Where does consciousness fit into the evolution debate?

As my other posts show I have been reading Dawkin’s and his selfish genes. Now all this evolution so far has spoken about our dispositions which appear to only account for instincts, he hasn’t even got to emotions yet.

I am guessing that instincts came first then were refined into emotions (over the course of history) and consciousness as I have read is as infantile as 5000 years old! In this case then does it mean that consciousness hasn’t even ‘evolved’ yet. Actually that sounds wrong, but what I mean is most of the other things have been evolving for millions of years.

I guess my assertion is more that consciousness has barely had time to stretch its legs evolutionarily to reach some sort of equilibrium or at least maturity (I know that equilibrium is kind of mute in evolutionary terms as evolution is constant and ever changing).

I have heard the term that we are ‘outdated machines’ finetuned for the small tribal societies of 5000 years ago in that all the emotions and instincts were crafted over millions of years for that particular epoch. Since the last 5k years our environment has changed so dramatically that we have not yet had any sniff of a chance in terms of evolution to adapt to these new circumstances; I speak of population boom and big city living etc.

And how does consciousness fit into this? I mean consciousness has obviously ‘evolved’ somewhat as it exists! but I mean it’s been around for such a short time it seems so infantile so as to be compared to the first fishies who left the sea and crept onto land. I bet they wouldn’t have been adapted to the land in their early forms but still they must have wriggled about breathing air on the land. Would it have felt ‘weird’ to them cos they weren’t yet refined to this environment?

I’m thinking consciousness is similar in that it’s so ‘new’ that it hasn’t even developed sufficiently within the environment to be ‘calibrated’. Of course it doesn’t feel ‘weird’ to think though…

So did consciousness too evolve for the tribal societies? I could speculate that consciousness was the main thing which spurted out of our increased sociability- Some evo biologist who’s name escapes me said it might have evolved to work out what other humans were thinking. This seems rather plausible as even in practical day to day city life for myself many of the ‘old’ instincts and emotions become redundant and get in the way of cool calculating rationality. Also being big and strong is (usually) redundant and ineffective compared to outwitting someone in today’s society. Using my brain usually reigns supreme when plotting against other humans (to use a Machiavellian/selfish gene description of city living). Likewise it could also be viable for working with others too in terms of cooperation for large tasks etc. The point is the same, thinking and rationality seem to be the best ‘tech’ for the job in most cases over the older more ‘brutish’ parts of one’s nature. It is infinitely more versatile than the outdated and clunky old instincts and emotions etc.

emotions aren’t refined instincts, they are instincts. So is our ability to learn a language, use our minds to solve problems. Instinct just means something which comes naturally because it evolved as part of your species natural aptitude. our intelligence is instinctual, an instinct.

consciousness is just a concept. What we call consciousness is a wide array of adaptations, specialized neuromachinery to solve historical problems. Parts of what we call consciousness are obviously ancient adaptations.

Self awareness is a critical part of consciousness but its not exactly new and can evolve independently: apes, dolphins and birds have all evolved sophisticated levels of self awareness.

an episodic memory

theory of mind, the ability to precieve others as thinking agents with intentional and internal goals/desires.

consciousness is just a mix of specialized neuromachinery, a mix of adaptations, some are new, most are old.

some aspects of human consciousness evolved in hunter gatherer societies.

Parts of our consciousness are adaptations evolved during hunter gatherer societies to hunter gatherer societies. But many aspects of human consciousness evolved in our ape ancestors, even further back our mammalian ancestors.

parts of our conscious experience arise from adaptations that arose in ancient reptilians.

Like, huge, meaningful aspects of our everyday consciousness only exist because we evolved from mammals and apes and we took the associated brain structure and behavior with us. If you look at a mammalian brain next to a human brain theres mass similarities there.

Yea the basic dopamine reward system goes back to the reptiles doesn’t it? I love my dopamine rushes.

It’s funny how I think how most ppl still live on these ‘lower circuits’ (to use leary/Robert Antopn Wilson terminology) of survive and replicate (myself included).

I’d say I’m really rational so use that alot however of course my emotions are still interconnected to that but it seems the more rational I am in life the better I do. I don’t really buy the whole ‘you gotta stop thinking and trust your intuition’. If acting rationally you know when to act on your emotions and when not to so that point is pretty moot imo.

