Where do we go from here?

Potentially, this is likely to come off more as a rambling of convoluted ideology, and I apologise now if that is the outcome. Nonetheless, an interesting subject has come to light, and a fundamental base value system check has been initiated. So, I will leave this for discourse within the stimulated minds of the honorable ILP’ers:

America was founded, representatively, four hundred years ago by English journeyors, seeking release from oppression, religious and otherwise.

Having felt the need the to set the new country on a more correct philological path, the Bill of Rights and Constitution were created, without belaboring historical points, to convene a system of general equality and fairness of execution. These documents were and are the foundation of a new type of infrastructure, that the initiators believed would lead to the most fair living conditions, of the greatest majority. Personal proclivities aside, they were arguably, some great minds.

This country was built, primarily, and most concisely, on the moral structure of an earlier form of Christianity.

Before anyone decides to argue that point, which would be ludicrous, do what I have done, and look through some history, and even modern activity, with regards to legislative bodies, and their perfunctories.

Our currency all states, “In God We Trust”. Our legislative bodies, local, state and federal, all begin sessions with a form of Christian prayer. A witness or defendant in a trial, swears an oath of truth upon a Bible. The same for any Governor, and many locally elected officials. Military citizens take an oath with a Bible. The President elect of our nation is sworn in taking an oath of fielty and truth upon a Bible.

The very fabric of this nation has been woven with a Christian moral needle. I do not find this to be refutable.

Within myself, there is, as like with most others, an intrinsic system, which barks its’ morality to me, in those moments where a misstep is felt. On those occasions where that alone isn’t strong enough, the extrinsic system manifests as well, as a natural supporter of the former. I maintain objectivity in understanding that to each entity, morality is certainly relative internally. We often see similarity of moral type, but the subtleties may not appear as visible or noticeable, hence, I regard morality as a relative, yet an imperative.

Taking into account all the changes in this country in the past quarter century, and many of the interesting and intelligent writers encountered here, the adoption or creation of a new morality is becoming more obvious. Yet entirely uncertain.

Things are not as they were, especially from my youth, and the current socio-political bent, is not what I would consider pleasing. In my youth, respect for elders was paramount, of which I have another interesting story to relate at another time. In the neighborhood of my youth, other parents were to be respected, and their rules adhered to, without question. Profanity in public would be met with harsh criticism, and sometimes the offender even ostracized. Public intox, drug use, sexual debauchery, public lecherousness … considered immoral, wrong, incorrect. Then, not now.

Christianity was not a plague then either, something to be destroyed, but was a mainstay of general living. I am not a Christian, but neither will I attempt to destroy that which made this country a great nation, at a point in history. That would be unjust in my view.

Certainly, as humanity moves forward, old things will be left to the ashes of memories and ill-gotten ideas, things that did not hold their weight through the processes of change and reformation. Logic, analysis, critical thinking are certainly necessary in a greater degree now, due simply to the sheer masses of problems created by an ever burgeoning global populace.

It seems apparent to me, especially after exchanging discourse with some fine writing minds here, that morality is becoming an academic subject, and less a system of personal guidance. This may be an evolution of sorts, or it may be the precursor to the finality of humankinds inability to maintain even the semblance of equanimity, especially in America.

As a matter of personal supposition, I will assert that leaving away or behind the moral system that was and documentarily, is, the foundational structure of this country, will finalise an abject result. The results are writing themselves as these bits pass across the internets.

Shouldn’t every being look at the path behind, to justify the direction forward? Is this not the definition of prudence and sound judgement? Should we not lever the progress forward, in thought and action, with lessons of the past? Should we not critically think through the forward action, knowing the past, and ascertain a definitive system of replacement, before discarding what is there, with a void?

If you can’t look back, then you do not have a coordinating point for justifying where you are, and moving forward will be like stumbling drunkly into failure.

Where do we go from here? I have no answer.

