What went wrong with Joseph Duncan?

Philosophy Forums Psychology and Mind
1

Details on kidnapping/homicides:
cnn.com/2005/US/07/02/idaho. … index.html
Details on Duncan:
cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/02/duncan.resume

Disclaimer: I do not believe in demons. I think there is something else going on instead, that he has no other word for, and so labels ‘demons’. What is it that is going on? I don’t know.

My first impressions (from reading his blog; excerpts below) were he felt his ‘demons’ were driving him and that they were a product of his environment (that he personally was not responsible for them, that he personally was a good person, and that he should receive counselling and love that he was not getting, rather than punishment and blame and constant suspicion), and by the end, these ‘demons’ were so strong that nothing else mattered. He tried to fight them off with faith in God, but they were too powerful. On the one hand, he seems to empathize with (feel the full force of) the pain he caused, and on the other hand, towards the end he also seems to be able to ignore it, for it not to matter – like he gave in to the demons’ thinking.

Did he have “free will” in this situation, and refuse to exercise it? Or was he a slave/victim to these “demons”? Could something have been done to help him with those demons?

Excerpts from Duncan’s “Blogging the Fifth Nail” (warning, if you go to the site, the archive cookies are not good).

Friday, May 13, 2005
Still Confused
¶ 5:43 PM

My blog entries lately are erratic and full of a lot of B.S., for that I apologize. I am just trying to put down what is in my head, regardless. As far as “taking people with me” well, I don’t know if that is right or wrong. In fact, I don’t know much any more what right and wrong even is. My view is either everything is right (in some regard) or everything is wrong (in some other regard). The question (one I am struggling with at this point) is, “Does it matter?”
Does anything matter? My mother is crying right now, because her son is in trouble again. She tried to raise a good son, and she knows her son has a good heart, so why does he do these things? She is probably more hurt and confused than me. Does it matter? It hurts me to know these things, but DOES IT MATTER???
A hundred years from now, all my mothers pain will be forgotten, and other mothers will cry for there sons. A million years from now there probably won’t be any mothers (at least not like we know).
I have feelings, in fact I think I must be more sensitive than most people because I seem to feel more than they do, at least more than what they openly express. I feel for the starving children and families in the world, others say, “Oh, that’s too bad, but I can’t do anything so…”
I wish I could be more honest about my feelings, but those demons made sure I’d never be able to do that. I might not know if it matters, but just in case, I am working on an encrypted journal that is hundreds of times more frank than this blog could ever be (that’s why I keep it encrypted). I figure in 30 years or more we will have the technology to easily crack the encryption (currently very un-crackable, PGP) and then the world will know who I really was, and what I really did, and what I really thought. Also, maybe then they will understand that despite my actions, I’m not a bad person, I just have a disease contracted from society, and it hurts a lot.
I hope to complete this journal before I die (soon) or turn myself in (I still might do that, I think it is the right thing, but of course, I’m not sure).
Speak of being sure; I wish I could be sure about my thoughts. But right now the only thing I’m sure about is that I’m sure about nothing. It is not a good position to be in considering my circumstances (being a felony fugitive and all).

