided and did not conflict–that the former would ultimately overthrow the latter wasn’t predicted in the early days of this movement. The tension between science and religion only became obvious once science started repeatedly up-heaving religious doctrine and authority as utter bullshit (I’d say probably around the time of the Enlightenment). It was about the mid-nineteenth century when science really won the battle, particularly with the help of Darwin’s theory of evolution. Maybe that’s when we could say ancient Greco-Roman dramatism finally died out.

As to whether this dramatism was alive in a latent state during the Dark Ages, nothing much changes from this. If it was alive but latent, it was re-awakened during the Renaissance. If it was completely dead, it was brought back to life.

But we definitely don’t have it now in these modern times.

Drama has been resurrected, due to television programming and movies. Think Star Wars, intergalactic drama. Now the stage and theater have moved indoors, into the home, on the television screen.

We live in the resurgence of it. I thought of Shakespeare too.

Yes, we still have drama today, but do we have the dramatic perspective–that life is a drama?

Life becomes drama when we believe we are actors acting out what culture wants to change us into. Since we are unique individuals, each accepts this change in his or her particular way. Some take it in as the best arena for reality and look for satisfactory results therein. Others have difficulty going through the changes that culture is imposing on them and have trouble with whatever reality is supposed to be. In any case, when the desire arises to be an unequaled superior individual, as strongly suggested in society, the acting out of the drama really takes hold. For it makes for many an exciting event filled story when attempting to be your own peerless individual self in a world around you that expects you to change to what it wants you to be.

No, corporatocracy, capitalism, and the dumbing down of america prevents the greco-roman interpretation from filtering through to the masses.

So drama is consumed on television and movies, fulfilling the cathartic need. People don’t have “lives”, especially, not lives worth living. Slaves to the dollar.

I agree with the “Scientific Age” thing. This is not a cultural age, in that sense.

The natural expression of man is hampered by his conditioning and by the culture of his ancestors.

But there is still a division in life between the material and the spiritual as we impose on a child right from its birth a series of dogmas, superstitions, religious rituals, language, behavior, and a framework of morals. Thus a developing child is subjected to a series of conditioned responses that finally form part of his thought system.

One of the core, primary seeds of “Anti-Semitism” was an anti-cultural paradigm shift in history. The greeks have the notorious history of theater and art, in the way of realism. But it wasn’t until jews and judaism began, and flourished, in the country now called israel and palestine, that the division of idealism and realism occurred in theatrical art. What the jews did, which graeco-roman culture retaliated against, was a perversion of the realism of greek arts.

Instead of using theater as a means for story telling, connecting with the past (pagan ancestry, ancestor worship), jews began to turn theater into propaganda. After learning the effectiveness of propaganda, jews and judaism went further to pervert art of other cultures, in order to introduce their own ideas, controls, and power. Over time, this developed into the abrahamic branches, christianity, judaism, and islam.

Christianity can be split into two, the “pro semitic” half and the “anti semitic” half. The anti semitic half is the type that retains cultural preservation (realism) through art. The pro semitic half is that uses art as a means for spreading messages, propaganda, and politicking. In other words, cultural marxism.

The intent to destroy other people, distort truth, distort stories, fantasies, fictions, mythology, of some tribes of people, for the benefit of the semitic tribe.

The result of all this? The Bible, The Koran, The Talmud…three (per)versions of history. Distortions of truth. Intentionally so.

The difference between realism and idealism.

Want proof?

You can see this in art, “modern art”, and postmodern art today. Observe the jews on SNL (saturday night live). Observe jews in comedy and movies (Adam Sandler, Jon Stewart, etc.). What is the nature of their comedy?

It is mockery, particularly in the u.s., mockery of Anglo Saxon dominant, conservative, traditional cultural society. Anne Coulter versus Jon Stewart.

It is this idea of “mockery” that the jewish culture has mastered over the course of a thousand years. Very powerful ideas.

Right, the life story of the typical modern American would be a pretty dull flick indeed–the story of a man who watches other people’s stories.

Not sure about your anti-Semitism rant, however.

Gib,
Why do events have to be linked up? What if each event was an independent one? In order to make up stories we have to link up events in a certain way. Isn’t it just for entertainments sake when it comes to stories about one’s life or philosophy? I’m not referring to using the linking process in reaching materialistic goals. That kind of thinking is indispensible in undertaking projects in the material world.

You mean linking up as in we link separate events together so as to make a seamless story? How else can we have a story? I suppose you could have several unrelated stories within one’s life time–they just happen to feature the same characters and surroundings.

Actually every event is an individual and independent event. We link up all these events and try to create a story of our lives but actually every event is an independent event. If we accept the fact that every event is an independent event in our lives it creates a tremendous problem of maintaining what we call identity. And identity seems to be the most important factor in our lives. Why? Why is human thought so protective of itself and so persistent?

It is thought that has invented the ideas of cause and effect. So, in what area of life or living is cause applicable and tremendously important? I can see where it would be extremely useful in the material world and not so much in human conscious existence where there may not be any such thing as a cause at all.

Stories are interpretations of existence. Every interpretation has at least one interpretation representing a subjective, conscious mind. To explain and describe existence and events, purely and objectively, is the challenge for every great intellect, thinker, and wise man.

No sure if this speaks for or against the dramatic perspective, but aren’t stories just a series of independent events linked together only in the order they are told? First, this happened. Then that happened. And after that, something else happened. The listener will connect them together causally just as he does the facts of his experience.

But does couching a description of experience in objective terminology really allow one to escape interpretation? Is that not just the next kind of interpretation?

It’s the foundation of language that cannot be avoided, a cognitive level of communication.

Every attempt to communicate betrays an intent of some kind. For philosophy, a philosopher attempts to portray a rational, logical, and reasonably consistent approach of context.