What Would the World Lose Without God?

ah denmark…i digress.

This thread might as well ask what would “europe” be like without “denmark” or any other “country” within.

You are a small and limited human being, your infinitecimal brain does not posess the capacity of imagination to imagine beyond all possible realms of human perception.
Since a human being cannot percieve much, our ability to live without going into a coma everytime we come across something we don’t understand is dependent on our ability of belief. That is, our ability to fill the gaps of our understanding with things which are acceptable to our frame of reference, or understanding, but are not necessarily universally true, or even factual. The only requirement for having belief or faith is that you don’t understand all that is, and that your mind can create things that are wrong but make sense in the context of your understanding of the universe enough so that the signals from your brain can reach the rest of your body so that you don’t drop dead from a nihilistic realism.

Therefore we all have beliefs in things that are more powerful than ourselves. This is called god, whatever you define it as existence, higher being, creator, aliens, history etc.
This belief is critical to our ability to live our daily lives and therefore to not have it is to cease to live.

So in answer to your question, what would the world be like without god, there are 2 things.

no-one’s definition of god is the same from one village idiot to the next.

secondly, since it is physically impossible for anyone to know something which they cannot know, i’m afraid no one can accurately answer your question due to the universal limits of human perception.

The way you told that story made me laugh.
What a funny place, Denmark.

I’ve been to Norway loads. Get this, I’m the son of an American pastor that was helping establish new churches in Norway! Funny aye!? Anyway, it was interesting to learn about Scandinavia’s general sentiment towards the church. I believe the churches in Norway are as empty as Denmark.
Do Danes have a church burning fetish like the Norwegians? :laughing:


So here is the answer to d0rkyd00d’s question:

What would the world be like without God and religion?

Denmark or Norway, except without any more churches to burn. :cry:

The world would loose a crutch that inhibits growth. Therefore it would loose the barrier preventing humans to move further. Not such a bad thing, unless you don’t like being spiritually responsible and exploritory.

:laughing: Nah… we like to keep them for old times sake… reminds us of what it is… religion… old people talking about old ideas in old buildings. :stuck_out_tongue:

I think it’s healthy to leave it standing… Not make it out to be a sort of forbidden fruit… people just don’t care one way or the other… anyone’s free to go there an listen to a priest talk and no one will treat you any different… but if you dare even for a moment suggest your religion grants you some special rights… shivers Hell hath no fury like a viking provoked

I do think it depends on what kind of culture is present in any given area as well. Europeans still lead much less mobile lives than Americans (though the EU is changing that slowly but surely) and because of that and, well, history, they enjoy a much more “grounded” existence. Americans really lack that foundation so anomie is rampant and religion manages to solve that problem nicely.

Naturally, there will always be a certain amount of religious people just as there will always be a certain amount of philosophical people (the two are actually quite related) but overall, when anomie is reduced there is a lessening of religiosity.


educate the people… and TADA… you have denmark with an amarican accent :laughing:

I agree that education plays a role, but I don’t think that it is as great as you are describing.

Moving to a new area with a fairly different culture (and there are different cultures across America) is a difficult experience. The easiest way to integrate one’s self into the new area is to join a ready-made social group, the most obvious of these being the Church. They provide a sense of stability in a very unstable world.

Now, I will agree that most of that instability present in America is due to right-wing politics and cultural values (career over family, finance over people, ect.) and that fixing that would reduce the religiosity in America. But I think a lot of it has to do with social and financial instability and, sadly, education is doing a poorer and poorer job of addressing that.

I agree with most of what you are saying Xunzian… but do you know why a person like you could never be elected for much of anything?

Because nobody gets what you’re saying! They don’t understand it! they are not educated! an elite few would be standing there listening to you say all the right things and list exactly what ws needed to move towards brighter days… and they would all shake their heads sadly… because they knew what was coming… the guy after you would walk up on to the podium and say something almost exactly conformng to this: our friend here thinks you are idiots… he speaks with fancy words and dreses the problems up in facy new suits… but they are the same old problems… and he has no solutions… The way forward is to go with god… without god this country is not worth living in!

and he would win… because all the people heard was… “blah blah blah”

and “blah blah blah… god is cool!” and they happened to recognize that last bit…

EDUCATION! otherwise all your arguments fall on deaf ears…


just to clerify… It’s not that education will end religion… but it will make it possible… since it will effect the basis of elections… the points being argued the arguments being accepted… and the weight religion brings to political issues…

Once that is taken care of… you can begin reforms which reduce the chruches role in society… better welfare… much higher standards for public schools (no more private, often religious, schools which catch them young) ect ect ect…

I tend to think education is still putting the cart before the horse. People think with their stomachs, ultimately. It is only after an individual has attained a certain degree of luxury that they can engage in activities like philosophy. Since wealth is more evenly distributed in Europe, each individual has a larger share of luxury than most Americans (we can argue geometric vs. arithmetic means as well as mean vs. median . . .) they can engage in activities like education on a more meaningful scale.

If one’s goal is to reduce religion in the population, I think that promoting well-being and stability ought be their first goal. Education comes after that as a matter of course.