Posted by: Joe (606) comments

Wednesday, May 11, 2005
The Demons Have Taken Over
¶ 9:17 PM

Thanks for the comments. As far as letting God take care of the Demons, too late. They’ve locked up the “Happy Joe” person in the same dungeon that “Happy Joe” kept them in for so many years. Now they are loose and I am very afraid. From now on I may refer to “Happy Joe” as “Jet” (me) and the demons as “The Bogeyman.” If you are familiar with me or even my fifthnail website then you will understand the names (see fifthnail.com).
I have been asking God to help defeat the demons. In fact, last night I was on my knees begging him, crying out loud to him, to help me. He didn’t answer, again. The problem is I am loosing my religion. I don’t accept anything at face value, not even my own thoughts. So when I start having religious convictions I question the source. And in my current situation I figure I am under a lot of stress, and there are perfectly natural human mechanisms that account for all religious experiences. The demons (if that’s what they/it are/is–I use the term for mere convenience) have convinced me that I should at least question my religious beliefs, (this makes sense, otherwise I would believe anything) and that is how they got the key to the dungeon, and trapped me inside.
To be more specific, I am scared, alone, and confused, and my reaction is to strike out toward the perceived source of my misery, society. My intent is to harm society as much as I can, then die. As for the “Happy Joe” (Jet), well he was just a dream. The bogeyman was alive and happy long before Happy Joe.
I was in prison for over 18 years, since the age of 17. As an adult all I knew was the oppression of incarceration. All those years I dreamed of getting out…And getting even. Instead, I got out and I got even, but did not get caught. So, I got even again, and again did not get caught. So, I figured, well, I got even twice (actually more, but that’s here nor there), even if I’m the only one who knows, so now what? Well that was when the “Happy Joe” dream started. I met a bunch of really great people, the kind of people I didn’t even know existed, but here they were, bunches of them, my neighbors, my landlords, my professors, my coworkers, and they were all good people, who were willing to give me a chance despite my past. They were willing to accept me and be my friend, something that was new for me, having been betrayed by many “friends” and even my own family.
So, I tried to make it work. But the problem was those demons. The ones who “got even” for me. They kept reminding me that if my new “friends” knew about them (and what they, I, had done to even), then so much for their friendship. So, “Happy Joe” was just dreaming, or pretending to be happy.
Posted by: Joe (94) comments

Sunday, April 24, 2005
Wrestling With Demons
¶ 7:21 PM

Yes, I am still alive. I honestly wish not, I just don’t know how to kill myself so it makes sense. Nothing makes sense to me right now. Last night I realized I was “scared and alone.” Being scared doesn’t bother me as much as being alone, but it is a fate that I probably chose sometime before I was ever born because I’ve been making the decision to fight my battles alone since I was a small child. The current battle is of epic proportions (I do not make this claim idly either). It is a battle between me and my demons. Only two people in the world have a clue as to the power and nature of my demons (besides me) and they will probably never read this. But just the same, these demons are stronger than even I gave them credit for, and now they are taking my best blows and not even staggering. I’m afraid, very afraid. If they win then a lot of people will be badly hurt, and they’ve had their way before, so I know what they can do. I’ve been praying a lot and asking God for help. I’ve asked him to step in and intercede directly, because I see no other way at this point that I can win. If you are reading this, and you believe in God, please pray for God to help me defeat my demons. God has shown me the right choice, but my demons have me tied to a spit and the fire has already been lit. I don’t know if the right choice is even an option any more!

[ link to blog removed ]

Further warning: a lot of people are responding to his blog… a lot of stupid people. I recommend against reading the responses, it’s a waste of time.

2

Well, the blog tried to attack me with a Trojan, so he strikes again.

Anyway, I’m not sure that when he talks about demons that he means it literally. I will give several reasons. The first is that as a former psychologist in a prison I have talked to many men that refer to their selfish impulses as demons. It’s like the phrase “inner demons” and is a euphemism. Some of these guys are so lacking in insight that they almost come to believe what they are saying. I have especially noticed this kind of thinking amongst drug addicts. They call their cravings “demons” all of the time. It’s a great way to have a relapse, as it is not you that is responsible for your actions but the demons.

Really these guys have a plan stewing in the back of their minds and then act on impulse when the right time moves them in some way. So, it seems like they just did it magically, but really it’s what they wanted to do.

While in prison I worked closely with sex offenders and did parole evaluations on them. They are the best at illogical thinking and justification. I had one guy that said that since his girlfriend’s son could not dribble a basketball correctly that he must be a faggot (his words) and so that’s why he raped him, because he wanted it. The basketball thing is quite a leap and the demon thing fits in well with that type of thinking.

Another thing is that sex offenders usually, but not always, have to go to a thing like alcoholics anonymous as part of their treatment. This program has quasi-religious themes and I have heard a lot of reinforcement going on in such meetings, both for addicts and sex offenders, about the whole demon thing. It is a counterpoint to asking “god” for his help in recovery. So, I think that he is referring to demons in a very loose fashion.

His writing just does not remind me of writing that I have read by real delusional people. It seems too focused and on target. It’s my bet that they find him to be sane by most standards.

3

[size=150]If this link downloads a trojan – and I stress IF – could someone please remove the link before someone gets their system fucked?[/size]

[size=150]UPDATED: Thanks for removing the link, somenewname.[/size]

4

It did indeed and my system caught it before it could implant itself.