Dear scientific grammarphone Cyrene,

Overall this reasoned presentation on consciousness-as-adaptation has been charitable and admirable, in that you constructively recognize that each and every aspect of Man, from miniscule skin features to the parallel computation brilliance that is the CNS, has been earned by him (as it were) in countless past incarnations, step by step, during a process now called the “evolution”.

Why, though, do you disregard the obvious original intent of the question here? Surely, you understand as well as anyone, what was really meant when the OP mentioned “consciousness”- it was certainly not the set of curiously blended hardware/software adaptations you have readily offered on a silver platter, pickled in formaline! The question posed was quite a philosophical one, about the Owner of all these fine things, the very same owner that travelled the long and windy path from the mineral to the mammalian kingdom, and has lately developed into “Man”.

The OP is a shy person asking you, “Do you happen to know who I am?” - and here you rush to begin a bodily dissection, without even having a look at him first! Answer therefore, the tricky baggage question – why exactly are you yourself not a ladybug or sperm whale?

-WL

Below I’ve posted a bit from a Kalton essay that you might find interesting. It is a philosophical, not a scientific, approach to the question but occasionally it is worth pursuing that angle.

The excerpt does touch on the balance that life strikes in how it adapts. Some lifeforms reproduce incredibly quickly, with fluid genomes changing this-way-and-that. Quick generation time and high mutation rates let these organisms adapt very quickly to pretty much any situation. The other strategy involves reproducing more slowly and have each member of the species learn from the environment through engagement. Some bacteria represent an extreme end of the first strategy (viruses, if you count them as life, would represent a very extreme end of this strategy), whereas animals (especially?) humans represent an extreme end of the other strategy. Both have their merits.

Consciousness is a necessary element in the second strategy. If you aren’t aware of your environment, you can’t respond to it and learn from it. Where did consciousness begin? Well, we’d need to define what consciousness is. When bacteria communicate with each other using homoserine lactones and other signaling molecules, it represents a version of the second strategy discussed above. Does that represent consciousness? I’d say that it does represent a type of consciousness. But that is a philosophical question, hence the philosophical excerpt:

The above essay was illuminating.

“The hawk interdepends more broadly and flexibly, but to describe this freedom as independence would be an illusion.”

Is a more broad and flexible interdependence a substrate for creative problem solving? Certainly the illusion does lie in being free from this organic interdependence, but does the broadness and flexibility entail an ease of struggle or, oppositely, an enhanced struggle. This is where humanity is defined. On the edge of this struggle; progress or sustainability? Our protracted evolution is contingent upon environmental sustenance, as this is where we derive our ability to be creative and thus progress, however this protraction impinges upon the very environment in which we rely.

The two extremes that were discussed above are very real, and humanity represents a most extreme end.
“…we recognize life when we see things somehow ‘making a living’. That is, things begin in an active way to maintain an existence in terms of something else: amino acids have no need for protozoa, but protozoa require amino acids.”\

When will we come to realize that the entity in which we place our reliance, our interdependence, is not reciprocated. If anything it is a parasitic privilege. Our struggle does not only originate on our external reliance, but on our very real internal reliance (homeostatic mechanisms that allow the bio-machine to function). This internal reliance has become subordinate, subconscious autonomic processes no longer require attentional faculty. Subordinating this most necessary internal reliance has only afforded us the ability to focus primarily on that external reliance. Both exist however, and we somehow are in repose, in the static between.

Glad you liked it.

The electron and the em waves are physical reality
Lorentz proved: there isn’t electromagnetic waves without Electron
The brain produces some kind of em waves
It means every thought has a frequency ( Electroencephalography)
Consciousness is also physical reality, some kind of em waves
The Information ( some basis of Consciousness) can be transfer
only by Electromagnetic waves.
The source of these em waves must be an Electron
Therefore I say,
only Electron can be the Quantum of Information / Consciousness
We don’t have any other theory of information’s transfers.
The source of the consciousness must be an Electron

So, where does consciousness fit into the evolution debate?
I think the evolution of consciousness is interacted
with evolution of electron .
But . . . . What is Electron ?
Nobody knows.
We need time to understand an Electron
And when we understand the Electron
we will know the Ultimate Nature of Reality and
the material basis of Consciousness

Israel Sadovnik Socratus
==========================.

Like the sun, the electron provides energy to a finite universe to survive it. If there were none, the body would get cold and all the cells would die. Maybe. I don’t know much about the fucking thing but I could only imagine it as such, a sustaining element within a finite shell.

So if the sun is the principle cause for all life on Earth, what do the electrons mean to the body? Isn’t each individual electron important to the structure of the entire complex?