When there is a system, like religion, we are not free

Can a system of thought, ever make the human person free?

Must we say because we have a system of thought, your thoughts are wrong. Are not system are done by hypothesis, and suddenly with the amout of people people starts to believe it is the gospel truth.
And when suddenly a new hypothesis of thought comes to challenge the system, the person realize it is wrong? Then a new system replaces the other.

The problem starts all over again?
CAn the mind ever be free, free to come up with his own hypothesis without the reliance of other peoples’ thought or beliefs?
Can the mind ever be free from limitations that soceitey , enviroment, education that was brought?

When you learn to see everything and believe in everything, Than nothing is untrue…Therfore no argument can ever be won aginst you or the belief as it is everything and nothing and can be such at any time and place.

All things exist, as one and seperate. Infinate possibilities reign through the Universe all you have to do is pick and choose what makes you happy or enjoy your existance.

To learn is my Greatest Joy and yet my greatest curse. For the more I learn the more I understand and the more I understand the more I want to know…

It is the Purpose of existing here in the physical. And no matter what Choices you make or what you choose to do This you will always achieve, You can not exist in this realm without learning and therefore your purpose for being here is alway’s met…

You are ment to be Happy, It is sad that so few understand the gift’s given them or how to use them but would rather as you say squander on thought and mind for what is and isn’t, when everything is both.

If you keep asking question’s like the one you asked above, You will make a great Student and will learn much.

Learning is the process of seeing, not only accumulating.

I disagree, the student who keep on asking question remains always a student.

Why can’t people learn from history that without law there is no freedom.

You missed the point, And “Wisdom” is seeing.

Your point is?

Tell me you are the master of somthing and know everything there is to know about it and 'NOTHING" else can ever be learned about that particular thing besides what you already know, and I will succede my statement and admit that you are correct.

If not than one is Alway’s a student. Can you disprove this? If not than why banter about it in the first place?

It is the Quality of the Student and his question’s that makes it wise and great not the quantity of knowledge it has aquired.

James,

Is Chaos not freedom?

I think it is.

"I’m interested in anything about revolt, disorder, chaos, especially activity that appears to have no meaning. It seems to me to be the road toward freedom. "

-Jim Morrison

Yes but Jim, you are talking about rebellion, and a rebel always has a constructive purpose, chaos on the other hand is anarchy, I assume that is what The Watcher meant. In anarchy you are not free from the mindless desires of other people, you are literally exposed to every form of cruelty and exploitation there is.

but you’re still free to have your own mindless desires aren’t you?? so you still have freedom. This makes me think of the book 1984.

Desires are not something we want to have, we are not free from them everyone just has them, our cruel, selfish tendencies are what make us human. But you do not want to be the victim of such evils do you? You want freedom from bad people.[/i]

ok? so setting freedom of thought aside, if there was anarchy, I think we would still have the freedom to do what we want (our actions) since there is no government. If you wanted to walk down the street naked because you just randomly had the urge to, you would have the freedom to do so. Who is going to stop you?? There’s no government (no laws like you said if one of your previous posts) so, you could walk down the street naked, or even across America naked. Therefore, you still have the freedom to do what you want.

Being exposed to other people’s evil thoughts and actions doesn’t really make me any less free. It just means I am being exposed to some crazy people’s evil thoughts and actions. period. I can still do and think what I want, regardless or other people’s evil tendencies or whatever.

dan020350

Are you free to do these things? If you aren’t, then there’s no point in investigating, because your investigation is doomed. If you are, then chances are everybody else is too.

You’re not going to be exposed to them though, it would be even worse than that, we’re already exposed to our own and other people’s thoughts and actions, but the law keeps us somewhat free from becoming the victim of bad peoples’ actions, it goes a long way to providing you freedom from potential violence, enslavement, torture, murder etc does it not?

With that statement, I can see what you are saying now.

Thewatcher wrote

The student who keeps on questioning remains always a student. the point is he can never " know" then. He does not know the whole, always remain fragmented.

No one can know everything, mainly gathering information because this person must live eternally. And it is only possible through a computer.
But one can know reality. The reality is that you are seeking something that you don’t know, and so give it a name. That name will then become abstracted into new and more ideas, descriptions, and concepts, and give births to new knowledge. Forever, remaining a student. Therefore stop asking questions, start to figure out what is your problem?

Ussisaur

.

So are you saying you know what the problem is. The problem of " I"?

Again, So you are telling me you Do(Know the Whole which as you say can never be known)? This would make you a novelty in the Universe as everything is alway’s changeing and therefore can never be known to begin with. But than again as we can’t know the whole I may be wrong on this couldn’t I?

Or

Are you a student (who is learning and though realizing you will never know the whole of anything keep questioning the Universe to learn, experiance and find the answers which in themselve’s will only lead to more question’s)?

  1. If you have a question on somthing than you wuld have a general idea or “Know” what your looking for would’nt you?

  2. Why is it impossible to live eternaly or even neccesary in your oppinion?

  1. Do you think everything in the Universe has a name? My oppinion through experiance, was that this was specificaly a charicteristic of the physical?

  2. Somatic and Pictic comunications are the only ones which require definitions and “Names” for thing’s. Do you really think that’s all there is?

Some comunication do not require explanation,names or definition’s, as they are confered with the comunion of information or knowledge and cannot be missunderstood or misinterpreted. “To Know” rather then to think hence to learn you must ask no mater what comunication is used.

James,

What if I was one of the people who wanted to Murder you your family or rape your child, Would not these law’s limit my freedom?

Yes they would, therefore you can never atain freedom through a system of law and order but only through Chaos.

Good point but I’m not going to argue on an individual’s behalf anymore: you can never attain freedom for everyone through either, I never said you could, but you can attain the most possible freedom for the innocent/vulnerable majority through law and order. The latter system is desireable for those who believe that evil people who don’t respect the freedom of others should be deprived of a necessary amount of freedom themselves, like me, but this is turning into more of an ethical debate if we go into that.

Did you know that it is mainly the inocent and vulnerable that Law and Order chooses as victim’s?

Crooks get away with murder, while an inocent bystander in the wrong place at the wrong time gets the death penalty…

How is this better than Chaos? At least with Chaos the Inocent could defend themsleve’s without fear of reprocution from law’s they would have to otherwise be bound by and follow. And mostly left dead by the murder who went free in the inocent mans place.

Example #1:

Lawful:

You kill a man who tried to kill you. However because of cercumstance you lack the evidence to back up the fact that he was trying to kill you and not the other way around. (You may get off “IF” there was a witness, if not…)

You get the death penalty and die anyway or rot in jail.

Chaotic:

You kill a man who tried to kill you. Then go home to your wife and kid’s.

Example #2:

Lawful:

Someone rapes your wife, The lawyer of the rapest get’s him off scott free. (which is what will happen if he has the money). And he goes and continue’s rapeing women. (He may get put away for life but then those in the prisons are just going to get raped by him or kill him) Doesnt solve the problem.

Chaotic:

Somone rapes your wife: You kill him, He’ll never rape anyone again.

A criminal is going to do what he pleases wether it’s against the law or not, The only thing the law does is prevent the inocent from fighting back because if they did they would suffer the same penalties as the criminal (except in very rare circumstances).

Hence a Chaotic society is better for everyone.

watcher~

I don’t like to argue nor outline other side like you. but I will answer this one.

Are you saying that I do know the whole?

Even if I tell you I do know the whole, you will not believe me.
Finally the student always asks question not for not benefited for himself, but for the whole. The student when stop asking question he is done, and does not need to go in there anymore, unless he wants to help others to free themselves.