5

Perhaps I should have put that warning next to the link, and not before the excerpts.

I will remove the link, however.

Still thinking about your post, Ad.

another link:

msnbc.msn.com/id/8485031/

6

Thanks!

I’ve heard the “demon” thing a thousand times. I mean that too.

7

Why do you think they wanted to do it? I think it is clear that Duncan agonized over this, and it doesn’t make it any easier that his worldview was being shaken at the same time (were the ‘bad wants’ causing the shift in worldview, or was the shift in worldview just making it harder to say “no” to the ‘bad wants’?). I have been in the position of seeing part of myself wanting something that the ‘better’ part of myself knew I should not have (feared the consequences). Why was I eventually able to tell that part of myself “no”… why was Duncan not able to tell his ‘bad wants’ “no”? What makes me able to say no, and what made him unable? I do not suffer from those demons – why does he? Should I pat myself on the back for not having suffered through whatever brought these demons to life in him? Should he be blamed for suffering through it? Would I have been just as weak to those ‘bad wants’ if I suffered from them? Would that suffering have led to the same thoughts he was thinking? Again – could he have been helped?

They are the best at it. But they are not the only ones who do it. Many, many people use illogical thinking to justify and rationalize their selfish impulses, don’t they? The basketball guy you describe sounds like a very uneducated, unintelligent individual (sort of started off behind everyone else in the reasoning department), who no doubt had a bad childhood. Duncan doesn’t sound like a genius, but he’s not an idiot like the basketball guy, although his childhood prob’ly had something to do with his ‘bad wants’.

I think they need to rewrite their treatment program. I think this is why he places all responsibility and weight of his actions onto these “demons” and “society”. I am not sure if he does refer to these demons loosely – he is religious, and when I was a Christian, I used to believe in “spiritual warfare”. It is not so far fetched that this guy believed it too – even if his worldview was shifting, religious beliefs are not that easy to shake – I had horrible, horrible nightmares trying to shake mine.

I agree, but I think he was carrying something the majority of us have never had to “reason” with.

Monsters are not born, they are created.

Those of us more ‘civilized’ folk who take responsibility for our behavior would feel patronized if someone said that to us in reference to bad behavior… but I think a person in his mindset can not relate to ‘those of us’. Does that mean he is insane? … ?

8

somenewname,

  1. Monsters are not born, they are created.

This is what I think. The tough part is to “uncreate” what has been created. Sometimes you can do it but I think that the deeper the belief that humanity is no good the more difficult the transformation would be. It would be like trying to get the devil to change his mind.

  1. Why do you think they wanted to do it?

My experience has been that due to various circumstances serious killers and sex offenders have a contempt for people. They have “learned” that they and other are no good. Usually something taught them that they in fact are no good. In order to equalize or beat this feeling they kill or use people. There was a guy in Russia that would kill and eat people whenever he was frustrated. So, the message her is that I will hunt, rape, kill, eat , and then shit you out. It’s the ultimate control that makes one feel better. I assume that for pedophiles “fucking” a kid makes you feel better because you are in charge of the fucking.

Some pedophiles are playing out the scene of what happened to them years ago. Again, this is about power or getting even as you are now the one in charge.

  1. Bad wants.

The problem is that in therapy many therapists do not want to hear about a person’s bad wants. However, I did because I then wanted to challenge the validity of the bad wants. If you call women “cunts” on a regular basis, then I want to hear all about it. You must think that that is good and true.

Anyway, here is something that I would say to prisoners about evaluating your value system (this was for general criminals): I would say is stealing right or wrong? They would say that it was wrong. I would ask about why they stole. They would say that they knew it was wrong but did it anyway. I would say that they are lying to themselves and really think that stealing is good. They would get mad. I would then ask them if they found a naked baby in a dumpster would they rape it if they could get away with it. They would say no very loudly. I asked them if they would star in a gay porno movie for a million bucks, and again they would say no. I would then conclude that you only do what you really want to do.

So, being in prison and just society in general conditions you to say that you do not like bad things when maybe you really do. Secretly, these guys think and bad is good but have not confronted it.

