When a Tree Falls in the Forest

Several years ago, while I was studying for A+ certification, my PC Repair instructor, a southern gent (with the typical conservative lean) went into a critique of the question:

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one’s around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Now I’m almost certain (given his conservatism) that his answer to the question, and the confidence with which he held it, came out of a mild hostility towards any take that might be considered hippy-like. I further suspect that his fluency in computer and sound technology (he was an audiophile who enjoyed the warmth of the old tube electronics) had something to do with it as well, that he had become so immersed in it that it had begun to project into his sense of how the world in general worked. But his explicit answer was that when the tree fell, it produced sound waves. So, of course, it made a sound! And as much as I trusted his authority on the issue of PCs, I knew immediately that something was wrong. But I’m not that light on my feet and often have to fumble around with a thing before I’m clear on what I think about it. Besides, how fluency or proficiency of my instructor in philosophy paled in importance to how proficient in PC repair he thought I was. So, understandably, I kept my mouth shut.

But it didn’t take long before I figured it out. The problem was that he had answered the wrong question. As is often the case with people who have strong feelings about something, he was hearing something he could respond to with more conviction:

If a tree falls in the forest, and there’s no one around to hear it, does it make a SOUND WAVE?

Being as immersed in applied science, as he was, he had assumed a scientific definition of the term “sound”. But the question was clearly working from the more nominal definition of sound as phenomenon or what is experienced. This should have been implicit from the clause “and there’s no one around to hear it”.

But the point here is not to gloat in my victory over my PC Repair instructor. He was an otherwise intelligent person who had given me some useful information on other things –both PC related and not. And the only important achievement to come of it was my A+ certification.

But it also gave me something else it in that the memory had kept an otherwise trite philosophical musing from slipping permanently beyond my intellectual horizon. Several years later, I began to realize that the presence of sound waves present some more subtle issues and the deeper question of why they exist in the first place. Granted, one could argue that they are accidental qualities of matter and that there is no “why”. Still, you have to ask. It just seems a little superfluous. And the same can be said for light waves. Certainly, we could easily rest on the notion that matter has just been there since the beginning of time. But would it have had any real need for sound or light waves, properties that could later be exploited by eyes and ears? Couldn’t it all have as easily done without it? And while we could easily write it off as some kind of happy accident; couldn’t it also be reasonably argued to lend some support to the Anthropic Principle, to the idea that everything seems created to be experienced?

Anyway….

Does a dog whistle make a sound? :animals-dogrun:

You joke. But it does present another issue worthy of consideration. We would have to admit that it constitutes a sound for the dog. But does it for us -at least in the nominal sense of the word?

There is a cacophony!

This is our home.

Not if the dog is deaf.

It makes a sound, regardless of whether the dog is deaf.

“Can we get away with claiming it didn’t happen, if we get rid of all witnesses.”

No. The tree has fallen. We can see the fallen tree. Last time we saw it, it was standing, It is now a fallen tree. Something happened.

According to the social construct of the law: yes.

Yes, something happened. But did it make a sound?

And why would that sound exist if it wasn’t meant to be experienced?

Once again: the anthropic principle

I mean why does music exist?

Could it be little more than an extension of a tree falling in forest?

Could it be anything more than an affirmation that consciousness exists?

You didn’t have a “victory” over him. You defined sound as the auditory experience, he defined sound as sound-waves. The dictionary itself includes both definitions. That’s a shallow “victory” if I ever heard one.

If you’d have put this article into your own words, you’d have had a victory, one to truly be proud of. Instead, you just made the same mistake as him – choosing one definition and clamping onto it. That seems to be the standard philosopher approach. Philosophy has a long way to go…

And your question about the need for sound waves and whatever…you’ve heard of evolution, right? Evolution is the idea that we evolved in such a way that helped us to survive in our environment, as opposed to the idea that our environment was made for us. So, when you imply that sound-waves are here for us, as opposed to saying that our ears developed to hear them…do you not think evolution happened? I never took you for a religious guy. Ears wouldn’t have developed in a world without sound-waves – our ears are here because of the waves, brother, the waves aren’t here for our convenience.

Like your guru, flannel, you’re stuck on a linear process of evolution.

You have turned evolution into teleology:

a grand narrative.

You’re stuck in a time before evolution came about. A time when the Earth was presumed the center of the universe, because God made everything for all his little children. It’s a nice story, but it’s not looking so hot these days.

Nothing will make you more mediocre:

than the pursuit of greatness.

I will grant you that I used some teleological language in my post. It’s hard to talk about evolution without using teleological language. I don’t feel like walking on thin ice, making sure I use the exact right wording when I talk about it. Most people who accept evolution have a certain code of conduct in conversation, in case you’re unaware, in which we give the person speaking the benefit of the doubt that they actually understand evolution and don’t think anything teleological is going on. That allows conversation to be more fluid and less pedantic.

Our language wasn’t developed by a people who believed in a non-teleological world. The fact that it’s so hard to talk about evolution without implying teleology is the result of an unoptimized language, not a fault of evolution itself. I perhaps mistakenly assumed you were comfortable with modern science and evolution, and so you’d be in on our conversational code of conduct. My mistake.

Really? Do you have a survey to prove that?

There are plenty of people on this board.

I’m just waiting for the votes in your favor.

Oh, we’re voting on who thinks evolution alone can explain the existence of ears. I’m down for that vote. Let’s see. Maybe you can add a poll to the OP.

here, let me click to my “view your posts”, then come back to see if anything has changed.