I think you have a good point about the distribution of wealth… It’s hard to get a starving kid to read a book… much less care about what it says…

Though if this is true… and you are indeed unable to educate the poor (which history indicates you can’t) then I fear for amarica entirely…

I see no future where an easily manipulated, uneducated majority would gain favor by those are in power… Why would anyone wish to create equality from atop the foodchain? there’s no perticular motivation…

That isn’t entirely true. The founder of the modern welfare state is Otto von Bismark and I wouldn’t call him a class warrior! The whole idea was to keep the poor well-fed so they wouldn’t become rebellious and/or criminal. America seems to have found a way around these problems toppling the government without actually addressing them.

I would actually love to discuss the problem/solution of the US situation with you in more detail… but isn’t this the wrong section for that? :stuck_out_tongue:

Good point.

shooches his bar stool closer to Mad Man P ILP has never been big on staying OT, and I won’t tell the forum mod if you won’t :wink: Otherwise, you could start a topic in SS and/or PM me.

*buys Xunzian another round" alright… you’ve convinced me… So where were we, friend?

ahhh yes… You said something about the welfare state coming about through a desire to avoid rebellion… but here’s the thing… I don’t percieve a majority of voters as being beggers or on welfare… I’m not eaxctly sure the people on welfare are the one’s we need to target with education… as I understand it the vast majority of US citizens are middle class… those are the lot we need to educate… consider how middle class people almost always send their children to private school…

Now you tell me… are most private schools in amarica religios or not? I already know the answer… but trying to show the obvious pattern

If middle class citizens were to send their children to public schools which were secular by extension of being part of the state… then they would be recieving unbiased education. the notion of secularity in an institution would be presented to them in the form of their “school” which later in life would translate almost perfectly to “government”. The authority of religion would be weakned on this generation of children… and the ball would be rolling…

While I was living in Europe I noticed a prejudice that you are displaying here. It isn’t a bad thing, just something I’ve noticed – after all, I can’t expect you to be aware of the American education system! I know precious little of any education systems beyond the American and German ones and that is just because both affected me personally.

While it is true that the (vast) majority of American private schools are parochial schools, it is not true that private schools are superior to public schools. School funding is tied to property taxes, so in wealthy (suburban) areas, public schools are often quite good whereas in poor areas, they are absolute crap. So, as a general rule, if you have to pay for a private school that provides an education in keeping with your economic class, it means you are “slumming it” with respect to where they are living. Or they are living in certain areas that are strongly opposed to taxation (the American South, in which case they are pretty much fucked no matter how you slice it) or in an area that has a strong tradition of private schools as a means of class divide (certain parts of the east coast, more heavily concentrated in Mass and Delaware as anecdotal experience – or the super-wealthy anywhere). But, I mean, I’m 100% state educated and I seem to be doing OK. I shut a lot of Germans up when I mentioned that.

But, see, again, class divide rears its ugly head there. The poor are going to receive a piss-poor education because they can’t afford the property taxes in areas where worthwhile education can be found, the middle-class will receive a pretty decent secular education, and the upper class is a total crapshoot since it depends on how the family leans. But it isn’t like the only education in America worth having is religious education, or hat the average citizen is inundated by it.

So, the middle class is, by-and-large sending their kids to secular schools, as are those below it. So that is the kicker, I think it is safe to say that a majority of voters did receive a proper secular education. Now, in America part of the problem is that our voter-turnout is utter crap, so when we talk about the “average voter” you are talking about someone in the 55+ crowd. Frankly, I think that goes a long way towards explaining American politics.

That’s the first time i’ve ever heard anyone say something not compleatly horrible about public schools in the US…

Admittedly… I only know of how things look in boston and L.A… since I have family there and have seen it first hand… in those areas religious public schools are the only choices for mr. and mrs. avrage… they are cheap and they are safe and all they demand is that you show up on sundays at church… or in some cases that you just sign up as a member and recieve their flyers and whatnot…

At any rate… i’m curious as to what you think this over-religion in amarica is caused by… surely you do not mean to say that religion is all that gives people the sense of community… or perhaps that’s exactly what’s wrong… that there is truly nothing else to call amarica… religion and capitalism is all there is to unite under…

It sounds like you’ve created a monster over there… and now no one knows how to stop it… it’s just going to consume everything until there is nothing left…

If education isn’t the issue… and it’s caused by political callousness… then I would suspect the lack of culture is the primary truble… after all if no one feels a kindred spirit in their neighbor… and all they see is a competitors for the goldmine that is amarica… then I can think of no solution brother… I’d rather fix the problems of isreal then try to bring culture to amarica…

Personally I dont think the world would remain as normal as you think it would. This would be a world where riots would be breaking out, children would be at war with their parents and people would feel there is less reason to care about things like global warming.

You may reply by saying that many atheists are kind people, I agree, but I say that the majority of people could not function as atheists. Religion gives humanity in general reason, and without reason there can be no order, no society, and no future

I cordially invite you to come visit denmark… We are 80% atheists (give or take) and we have far less crime on our hands than most any other society in the world… far less poverty… far less drug problems… far less murdering…

We are living proof that you are absolutely wrong…