Hi Mas,

I’m tempted to do a “good old days” routine, but you have asked a serious question and deserve a (semi) serious answer. I’m wary of anything called public morality. It isn’t that Americans have no collective moral sense, but it is extremely hard to put a finger on what drives our current ‘state’. It is easy to look at all those things we see as negative and determine that we are sliding into hell. That may be true, but there are positive forces at work as well. How our collective consciousness evolves just isn’t that predictable. If I were to single out a couple of ‘trends’ that I find particularly damaging, one would be the current government by fear factor. The other is the lack of attention to critical thinking. Like you, I have no answers. Only one other observation: No matter what social answers we devise, they are always 25 years late. We watched our parents do the same thing and swore we would do a better job. Seems like we might have missed something. Will we ultimately fail? I don’t know. We have put ourselves in some hefty double-binds in the past and have managed to come to the party when necessary. Will we be able to perform the magic trick again? One can hope.

Hi Mas

Great ideas unless will belost unless we make a conscious effort to sustain them. Simone Weil’s caution about how easily they can perish is quite true. I was typing an excerpt from Jacob Needleman’s “The American Soul : Rediscovering the Wisdom of the Founders” for another discussion.

amazon.com/gp/product/158542 … e&n=283155

He answers your question as to what has happened. He makes the interesting point that the lack of quality ideas and their resultant contemplation creates materialism in compensation. I believe he is right. I don’t see any way of stopping it on a large scale. Ridiculing and complaining is too much fun. There is great resistance to it and it is seen as elitist. I recently found out on this site the impossibility of intentionally celebrating quality. I’ll copy my copy of the published excerpt and you can take from it what you will. But in the absence of the respect for quality and the greater truths above our comprehension, what you are experiencing must happen. The question becomes how low it will go until it blows. Anyhow, the Excerpt from " American Soul:"

brother tentative,

Even though there is a slight disparity in age betwixt us, we definitely understand one another well enough.

But even you have to admit, in a large number of ways, the “good ole days” had something that isn’t present in American social modernity … noticeable in a way that makes some go, “yuck, I think I’m going to hurl” … or shoot.

Morality can’t be a fashion or a phase, and it seems that is the route it is going. Academically, we aren’t helping the scenario either.

sigh still no answers, what next tentative?

Nick,

Fine post.

I agree most certainly on the context, but of the certainty of the outcome, I am still unsure.

Will we see it as this, before the pendulum swings too far?

To look to the future we must look to the past. Never was there truer words spoken. The past though, never took in to account how technology and over abundance and under abundance would collide. The problem with prophecy is that it can manifest itself inways that almost seem at odds with itself. A prophecy can evolve or deevolve into simple equasions that are not truly satisfying. Our presence now and how we maintain ourselves, fulfill and yet deny prophecies. Where do we go? My dear tutor and friend we go where the light shines upon our path. We hold hands and go forth. For what other choice is there that can be productive.

Let the light of what we know to be honesty and caring be a beacon to follow. If none follow then as sad as it is we still must continue forth in case there be wayward stragglers in the dark. Duty is only going forth and that is no great hardship since we travel that way anyhow.

"Ya don’t know this, but you will alright
So check it out

I tried to pick the pieces up
And I can’t think of starting over
We used to share the stars above
I don’t wanna think it’s changed
But now I gotta move on
I’ve gotta catch up to the world
Even though I gave you my life
As wrong as it seems
I know its right
But is there a place
Where I can go away
To escape the love I will forever know

Chorus:
Where can we go from here
All I know is that I love you still
Sometimes we do things against our will
I know I cry lonely tears
Where can we go from here…here…here

Why? Why do I cry inside
For love that’s gone away
And how? How can I carry on
When I know all the love is gone
Where can I go to get away
From the pain of loving you
Tell me where

Chorus:
Where can we go from here
All I know is that I love you still
Sometimes we do things against our will
I know I cry lonely tears
Where can we go from here

Oooh yeah"

– The Backstreet Boys (Lectures in Teenage Love; A History Of, volume four)

America is going after the state-controlled media. Noshit. That’s all they are doing.

At what point do you think the past should be allowed to become the master of the future?

Stagnation results when some ideas are deemed to be holy, due to their past effect, and they do not evolve through challenge and objection.