  1. Again – could he have been helped?

Although people have many commonalities they are individual phenomenon. So, it’s hard say how things are going to affect or work for one person or another.

I think that the best thing that you could do is to get this guy to really talk about why, how much, and in what way he hates people.

I noticed in the beginning of his blog he details how much he wants to help and get educated and all of that. It is my opinion that was just a bit of programming talking. It was too good and too nice and too perfect. I tended to trust the inmates that displayed some cynicism and expected tough times.

  1. Many, many people use illogical thinking to justify and rationalize their selfish impulses, don’t they?

Yep, you see it everywhere. However, these guys take it to another level, as they draw conclusions about people that lead to perverted violence and sexual acts that I think are designed to scar people. Yes, a lot of people that I have met like this are uneducated and come up with their own “private logic” as to how the world works. Education helps us to think beyond ourselves at times. However, some people that are insane have what’s called “ideas of reference” and think that everything refers back to them. These people are super selfish and could have any background. They might think that everyone or certain people are coming on to them just based on chance behaviors. Say a person like this sees a kid’s underwear sticking out of their pants, then they might conclude that the kid is showing me his underwear to turn me on. In a way, people do these things when flirting, however this person takes it to another level.

  1. I think they need to rewrite their treatment program. I think this is why he places all responsibility and weight of his actions onto these “demons” and “society”.

Yes, I agree. I think that it feels good to take responsibility. It’s good to find yourself in error and then take corrective measures. It’s a very manly or womanly thing to do.

I think that the spiritual warfare thing is really just a case of a fight between things that you want to do and things that society tells you to do. There can be many levels of this going on. Your personal life and experience, cultural knowledge, knowledge of other cultures, business knowledge, religious knowledge, and so forth can all be at odds. People do not have these conflicts on purpose they just happen. That may be why it is easier to live in a sheltered one-track kind of society.

  1. I agree, but I think he was carrying something the majority of us have never had to “reason” with.

I’m sure! In a way, being “crazy” means that your ideas differ radically from other people. It must be pretty lonely.

9

A side question…

What attracted you to that job, and why don’t you do that anymore? You might’ve explained elsewhere but if so I wasn’t paying close enough attention then. I am now.

10

I wanted to work in a prison because I feel the most effective and invigorated when I am helping people with really tough problems. I figured that there was nowhere to go but up for these guys. Also, I promised myself that I would try to help poor people out as much as I could. It is my knowledge that it is mostly poor people in prison. So, it seemed like the place to be.

I have a similar idea about children in that they frequently get the short end of the stick so to speak.

Anyway, for several years the prison was quite an adventure for me and I really enjoyed working with the men. I did all kinds of things there and there was quite a bit of drama going on at all times. I would find myself staying after on a daily basis just to wrap up various emergencies. This was for free mind you.

Over time I developed a good reputation amongst the men and the staff. To the men I would never lie and for the staff I was good at solving problems and developing case conceptualization. That means that I can develop a pretty good theory as to what is going on with a person.

All of this was just great. Then, the state prisons were mandated to start a sex offender treatment program. I and a few other people were asked to head the entire thing. I would have to do detailed twelve month long “interrogations” of the offenders and then present my findings in front of a committee that would determine their release.

I got into psychology to help people not interrogate them and I did not enjoy the task. Also, I have a very visual mind and did not enjoy hearing constant accounts of rape and child molestation. Right now I could probably recount with accuracy every case that I have heard. So, this was quite a downer. Also, I found the pressure of making a bad decision to be more than a little annoying.

I got out of it for this reason: the state decided to not fund any more psychologists for the place and as staff left positions were not filled. There were 4000 guys in the place that all had some level of mental problem. I and a few other people were running around doing everything and were expected to do more. There was always and I mean always a crisis of some sort. Then, five guys that I knew killed themselves. Two of them wanted to talk to me but were not allowed to and were blown off by staff. Many inmates that I liked had Hep C and were dying at a fantastic rate. My office had an open sewer vent in it and I was constantly sick.

So, I became exhausted. Also, I would like to start a family and did not want to carry all of that stress around with me all of the time. So, I retired early.

Currently, I am getting back to my roots in community counseling and enjoy it quite a bit more, although I do miss the drama a bit at times.