Risking what we’ve grown comfortable with is a part of growing.

A very fine piece. Thanks.

This seems inoffensive to me. Respect for elders, parents, still exists, even if it is harder to find. Vulgarity has always been there. It was not invented during the 1980’s. It was just not in television, music, books etc. Yet I’ll trade you those little ills for the end of Segregation and the discredit of the KuKluxKlan. Those were real immoralities, in my opinion.

That form of Christianity is questionable, very questionable if it even can be considered a form of christianity. The Forefathers were deists, to my knowledge and the Separation of Church and State was no accident. Adding “In God we trust” to a coin and making people swear on the Bible does not mean that the leaders trusted in God, like good Christians, or that they believed that only the Bible could compel someone to tell the truth. It might have been, am I am not saying that it must be so, that they simply knew their audience, and knew that the people were generally religious and Christian most of all. Given that material they proceeded to build a system that could put this fact to the best use. The goverment could then be shaped “for the people”.
How do you govern a group of christians? How do you become their sheeperd? Then as today you make yourself one of them. Put a christian goverment in place for a christian population.
I do not believe that the religion played a part in the greatness of America. America was great for many other reasons, more mundane but real, such as natural endowments which Europe still needed and they now controlled.
It was the silence of Christians that allowed the use of slave labor to tap upon the riches of the land and made this country Great.
Is America still Great? Better or worse? That is entirelly dependent on the method of measurement.

Is everything of the past “stagnate”?

Do we toss out everything of antiquity, and claim that it no longer has a use, considering the fact that historicity is the cobblestone path that the future treads upon?

Is it “growing” when the direction taken, in the larger sense, lacks propriety? Or is that just complacency in forgetfulness?

Who said anything about “holiness”?

omar,

Thanks for your reply. Necessarily the Founders may/may not have been Christian in the modern sense.

Still the theocratic manner with which they formulated the Bill of Rights and Constitution cannot be denied, unless one wears blinders.

As far as racial injustice and correllating organizations, that’s old hat, and every country has/had a part in it, not just America. Point of fact, four hundred years of slavery here, doesn’t come close to anything in measurement of other countries. Africans are still enslaved/sold into slavery in their own country, by their own people, even today.

Respect is dying in this country, and all we have left are excuses.

Hi Mas,

I’ll have to chime in with Kris, but maybe with a little less softness. (Kris, I apologize. You’re a tough old bird :wink: ) I’m not ready to go back to what I knew growing up, and I’m not ready to accept what I see before me. Whatever the answers are, they must be in the right now. This doesn’t mean that we can’t re-affirm those guiding principles from the past that are in need today, but we may have to find new language, new metaphors to fit a new time. I’m still skeptical that the percentage of those capable has changed. True, we see more neglect of common civility, but it is also true that we simply see more people as well. That, coupled to the constant barrage of media of every sort, and things look much worse than they probably are. Culture is often a swinging pendulum, and we seem to be at the end of one swing. I am both skeptical and cynical as you well know, but I have a tiny reservoir of faith in the human spirit. Our response is always late and mostly misguided, but I’ve confidence that we will pull back from the brink. It won’t look like what we grew up with, but it will be recognizable. Patience, my friend, and keep putting youself out there. I find that preferable to retreat. On any long march into unknown territory, there are always those who scout ahead. Stay the course.

Your culture is now based on consumerism now.
You’re going to a corporate hell-on-earth, and it’s going to be really “fun”, but it will have no meaning at all and it will control your entire life.

Where do you think we should go ?

A direction forward, with respect to ethics, that does not obviate the past …

But I realise that is dreaming.

Which path / direction do you think does,nt obviate the past , and has good ethics , is worth following ?

Disciple,

With all due respect, I can only walk my path, all else is cerebral construct.

There can be no expectation of other’s walking with you, that invariably leads to failure.

This is why the issue seems to be an unsolvable connundrum.

Only if your thinking about it , but as you say ;

So All the more reason for me to forget about “where we should go” and think more on “where I should go” . Not that I believe that this expectation of others following is wrong , just that I see most people are not ready yet to change